[nagdu] My Experience of Having My Dog Taken Away
Cindy Ray
cindyray at gmail.com
Fri Aug 21 16:17:32 UTC 2015
Yes, this is all true what Aleeha has said. However, some of the schools
will give you ownership after a period of a year or two. Now I don't know if
you need to have turned in all medical records and the like or not to get
that. I got my dog at The Seeing Eye. When you walk out the door of that
school, the dog is yours. The school maintains ownership of the harness, so
technically you are to return it when you get another dog, or this is my
understanding. Everyone doesn't; I always do.
And Rachel, as for your views on ownership, I agree with you completely.
Cindy Lou Ray
cindyray at gmail.com
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Aleeha Dudley via
nagdu
Sent: Friday, August 21, 2015 11:02 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Aleeha Dudley <blindcowgirl1993 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] My Experience of Having My Dog Taken Away
Immediate ownership and conditional ownership go hand in hand. You could
have immediate ownership, but the school could impose conditions on that
ownership, like a mandatory retirement age, that make the ownership
conditional. Unconditional means ownership without such restrictions in
place.
Hope that helps.
Aleeha
> On Aug 21, 2015, at 11:55 AM, Rachel Grider via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
wrote:
>
> Please forgive me if this is an ignorant question, but what is the
difference between immediate ownership and unconditional ownership?I think I
know, but I would like some clarification.
>
> In my mind, living in fear of having your dog taken away is the result of
a much bigger issue with schools not allowing unconditional ownership. If I
complete all the requirements set forth by a particular school, but I am
only granted ownership on the condition that the school can take back my dog
if they see fit, I am essentially being told that while I am trustworthy
enough to take some responsibility, I cannot be trusted to have ultimate say
in the dog's care or training. In the eyes of the staff, I am no different
than the six-year-old who considers him/herself the owner of a pet, without
realizing that his/her parents are ready to take the pet away if they see
fit. This principal is applicable to so many other aspects of society; we
are blind, so obviously we need supervision if we are to be in charge of
anything. If we question this, we are often only patronized and told that we
are wrong. After all, us poor blind folks need to be grateful that we are
granted such luxuries at all.
>
> I understand that there are blind folks on this list who have different
feelings on this subject than I do, and I respect that. I believe that we
should never lose sight of what we are granted nowsince the ADA. Until we
reach full equality with our sighted counterparts, however, we cannot be
content. To me, the problem of unconditional ownership represents the flawed
views that sighted people often have of us and our constant struggle to
change those views.
> http//www.rachelgrider.com
>
>> On Aug 21, 2015, at 04:27, larry d keeler via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
wrote:
>>
>> Cindy, I really think that is the whole point of ownership and all.
>> That being to stop fear and intimidation from becoming an issue when
>> dealing with the schools! Otherwise, I wouldn't much care. Its
>> stories like hers that make me cringe! I also know many folks who
>> live in fear that they may have the dog pulled at any time!
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray
>> via nagdu
>> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2015 11:13 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Cc: Cindy Ray
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] My Experience of Having My Dog Taken Away
>>
>> I would like to think that everyone would really consider the things
>> that Sandra said in her post. I for one would only have immediate
>> ownership, but this is not the issue. I just think that if you have
>> to live in fear of the dog just being taken, and if in fact that does
>> happen, it is just so worth it to own your dog, so Sandra, I'm glad you
shared.
>> Cindy Lou Ray
>> cindyray at gmail.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Rachel
>> Grider via nagdu
>> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2015 7:04 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Rachel Grider <rachel.grider at gmail.com>; <President at nagdu.org>
>> <President at nagdu.org>
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] My Experience of Having My Dog Taken Away
>>
>> Hello, Sandra:
>>
>> I have never owned a guide dog, though I have considered getting one
>> and often read posts from this list.
>>
>> Thank you so much for sharing your story. It really upsets me that
>> this happened to you, and I'm sure that similar things have happened to
others.
>> When reading some of the other posts about ownership, I naively
>> assumed that the only way you could get your dog taken away was if
>> you were mistreating it. This is obviously not the case, and I now
>> realize the importance of getting my dog from a school that grants
>> unconditional ownership, should I eventually decide to get one.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Rachel
>>
>> http//www.rachelgrider.com
>>
>>> On Aug 20, 2015, at 13:11, Tara Briggs via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks so much for sharing your story. I am sorry you had such a
>>> horrible
>> experience.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On Aug 19, 2015, at 6:36 PM, S L Johnson via nagdu
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Marion:
>>>>
>>>> I'm sending this both to you and the list. I have nothing to hide.
>>>> I don't mind everyone knowing the trauma I went through. I am
>>>> proud that despite this horrible beginning, forty years later, I am
>>>> still a proud guide dog owner with a wonderful golden by my side.
>>>> Please feel free to keep my story. I hope it helps prove our point
>>>> that we need complete unconditional ownership.
>>>>
>>>> The incident was in 1976 with The Guide Dog Foundation. I had
>>>> graduated with Hogan, a male golden, in August 1976. John Byfield
>>>> had trained Hogan and on class I informed him that the dog pulled
>>>> much too hard and walked much too fast. He said it was my job to
>>>> keep up with him so, I tried my best and graduated with him. I
>>>> don't remember the exact day but, it was just before Christmas 1976
>>>> when a trainer showed up at my college dorm to take Hogan. The
>>>> reason given was my frequent falls due to multiple sclerosis. My
>>>> medical condition had nothing to do with me falling down curbs and
stairs.
>>>> Hogan had the bad habit of walking very fast right up to the curb
>>>> or steps without any slowing in pace to let me know a curb or step
>>>> was coming. This sudden stop caused me to lose my balance and fall.
