[nagdu] Certification was RE: Uber sued for allegedlyrefusingrides to the blind andputting a dog in the trunk

Fri Sep 12 12:08:50 UTC 2014

Raven, well said.  I totally agree.
I don't have a problem with anyone's well-behaved dog.  And I don't have a 
problem with a business asking a badly-behaved dog of any sort to be taken 
outside.
Tracy

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Raven Tolliver via nagdu" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
To: "Dan Weiner" <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>; "NAGDU Mailing List,the National 
Association of Guide Dog Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 7:52 AM
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Certification was RE: Uber sued for 
allegedlyrefusingrides to the blind andputting a dog in the trunk

> Valerie,
> The solution to the certification problem is not to penalize or make
> things harder for those of us who are being honest. The solution is
> proper education, and consequences for those who are frauds. I think
> if business employees knew what they could and couldn't ask of an
> assistance dog handler, and knew that they could kick someone out for
> having an ill-behaved or unclean animal, or for having a dog that is
> obviously not an assistance dog, that would solve a lot of problems.
> Or, if we were like citizens of other countries who take
> responsibility for their animals, training and containing them, there
> wouldn't be an issue with bringing your dog in public places.
>
> On 9/12/14, Dan Weiner via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Now I'm wondering if they meant the actual trunk where you put suitcases
>> and
>> close her up or maybe the back part of say a van where you just have this
>> open area behind the seats?
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry D Keeler
>> via nagdu
>> Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 5:38 AM
>> To: Nicole Torcolini; NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of 
>> Guide
>> Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Certification was RE: Uber sued for
>> allegedlyrefusingrides to the blind andputting a dog in the trunk
>>
>> Again Nicole, I'm more interested why they put the dog in the trunk and 
>> why
>> the handler let it happen. My guess is that they needed the ride and they
>> felt bullied into conceeding. Ideas and oppinions will keep going on the
>> other issue but putting dogs in the trunk is not usually done over here 
>> in
>> this country with pets or service animals! But being a service animal, it
>> should have benn what our dogs do and riding at they're feet. 
>> Certification
>> or not isn't really a good excuse to put the dog in the boot for any
>> reason!
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Nicole Torcolini via nagdu" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> To: "'Valerie Gibson'" <valandkayla at gmail.com>; "'NAGDU Mailing List,the
>> National Association of Guide Dog Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2014 11:14 PM
>> Subject: [nagdu] Certification was RE: Uber sued for allegedly
>> refusingrides
>> to the blind andputting a dog in the trunk
>>
>>
>>> We have been round and round on this list about this topic numerous
>>> times.
>>> I know that some of the newer members were not included in those
>>> discussions, so I will summarize here, but I would really prefer not
>>> to start the whole discussion again as it always ends up in the same
>> place.
>>> The idea of certification sounds fine in theory, but, as soon as you
>>> start filling in the fine grained details, it becomes apparent that
>>> the cons outweigh the pros. Who will do the certification? How do you
>>> make sure that that entity does not purposefully deny people
>>> certification? What will the dogs be certified in? It may be fairly
>>> straightforward for guide dogs, but there are several different kinds
>>> of service dogs, many of which are specifically trained to meat the
>>> unique needs of their handlers. Who will pay for the certification?
>>> How will people get to the certification center?
>>> And, above all, this will not stop people from making fake
>>> certification cards or certificates or whatever. It also most
>>> certainly will not change the perceptions that some people have about
>>> service dogs. Yes, some people had a bad experience with a fake
>>> service dog, and that is why they don't like service dogs. But some
>>> people just don't like service dogs for no good reason, and having a
>>> certification process is not going to change that.
>>> And, to end with a quote from the email for today for A Word a Day:
>>> A THOUGHT FOR TODAY:
>>> You may not be able to change the world, but at least you can
>>> embarrass the guilty. -Jessica Mitford, author, journalist, and civil
>>> rights activist
>>> (1917-1996)
>>>
>>> Nicole and Lexia
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Valerie
>>> Gibson via nagdu
>>> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2014 10:55 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Uber sued for allegedly refusing rides to the
>>> blind andputting a dog in the trunk
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I posted a rant on facebook about something relating to this, so I'll
>>> say it again here.
>>>
>>> The only thing that gives your guide dog programs credibility is the
>>> work they've put into making the public aware of the fact that they
>>> train guide dogs.
>>>
>>> If I printed out a card saying, "American Akita Guide dog Foundation",
>>> made it look all official,etc, it legally would have the same merrit
>>> as a guide dog program, even though there is no "american Akita Guide
>>> Dog foundation".
