[nagdu] Ownership continued

Thu Aug 27 01:48:10 UTC 2015

I believe most schools do seek input from students and graduates and
make decisions based on this information.  I have attended the same
school for 25 years and there have been many changes during that time.
I assume people also talk about the ownership policy if it is a
concern to them.

On 8/26/15, Danielle Sykora via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Something that many people often overlook when saying there should be
> freedom of choice is that graduates from several different programs
> which have conditional ownership have expressed dissatisfaction with
> this policy. If there are some graduates that feel this way, how do we
> know if they are the majority or minority? Shouldn't the programs seek
> feedback from their graduates and at least consider revising their
> policies accordingly? As others have pointed out, not everyone has the
> option to simply switch schools and get a dog in the typical waiting
> period. I don't really see any advantage to the handler for the school
> to retain ownership.
>
> Danielle and Thai
> On 8/26/15, Star Gazer via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 				Sheri, what got you thinking about
>> conditional ownership?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sherry Gomes
>> via
>> nagdu
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 7:58 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Sherry Gomes <sherriola at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Ownership continued
>>
>> I absolutely agree with you Dan. I just never looked at the big picture
>> and
>> thought of all the other implications of conditional ownership until
>> about
>> ten or so years ago. There's a much bigger picture and it really has
>> nothing
>> to do with what kind of a handler I or anyone else may be.
>>
>> Sherry
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dan Weiner via
>> nagdu
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 5:35 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Dan Weiner <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
>> Subject: [nagdu] Ownership continued
>>
>> Hi all.
>> I will quote you, Sherri, not to flame you but just I wanted to use a
>> quote
>> from your post to illustrate something. You said you weren't worried
>> about
>> ownership and I quote:
>> I was confident they'd never take away my dog arbitrarily because I knew
>> I
>> was a very good handler and my dogs received the best of care and love
>> and
>> work I could give.
>>
>> So many times during ownership discussions I've had either with different
>> schools I was attending or fellow grads it is assumed that if the schools
>> try to take away a dog or reclaim the dog it is because the handler did
>> something wrong and of course everyone is convinced that they wouldn't
>> have
>> that happen to them because of the quoted reason above.
>> I think guide dog users I've met over the years, by and large, ninety
>> percent or more do the best to keept heir dogs healthy and happy so
>> therefore a school may indeed have another reason to reclaim a dog than
>> supposed abuse or misuse.  When I've gone to schools that held ownership
>> even for say 2 years there was alwaysys the concern in t hback of my mind
>> that if I in quotes "didn't do things right" that something would happen
>> so
>> you did tend to be careful what you said about things to your school.
>> Just
>> consider this,  guys  when thinking about ownership.  A school retaining
>> ownership grants the organization power over you if nothing else
>> psychological power.
>> I know we've beaten this to death but I thought I'd weigh in.
>> Yours most sincerely,
>>
>> Dan the man with Parker the hound dog
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Sherry Gomes
>> via
>> nagdu
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2015 5:20 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Cc: Sherry Gomes
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a Straw Argument: Freedom of choice?
>>
>> Yes, that's it for me. When I applied for my first dog, in the seventies,
>> GDB was the only school who would give a person with my physical
>> conditions
>> a guide dog. I was seventeen and not thinking then about issues like
>> ownership, and for years I didn't think about it. I was confident they'd
>> never take away my dog arbitrarily because I knew I was a very good
>> handler
>> and my dogs received the best of care and love and work I could give.
>> Eventually, after some other life issues and some things that happened in
>> regard to GDB and me and GDB in general that made me want the security of
>> ownership. So, I started getting ownership as soon as I could, which as
>> after a year. Last time, I applied at several schools, which was the
>> first
>> time forty years I'd ever considered it. The other school that would
>> probably have accepted me wanted to put me in a special needs program and
>> told me it would take at least two years to get a dog, whereas GDB had
>> already accepted me for retraining and had a dog in mind. GDB had never
>> put
>> me in any kind of special needs program, and they had forty years of
>> finding
>> me the right dog, even as my physical condition grows worse as I get
>> older.
>> So, I felt that getting the right dog for me without having to wait two
>> years had to take precedence over other considerations. I would have been
>> very happy if I could have gotten ownership upon graduation, as I believe
>> we
>> all should, but getting the right dog was most important. This will
>> probably
>> end up being my last dog, as I'm not sure I can make it through training
>> again, and I have ownership of her now, but even if this is my last, I
>> won't
>> stop working for the rights of all guide dog handlers, including
>> ownership.
