[nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers

Buddy Brannan buddy at brannan.name
Sun Aug 30 17:19:06 UTC 2015


Marianne,

Your dog doesn't make any decisions? 

Mine does, every day, all the time. It's why they work at all. Intelligent disobedience, in itself, involves making decisions. Obstacle avoidance, whether to take you around a pole to the right or left, how to clear a car blocking the sidewalk, the best way to get from the edge of a parking lot to the door which is way on the other side of the parking lot, all involve a myriad of decisions not made by you. Oh sure. You make the big decisions, like that we need to get across the parking lot, or no, I want a different door than the one you just showed me (a decision that was wrong), or yes really, I want to go out into the arctic cold, and while this is likely a very nice bench, I don't want it just now. But to say that your dog makes no decisions in your travels kind of short changes your dog, wouldn't you say? If your dog truly makes *no* decisions, you may as well use a cane. 

All that said, I agree that we need to come to a middle ground on this center thing. On the one hand, I see the center's point. They aren't experts on working with a guide dog and may not know the best way to guide your orientation training. Much as we'd all like the ideal to be that guide dog users already have those skills, we all know it isn't always true. And since it's an immersive experience and everyone at least needs to start from the same place more or less, I see what they're shooting for, especially having gone to a center, though admittedly pre-dog. On the other hand, yes, I believe there's room for the centers to give some on guide dog use in the program. I think Colorado may have, or at least may have had, the program that most accommodated guide dog use, but I don't know how things stand these days. 

--
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Phone: 814-860-3194 
Mobile: 814-431-0962
Email: buddy at brannan.name