>>>
>>> With dog trainers: Your next door neighbor could put a sign in his
>>> yard saying, "bob's dog training Business", and he would be in his
>>> right to call himself a dog trainer.
>>>
>>> There is no such thing as a licensed dog trainer.  For the trainers of
>>> guide dogs, those owner trained and those in programs, the only thing
>>> that trainer has that an ordinary citizen doesn't have is knowledge in
>>> dog training and, maybe, a certificate from a program to show that
>>> they do have knowledge in dog training.
>>>
>>> I've said that I intended to become certified by the CCPDT, and while
>>> this would be an achievement for me, it would make me no less
>>> qualified to train dogs than someone who has my knowledge but does not
>>> have the certificate.
>>> In fact, the only thing that would make my certificate valid is the
>>> fact that the certification council of professional dog trainers is
>>> publicly recognized as an institution that works with dog trainers.
>>>
>>> This is why the business of service dogs and their handlers and
>>> trainers in public places is so grey.
>>>
>>> In my oppinion, if we licensed dog training and made trainers need a
>>> license to train service animals, we might be able to illiminate the
>>> number of people who come into shops with an ESA (emotional suport
>>> animal" or "therapy dog" who is just a pet.
>>>
>>> I believe ID cards could be given out to handlers of service dogs that
>>> would point to the trainer or something.  And because dog training
>>> would be a license, the trainer could face reprecussions by falsifying
>>> any information.
>>>
>>> This suggestion is just one that's recently come to mind.  I'm not
>>> sure how, legistically, dog trainer licenses would work or how that it
>>> should affect the handler, but I think it should be done for service
>>> dogs at the very least.  Partly this would seek to iliminate the
>>> problem of fake service dogs in shops mostly it would educate people
>>> on dog behavior and everything else I've been saying that people
>>> should study.  In order to become certified by the  CCPDT, you need X
>>> amount of hours working with dogs, and you need to take a test on dog
>>> behavior, training edicate, etc.  It does cost, but if you're training
>>> your own dog, it's cheaper than that.  It is time consuming, but no
>>> more than training your own dog.
>>>
>>> In a nutshell, ID cards or no, they legally have no merrit accept
>>> maybe by some institution or state standards, and even that is grey
>>> because dog training isn't licensed practice.
>>>
>>> Anyway, just my thoughts.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sep 11, 2014, at 11:31 AM, Amber M via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Abby,
>>>> Before I say anything about the situation, I would like to say that
>>>> this
>>> is just my opinion. So it is Benoni means correct, or upheld by 
>>> majority.
>>> But. And I do reiterate, this is my opinion. When someone who attends
>>> a guy dog school shows an ID to get out of a stressful situation, they
>>> then make it difficult for the owner trained guy dog who comes after
>>> them. Because the business then expects that an ID will be shown, and
>>> can be expected.
>>>>
>>>> I will not pretend that it is easier to stand up for your rights when
>>>> you
>>> are in a hurry, or when the person just doesn't seem to get it, etc. 
>>> etc.
>>> But just like you don't want a blind person who attends a school
>>> before you, to make you look like you are not capable of doing for
>>> yourself, and wished they would take that extra moment to do something
>>> for themselves, owner trainers have a really hard time going behind
>>> program trained dog handlers, who do tend to use their ID a lot.
>>>> Again, just my opinion, and by no means is it what everyone else
>>>> believes.
>>>> Best,
>>>> Amber
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>>> On Sep 11, 2014, at 11:34 AM, Abigail Bolling via nagdu
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem of explaining  that the dog is a service animal, I know
>>>>> this
>>> may sound harsh, but as far as I know, the service animal schools give
>>> there handlers ID cards for a reason. A lot of Dog users that I know
>>> refuse to carry them, to which my opinion is a lot of situations could
>>> possibly be avoided just by showing an ID card.
>>>>> I know we shouldn't have to show an ID card to make our point and it
>>>>> is
>>> certainly annoying, but sometimes it is just easier to go that extra
>>> stupid step to save a little headache later.
>>>>> Also, I know I said this on another post about this article, but it
>>>>> is
>>> the responsibility of the handler to know where their dog is at all
>>> times, so why did the handler let the dog be taken away from him and
>>> placed in the trunk in the first place.
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Abby and my little Shadow, Jada.