>>
>> Sherry
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Star Gazer via
>> nagdu
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 6:52 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Star Gazer <pickrellrebecca at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a Straw Argument: Freedom of choice?
>>
>> 				Maybe your average consumer does have a
>> choice. I'm thinking of folks like Sheri and Rox because you both have
>> posted about your circumstances. It's my take that Sheri can't go to a
>> program other then GDB due to her fused knee and a few other problems.
>> Rox
>> it seems can't go to a program at all.
>> These women are locked into the models they're in.
>> How would consumer choice work for them?
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tina Thomas
>> via
>> nagdu
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 7:42 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Tina Thomas <judotina48kg at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a Straw Argument: Freedom of choice?
>>
>> Yeah exactly! I'm sorry but consumer's have the choice to attend any
>> guide
>> dog program they wish. Now, if ownership is a make it or break it deal
>> for
>> individual's then stands to reason that folks would choose a program that
>> has that policy. Also, I don't subscribe to the notion that consumers own
>> the dog but the school pay for all flea and tick medication as well as
>> all
>> vet costs associated with the dog. I'm sorry folks, that is not
>> unconditional ownership. I know that I am the lone wolf when it comes  to
>> this topic, but that is  how I view this topic. Now, with that said, it
>> doesn't mean that I won't continue to work to insure that all guide dog
>> users rights are protected. Another issue I am having with this whole
>> ownership policy is the notion of people having their dogs taken away
>> based
>> on either the school's evaluation and or some busy body calling the
>> school
>> complaining about a handler and the treatment of the dog. I have not
>> heard
>> of any case where the school has just come in and taken the dog without
>> probable cause in a longtime. Now can there be errors on both sides, the
>> answer is yes!  However, in the cases I have come across in recent years,
>> the school was justified in taking the actions they deemed necessary  for
>> the safety of both the handler and dog. Maybe its time for NAGDU to put
>> out
>> a survey asking about the policies' and practices of all schools and if
>> people are honest, then we would have some statistical data to support
>> the
>> ownership argument.  JMTS.
>> Tina
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marion
>> Gwizdala
>> via nagdu
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 3:47 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Cc: Marion Gwizdala
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a Straw Argument: Freedom of choice?
>>
>> Aleeha,
>>
>> 	I understand that this may be the message; however, I am trying to
>> understand the logic of the "freedom of choice" argument. If there is no
>> difference in the practical implementation of ownership vs. probation,
>> what
>> benefits are gleaned by the policy. If I buy a house, I am responsible
>> for
>> the upkeep of the house, paying the taxes, cutting the grass, and
>> repairing
>> items. If I rent the house, generally someone else maintains the physical
>> plant, cuts the grass, and makes necessary repairs. It may cost more to
>> rent
>> than own, but there is a benefit in doing so. There is also the reality
>> that
>> my investment in the property does not increase my asset, only the assets
>> of
>> the landlord. Likewise, I am at the mercy of the landlord who could
>> arbitrarily decide to evict me if I do not have a binding lease or refuse
>> to
>> renew my lease without just cause.
>>
>> 	If the training program treats its consumers the same whether they
>> own their dog or simply have custody, what is the advantage to the
>> parties
>> for not transferring ownership? In the cases of custody, there is no
>> benefit
>> to the consumer, as the guide dog user is just as responsible for the
>> care
>> of the dog as if they owned the dog. On the other hand, should the
>> training
>> program arbitrarily and capriciously decide to take the dog away, the
>> consumer has no recourse. This arrangement is very one-sided and the
>> consumer has no protection. The challenge is that most consumers would
>> assert their program would not do such a thing. And they may be right, as
>> it
>> stands today. Contracts spell out specific conditions under which the
>> parties agree to conduct themselves and anything less than ownership puts
>> the consumer at risk of interference. This is the very thing that has
>> happened at Fidelco. The new administration does not have the same
>> respect
>> for the consumer as the previous administration. Fidelco's CEO, Eliot
>> Russman, is proud of the section of the agreement that gives Fidelco the
>> right to repossess the dog at any time and for any reason. I also believe
>> he
>> likes the fact that this absolutist statement is, in his own words,
>> "section
>> 'd', like dog!" He made a specific emphasis of this fact when we spoke
>> about
>> it. What an oxymoron! And then he went on to share that, politically, he
>> was
>> a Libertarian. Well, so much for individual liberty!  In fact, the
>> current
>> administration has categorically stated on the record that, in the words
>> of
>> their COO, Julie Unwinn,  consumers have no rights because they do not
>> pay
>> for the dog!