>>>> John Beagel and Barry Hatten had both been working with us a lot
>>>> and Hogan was getting much better and I felt confident with our
progress.
>>>> Suddenly one day during my very busy holiday performance schedule,
>>>> I returned to hear that Barry had been looking for me. I was not
>>>> warned of his visit so wasn't there at the time. I didn't hear
>>>> anything else until two days later when John Beagel showed up and
>>>> informed me that John Byfield had sent him to pick up Hogan. I was
>>>> shocked. I thought we had been doing so much better. In a panic,
>>>> I
>> frantically faxed the contract to my father's lawyer and was told
>> that I had no choice but to give the dog to the trainer. I was
devastated.
>>>> I was just minutes away from leaving for the airport to fly home
>>>> for the Christmas break. By the time I arrived home minus my
>>>> wonderful guide, my family and their lawyer had already contacted
>>>> members of the
>> GDF Board.
>>>> Immediately my doctor sent information to them and John Beagel and
>>>> Barry Hatten gave their opinions of my work with Hogan. The board
>>>> decided that John Byfield had acted unfairly by taking Hogan. They
>>>> agreed with my doctor that I was physically capable of working
>>>> Hogan as long as he could slow down a bit and not pull so hard. I
>>>> got him back right after GDF opened up after New Years. What
>>>> should have been a great first Christmas with my new guide, turned
>>>> out to be a
>> horrible traumatic experience.
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately, that wasn't my only bad experience with John
>>>> Byfield's unfair actions. When Hogan retired due to city stress a
>>>> few years later, John Byfield again did the same thing in October
>>>> 1979 after another graduate complained to him about my very young
>>>> new dog, Bart's behavior at a solo recital I had given the previous
>>>> day. As I was singing, Bart, a very playful young immature male
>>>> golden, was lying at my feet and I was holding the leash. Bart
>>>> very quietly and sneakily slipped his somewhat loose chain collar
>>>> and ran around the audience trying to play. I immediately called
>>>> him and after a bit more frantic running around he came back to me
>>>> and I put his collar back on. I kept a tighter hold on the leash
>>>> and collar and Bart's behavior and guiding were fine the rest of
>>>> the day. The next day, My accompanist, also, another GDF grad
>>>> called to complain to John Byfield. I suddenly get a call that
>>>> someone was on their way to my apartment to pick up Bart. I wasn't
>>>> given the chance to defend myself or Bart who was still so young
>>>> and managed to slip out of that too loose collar. All John Byfield
>>>> cared about is how upset this other graduate was about what Bart had
done and that it was my fault.
>>>> He said that it looked bad for GDF and it was obvious I should not
>>>> have a guide dog. I wasn't given the chance to fight because the
>>>> board wouldn't listen this time, they just took the word and
>>>> reacted to the pressure from of another grad. We all know Stuff
>>>> happens with new dogs and although I was also very embarrassed, I
>>>> knew that it wasn't the end of the world and no excuse to have my dog
taken away.
>>>> This left me alone in a questionable neighborhood without my dog.
>>>> I was terrified to be walking alone with just a cane. Two nights
>>>> later after leaving the drug store with my medications, I was
>>>> mugged by a group of teen boys who grabbed me saying, "now you
>>>> don't have that dog for protection so, we got you, give us your purse
and bag of meds".
>> I was so afraid of walking alone after that night that I had to stay
>> with friends until I could get accepted to another guide dog school a
>> few months later.
>>>>
>>>> After those traumatic experiences, I will never attend a school
>>>> that will not give me unconditional ownership. It has been many
>>>> years since then but, the horror and trauma remain as clear today.
>>>> I still feel very vulnerable and I'm still afraid to walk alone
>>>> without a dog by my side. I'm still very worried if I need to ask
>>>> for a trainer to help with any issues even though I own the dog.
>>>> Those two experiences left me with the constant fear of suddenly
>>>> without reason having my dog taken away. I realize it will not
>>>> happen due to my
>> ownership but the knot of fear is always there.
>>>>
>>>> . Another story shows how my having complete ownership allowed me
>>>> to keep my dog. In February 2002, a serious back injury from afall
>>>> on the ice along with a severe relapse of multiple sclerosis, I
>>>> ended up having to use a manual wheelchair. At that time, I was
>>>> working Cinnamon, a golden from Leader Dogs. With no other way to
>>>> get Cinnamon out, get myself to medical appointments and do
>>>> shopping and other errands, I taught Cinnamon to guide me in the
>>>> wheelchair. When Leader Dogs found out over a year later, they
>>>> disagreed with her guiding me in the wheelchair. Despite the
>>>> evaluation by two well-known wheelchair guide dog trainers, who
>>>> said we were an excellent very well-trained safe wheelchair guide
>>>> team, leader still refused to acknowledge it could be done. Due to
>>>> the contract I had signed, I owned Cinnamon but, Leader Dogs still
>>>> owned the harness and could ask for it back at any time. So, I
>>>> gave them the harness, collar, tags leashes and ID card which all said
Leader Dogs on them.
>>>> I got a harness for Cinnamon and continued to work her until her
>>>> retirement many years later. With Cinnamon's help, I gradually got
>>>> back the strength and stamina to walk again and when she finally
>>>> retired
>> in 2008 I was able to train with Tara, my golden who walked slow and
>> helped with balance.
>>>>
>>>> As you can see, I've lived through the negatives of not having
>>>> ownership and the positives of having it. I hope my stories will
>>>> help our fight for complete and unconditional ownership.
>>>>
>>>> Sandra
>>>>
>>>> <S L Johnson.vcf>
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