>>>>>
>>>>> Abigail Bolling
>>>>> Wright State University: Social Work
>>>>>
>>>>> "Keep a smile on your face and a song in your heart, and just let
>>>>> the music play." (Julie Anderson Diamond)
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sep 11, 2014, at 8:33 AM, Ginger Kutsch via nagdu
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Uber sued for allegedly refusing rides to the blind and putting a
>>>>>> dog in the trunk
>>>>>>
>>>>>> By Gail Sullivan September 10 Washington Post
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Source:
>>>>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/09/10/uber-s
>>>>>> u
>>>>>> ed-for-a
>>>>>> llegedly-refusing-rides-to-the-blind-and-putting-a-dog-in-the-trunk
>>>>>> /
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> An advocacy group for the blind is suing the app-based ride-sharing
>>>>>> service Uber, alleging the company discriminates against passengers
>>>>>> with service dogs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The federal civil rights suit filed Tuesday by the California
>>>>>> chapter of the National Federation of the Blind cites instances in
>>>>>> California and elsewhere when blind Uber customers summoned a car
>>>>>> only to be refused a ride once the driver saw them with a service
>>>>>> dog. In some cases, drivers allegedly abandoned blind travelers in
>>>>>> extreme weather and charged cancellation fees after denying them
>>>>>> rides,
>>> the complaint said.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The complaint filed in a Northern California District Court cites
>>>>>> one instance where a California UberX driver put a service dog in
>>>>>> the trunk and refused to pull over when the blind passenger
>>>>>> realized
>>> where the animal was.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On another occasion a passenger was trying to explain that his dog
>>>>>> was not a pet but a service animal when the driver allegedly cursed
>>>>>> at him and accelerated abruptly, nearly injuring the dog and
>>>>>> striking the passenger's friend, who is also blind, with an open
>>>>>> car
>>> door.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The group said it's aware of more than 30 times blind customers
>>>>>> were denied rides in violation of the American with Disabilities
>>>>>> Act and California state law.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As a result, blind passengers are confronting unexpected delays and
>>>>>> "face the degrading experience of being denied a basic service that
>>>>>> is available to all other paying customers," the complaint said.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Services such as Uber are quickly supplanting traditional taxis, a
>>>>>> service blind people rely on due to the limitations of public
>>> transportation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The National Federation of the Blind wants Uber to educate its
>>>>>> drivers about disability rights and punish the violators in
>>>>>> addition to providing a way for disabled passengers to immediately
>>>>>> register complaints when they are refused rides because of service
>> dogs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In a statement reported by the San Francisco Examiner, Uber said
>>>>>> its policy is to terminate drivers who refuse to transport service
>>>>>> animals. "The Uber app is built to expand access to transportation
>>>>>> options for all, including users with visual impairments and other
>>> disabilities," the statement said.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However, Uber allegedly told some passengers it can't control what
>>>>>> drivers do because they are independent contractors. The company
>>>>>> advised them to let drivers know about their animals ahead of time,
>>>>>> said the Federation, which filed suit after Uber rejected its
>>>>>> request to
>>> negotiate a solution.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The group claims the company closely monitors and controls its
>>>>>> drivers by managing payments and services through the app, and by
>>>>>> assessing driver performance based on customer feedback.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In September 2013,California's Public Utilities Commission
>>>>>> classified UberX as a transportation provider because it functions
>>>>>> like a taxi dispatch. The commission also said that UberX may not
>>>>>> discriminate against the disabled, the Federation noted.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Figuring out whether to treat Uber like a traditional taxi service
>>>>>> or something else is the subject of heated debate across the
>>>>>> country. Taxi services are required by federal law to serve the
>>>>>> disabled, even if drivers are independent contractors.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>> for
>>> nagdu:
>>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/violingirl30794%
>>>>>> 4
>>>>>> 0gmail.com
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>> for
>>> nagdu:
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/thetraveler87%40g
>>>>> m
>>>>> ail.com
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nagdu mailing list
>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nagdu:
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/valandkayla%40gmai
>>>> l
>>>> .com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nagdu mailing list
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nagdu:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40waveca
>>> ble.co
>>> m
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nagdu mailing list
>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nagdu:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/lkeeler%40comcast.n
>>> et
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nagdu:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dcwein%40dcwein.cnc.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nagdu mailing list
>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nagdu:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/ravend729%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Raven
> "if God didn't make it, don't eat it." - John B. Symes, D.V.M.
> http://dogtorj.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nagdu mailing list
> nagdu at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nagdu:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/carcione%40access.net
> 