>>
>> 	One may trust the current administration of the program from which
>> they receive their dogs but that, too, could change overnight! Ownership
>> agreements protect both parties equally. Custody agreements are
>> unilateral.
>> Consumers have no rights under such arrangements; all the rights are on
>> the
>> side of the program. And this is freedom of choice?
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala
>>
>>
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Aleeha Dudley
>> via
>> nagdu
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 6:01 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Cc: Aleeha Dudley
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a Straw Argument: Freedom of choice?
>>
>> I think what she meant was that we have a choice to go to whichever
>> school
>> we choose. This means that if we want ownership, we should go to a school
>> that offers it. While I do not agree with this sentiment, I do believe
>> that
>> that was the meaning behind the message.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Aug 25, 2015, at 5:40 PM, Danielle Ledet via nagdu
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Marian,  agree with regards to Sandra's story. OMG, that the GDB
>>> representative would publicly state that at convention and then,
>>> totally back out one-on-one over the phone! I wonder if Mike was
>>> dismissed for allowing your voice to be heard? I think tina meant that
>>> it was her choice to vote either way on the resolution.
>>>
>>>> On 8/25/15, Sherry Gomes via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> I wonder why the schools that don't give ownership immediately seem
>>>> to think that a blind person is more likely to abuse, neglect or
>>>> misuse a dog than a sighted person who goes down to the humane
>>>> society, fills out a few papers and walks off with a new pet. T me,
>>>> that's what conditional ownership implies. We don't trust you to take
>>>> care of your dog in the best way, so we're going to withhold
>>>> ownership until we decide you are worthy. And yes, I have gotten all
>>>> my dogs from GDB, so I attend a school with conditional ownership.
>>>> and I don't like it. I have other reasons for going to GDB, but I
>>>> don't like their ownership policy and have been trying to get on
>>>> their alumni board, specifically so I can try to argue for a policy
>>>> change. Not that I really think it will do any good.
>>>>
>>>> Sherry
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael
>>>> Hingson via nagdu
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 2:06 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Cc: Michael Hingson; 'Tina Thomas'
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a Straw Argument: Freedom of choice?
>>>>
>>>> Actually Tina,
>>>>
>>>> There is more than one school in each of those countries. However,
>>>> people from both of those lands have traveled to the U.S. as well as
>>>> other countries to get their guide dogs.
>>>>
>>>> The freedom of choice issue notwithstanding the schools offering
>>>> conditional ownership and/or no ownership continue to hold in one
>>>> form or another to old ideas of guide dog ownership and the
>>>> "obligations" of the schools. You are right that they don't get on
>>>> board, but that is because they don't want to and often this is
>>>> because they do not value blind people the way we do.
>>>> While they might deny this their arguments are the same ones we have
>>>> heard many times before.
>>>>
>>>> Let's turn it around. You receive your guide dogs from a school that
>>>> does and always has granted ownership right from the start. You see
>>>> the value of this. Why are you not fighting harder to insure that all
>>>> guide dog users who go to all guide dog schools here get the same
>>>> opportunity? Isn't that what the fight for civil rights is all about?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Michael Hingson
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tina
>>>> Thomas via nagdu
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 12:51 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: Tina Thomas <judotina48kg at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] a Straw Argument: Freedom of choice?
>>>>
>>>> Marion- If my argument of freedom of choice is as thin as you make it
>>>> out to be, then why haven't the schools who have conditional
>>>> ownership got on board with you and others on this list way of
>>>> thinking. Also, in the UK and South Korea there is only one guide dog
>>>> school covering those respective countries and the consumer's
>>>> residing there either adhere to the policies of those schools or they
>>>> don't get a dog.
>>>> Tina
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marion
>>>> Gwizdala via nagdu
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 10:55 AM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Cc: Marion Gwizdala
>>>> Subject: [nagdu] a Straw Argument: Freedom of choice?
>>>>
>>>> Tina,
>>>>
>>>>    I know you assert you voted against the resolution on the grounds
>>>> of freedom of choice. I am confused, though, on what choice of the
>>>> consumer is limited by affording unconditional ownership upon
>>>> completion
>> of training.