> On Aug 30, 2015, at 12:29 PM, Marianne Denning via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Dave, first my dog doesn't make any decisions.  I make all of those
> decisions. That is a misconception about dogs.
> 
> I can see your point about the cane and acceptance of being blind.  I
> have always been blind but did not read braille in public or use a
> cane for many years because of the stigma associated with both
> activities.  It didn't help that the first time I held a cane was at
> age 14.
> 
> I will respectfully disagree with you about letting the centers do
> what they do best.  We ask the rest of the world to make acommodations
> to our blindness and the premier blindness group in the country does
> not want to make acommodations for those of us who choose a different
> approach to mobility.  I believe orientation skills need to be
> excellent whether you use a cane or dog.  The mobility skills used are
> very different.  I have used both throughout my life and prefer a dog.
> 
> On 8/29/15, David Andrews via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Raymond:
>> 
>> What I am about to say probably won't go over well
>> here.  Nevertheless, I hope people will think about what I say.
>> 
>> Our three training centers and some others, teach skills of
>> blindness, like travel, Braille and Technology, but they also teach
>> us how to accept our blindness, how to prosper in a sighted world and
>> other attitude-related factors.  I think it was Jim Omvig who said
>> they are "attitude factories."  From my time at the New Mexico
>> Commission for the Blind, and working near BLIND Inc., for over 20
>> years, I would say this is true.
>> 
>> Part of how they do this is through travel with a cane.  People are
>> moved to using a cane, having it at all times, accepting it, being
>> proud of it etc.  For most people this is where the rubber meets the
>> road in terms of adjustment to blindness.
>> 
>> Our Centers are simply not just teaching skills and the cane is an
>> integral part of the process.
>> 
>> Now, could it also be done with a dog guide.  I don't know -- I am
>> not a dog user, so wouldn't presume to say. I would think it might be
>> harder because you are using the dog to make some decisions that a
>> cane user makes.  Also, the public has different attitudes about dogs
>> and canes, so don't know what a difference this would make.
>> 
>> Anyway, our current centers do what they do in part through the
>> cane.  Let them do what they do well.
>> 
>> It seems to me that the service animal crowd should come together and
>> design a training center that does good things using a dog.
>> People have complained about our Centers and dogs for as long as we
>> have had centers, and these lists.  Do something about it!
>> 
>> Dave
>> 
>> 
>> At 07:40 PM 8/29/2015, you wrote:
>>> This is ridiculous. Teaching me how to travel better encompasses
>>> teaching me to use orientation skills in conjunction with a guide dog
>>> since that is my mobility aid of choice. Better cane technique or cane
>>> usage for mobility does not help me as a guide dog traveler. As guide
>>> dog travelers, we are required to assess our environment through our
>>> feet, hands, sound shadows, and cuing our dogs to locate certain
>>> landmarks. I don't see how cane travel translates.
>>> Cane travel and guide dog travel are diametrically different, as Julie
>>> J described in a previous post relating to Tom trying for a guide dog.
>>> If the training centers don't have these differences in mind and
>>> cannot adapt lessons accordingly, I think this is incredibly devaluing
>>> and inconsiderate of handlers relationships and use of their guide
>>> dogs.
>>> 
>>> After I got a guide dog, I received mobility training from an O&M
>>> instructor around the city that I lived in. How useful would that
>>> training have been to me if she had said, "Even though you've got your
>>> dog, I'm gonna show you how to navigate the city using your cane."
>>> What kind of sense does that make? The cane does things the dog
>>> doesn't, and vice versa. I have to use certain techniques with my dog
>>> that I never had to with a cane, and vice versa.
>>> I'm not saying the training you'll receive will be useless, but part
>>> of it will be a waste, considering there are important aspects of
>>> guide dog travel you could concentrate on instead.
>>> I understand that training centers teach much more than O&M. But I've
>>> stayed at the training center here in Michigan, and the O&M
>>> instructors there are perfectly fine with clients using their guide
>>> dogs. In fact, my instructor at the training center recommended that I
>>> apply to get a guide dog, a long while before I even considered it as
>>> an option.
>>> --
>>> Raven
>>> Founder of 1AM Editing & Research
>>> www.1am-editing.com
>>> 
>>> You are valuable because of your potential, not because of what you
>>> have or what you do.
>>> 
>>> Naturally-reared guide dogs
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/forum/nrguidedogs
>>> 
>>> On 8/29/15, Michael Hingson via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>> 
>>>> I have not been to a center as a student, but I serve on one of the
>>>> center
>>>> boards and have talked to many people who have participated in the
>>>> programs.
>>>> My understanding is that centers will assist by permitting you to leave
>>>> your
>>>> dog in an office, possibly with staff, so the dog will not be alone.
>>>> Remember that the reason, in part, for going to the centers is to learn
>>>> better travel techniques which means developing better cane skills as
>>>> that
>>>> is what the centers teach. You WILL find this invaluable after your time
>>>> at
>>>> the center.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Best Regards,
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Michael Hingson
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ashley
>>>> Coleman
>>>> via nagdu
>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2015 5:11 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: Ashley Coleman <amc05111 at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers
>>>> 
>>>> Hi, I know that these centers do a great job in regards to teaching.
>>>> Please
>>>> make sure that your dog get as much exercise as normal. Also, live a
>>>> radio
>>>> or TV on so that your dog has something calming to listen to. Check
>>>> with
>>>> your trainers to find out when they would like you to use a cane.
>>>> Honestly,
>>>> I would rather work with my dog than a cane. I would have a difficult
>>>> time
>>>> leaving Landon behind in my room all day. JMO.
>>>> 
>>>> Ashley Coleman,
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Aug 29, 2015, at 19:07, Aleeha Dudley via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>> I will be attending the Louisiana center for the blind in September. I
>>>> know what their policy on dogs is, but I would like to hear from those
>>>> who
>>>> have attended centers with your dogs. How was it? What can I do to
>>>> reduce
>>>> the stress on my dog from being left all day?
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>> Aleeha
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>         David Andrews and long white cane Harry.
>> E-Mail:  dandrews at visi.com or david.andrews at nfbnet.org
>> 
>> 
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> 
> 
> -- 
> Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
> Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
> (513) 607-6053
> 
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