>>>> Is
>>>> it the choice to be protected from unwarranted interference by the
>>>> training program? Is it the choice to have the dog removed
>>>> arbitrarily and without cause? Is it the choice to be fearful that
>>>> the program might get a call from someone who decides to retaliate
>>>> against and individual by filing a false report of abuse? Is it the
>>>> choice of being hesitant to contact the training program to seek
>>>> assistance on a behavioral or safety issue because the program may
>>>> think the user is incompetent and might take the dog away from them?
>>>> Can you please explain what freedom is impinged upon by transferring
>>>> unconditional ownership upon completion of training? Asserting that
>>>> ownership denies guide dog users freedom of choice seems illogical to
>>>> me!
>>>>
>>>>    I am of the opinion that providing ownership upon completion of
>>>> training does not compromise this freedom of choice; rather, it
>>>> enhances it.
>>>> Let me give you a specific example from the agreement I have with the
>>>> guide dog training program from which I received Sergeant. I guess I
>>>> am a bit at fault for not reading the agreement more closely;
>>>> however, within the agreement, it states that I will not let anyone
>>>> else use my guide dog. I suppose writing this message could
>>>> compromise my relationship with GDF, but I am confident in my ability
>>>> to make choices about what is best for my guide dog and what are
>>>> acceptable practices.
>>>>
>>>>    As many of you know, my wife, merry, is an experienced guide dog
>>>> user who is now between guide dogs. Last week she attended a business
>>>> function in an area in which she was unfamiliar. She asked me if she
>>>> could use Sarge for the day and I had no problem with that. Now, if
>>>> GDF wanted to, I guess they could say I breached their contract and
>>>> take my dog away from me; however, I also feel that, in the spirit of
>>>> ownership, I have the right to allow my wife to work my dog, if I
>>>> wish.
>>>>
>>>>    Now, I suppose it could be argued that the resolution limits
>>>> freedom of choice by not giving consumers the option of owning their
>>>> dog
>> or not.
>>>> If,
>>>> as the training programs assert, there is no difference in the way
>>>> one is treated or the services offered during and after the
>>>> probationary period why do the programs still have such a
>>>> paternalistic policy? The answer came from the representative of
>>>> Leader dogs for the Blind during our panel discussion, and
>>>> explanation that, like the assertion of freedom of choice, is a
>>>> questionable explanation: The donors want it! Really? Are donors
>>>> really conditioning their support of a training program on this
>>>> policy or is it an explanation that sounds good but has no merit? I
>> contend it is the latter.
>>>> In fact, I would venture to guess that a vast majority of donors do
>>>> not even know what Leader's ownership policy is, let alone make
>>>> donation decisions based upon it!
>>>>    Asserting that the resolution limits freedom of choice is that it
>>>> sounds good on the face of it but holds no water. Those programs that
>>>> transfer ownership upon completion of training offer no fewer
>>>> services than those who retain such ownership. Furthermore, those
>>>> programs that transfer ownership after a probationary period do not
>>>> offer any more limited services to their consumers once ownership is
>>>> transferred than they do prior to the transfer. The major difference
>>>> is that one voluntarily signs away their rights to the dog with which
>>>> they will form an emotional bond, an investment that, in my opinion,
>>>> is far greater than any the program has in the dog.
>>>> Rather than the resolution limiting one's freedom of choice, it
>>>> actually enhances that freedom by allowing blind people to choose
>>>> what they feel is best for them and their dogs, rather than
>>>> subjugating them to the custodial policies and practices of a
>>>> training program that asserts they know what is best. How is such an
>>>> assertion congruent with the philosophy of self-determination held by
>>>> the
>> National Federation of the blind?
>>>>
>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tina
>>>> Thomas via nagdu
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 11:28 AM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Cc: Tina Thomas
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Cause for Concern was Naming names
>>>>
>>>> Hello Everyone- I want to reiterate that I voted no on the
>>>> unconditional ownership resolution because of freedom of choice. As
>>>> I've said, there are schools in this country that offer unconditional
>>>> ownership and it is up to the consumer  to decide what program suits
>>>> their needs the best. Now, I'll go back under my rock and work on
>>>> cagdu business. *smile* Have an awesome day everyone! Oh and for
>>>> those of us who are experiencing hot weather, stay cool and give you
>>>> dogs
>> water.
>>>> Tina
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marion
>>>> Gwizdala via nagdu
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 7:46 AM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Cc: Marion Gwizdala
>>>> Subject: [nagdu] Cause for Concern was Naming names
>>>>
>>>> Dear All,
>>>>
>>>>    I think Susan's story is less about what happened 40 years ago and
>>>> more about what could potentially happen now if guide dog training
>>>> programs do not grant unconditional ownership upon completion of
>>>> training. When I sat on Southeastern Guide dogs' Graduate Advisory
>>>> Council, I was a lone voice advocating for ownership. Coincidentally,
>>>> I was the only officially appointed consumer representative. Though
>>>> most other members were affiliated with the ACB, none of them sat on
>>>> the GAC as an official representative of that organization. Those
>>>> affiliated with the ACB, especially one person, said "We don't want
>>>> to hear NFB rhetoric in these meetings!" Mike Sergeant quickly
>>>> intervened to say that my voice would be heard and asked some
>>>> questions about my stand. I was eventually able to help others
>>>> understand that my position was not a reflection of the current
>>>> administration of SEGDI but a desire to create sound, long-term
>>>> policies to protect consumers from interference should a less
>>>> responsive administration be seated in the future. During the
>>>> following meeting, the GAC proposed unconditional ownership upon
>>>> completion of training.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    Only a few short years later, Mike Sergeant was dismissed and
>>>> consumers voiced their dissatisfaction with the decision. We
>>>> protested outside the gates of SEGDI and asked to be heard. SEGDI
>>>> called the Sheriff's office to make us leave; however, we were on
>>>> public property and could not be forced to disband. We have it on
>>>> excellent authority that SEGDI videorecorded the protest and created
>>>> a blacklist of those who expressed their dissatisfaction. I often
>>>> wonder what might have happened if we had not been given ownership of
>>>> our dogs.
>>>>
>>>>    Though many opposed the resolution concerning ownership, I believe
>>>> the opposition was less about the terms of the resolution and more
>>>> about loyalty to those programs that do not grant such ownership.
>>>> Some argue that the program must have a good reason for their
>>>> policies, though the only reason we have been given is that their
>>>> donors want it. With all due respect, I don't believe the donors have
>>>> really weighed in on this nor that they have the understanding to
>>>> make such a decision. Others contend it is in the best interest of
>>>> the dog; however, those programs transferring ownership do have
>>>> processes available to them to protect the dogs from abuse or neglect
>>>> without reserving such power and influence over their consumers'
>>>> lives.
>>>>
>>>>    I believe the resolution will come up again and, when it does, it
>>>> will pass. For the time, though, there are more important issues with
>>>> which NAGDU is focused. Also, we will be more apt to make our
>>>> membership aware of the instances in which training programs insert
>>>> themselves without just cause. I do believe, though, there will
>>>> always be those who will assert there must be a good reason and
>>>> defend the paternalistic attitudes of the training programs.
>>>>
>>>>    We would like the programs to comply with our requests for new
>>>> policies and will continue to advocate for such policy changes. We
>>>> will also continue to educate our members about how such policies are
>>>> incongruent with our philosophy and overcome the objections raised.
>>>> Lastly, we will continue to press those who have publicly stated they
>>>> are willing to discuss these policies but privately tell us they have
>>>> no interest in doing so. Such was the case when Christine Benninger,
>>>> Executive Director of Guide Dogs for the Blind stated during our 2014
>>>> meeting she would discuss this with us. When I spoke with her on the
>>>> telephone, she told me GDB had no desire to discuss this with us and
>>>> no intention to change their policy. Such unprincipled behavior
>>>> demonstrates lack of integrity and is cause for concern.
>>>>
>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Debby
>>>> Phillips via nagdu
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2015 8:44 AM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users;
>>>> nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>> Cc: Debby Phillips
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Naming names
>>>>
>>>> Just a thought about names.  If I went to a great restaurant, but it
>>>> was forty years ago, I probably wouldn't share the name, because 1.
>>>> the restaurant might not even be there.  2.  If the restaurant still
>>>> exists, it might not be the same great place.
>>>> So why would I share a bad experience with an instructor that I had
>>>> forty years ago? I admit that I have done so, but hopefully not
>>>> publicly as in email.  If I have, I apologize.  It's not fair
>>>> to that person.    Debby and Nova
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Danielle
>>>
>>> Email: singingmywayin at gmail.com
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-- 
Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
(513) 607-6053