[nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers

Mon Aug 31 14:37:41 UTC 2015

I have had dogs for 25 years and have used a cane between dogs on 3
occasions.  I had to get to a bus, transfer buses downtown which
involved walking 2 or 3 blocks.  I was successful doing this.  I
certainly believe my cane skills could improve, as most of us can
improve our cane skills.  I am not willing to risk the possible
retirement of my dog so I can obtain this training.

At this time, my recommendation will be that anyone go through the
center training before obtaining a dog.  Unfortunately, that is not
possible so each person must decide if training is more important than
the potential need to go to school to obtain a new dog. This may be
rare, but it does happen.

On 8/31/15, larry d keeler via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> As do I! What I don't get is that yyou can't use the dog during other
> classes! I could even live with occasionally leaving the dog for an hour or
> two for mobility and cane practice. Like you, I have grown up using a cane.
> I have only in the last 10 years have used the dog. If I can prove I have
> good cane skills, then why should I have to not use my dog?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Elizabeth
> Campbell via nagdu
> Sent: Monday, August 31, 2015 8:21 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: Elizabeth Campbell
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers
>
> All, I cannot emphasize the importance of keeping up your cane skills even
> though working with a dog is your preferred travel method.
> As you know, I had to retire my dog very suddenly, and believe me there is
> a
> learning curve for me since I hadn't used my cane  as often as I should, in
> my opinion.
>
> Having a good grounding in cane skills is essential for every blind person
> given that life happens and you just never know when you will be without
> your dog.
> I didn't attend an NFB training center, but I understand the rules and
> philosophy and the emphasis on the blindness skills training.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Hingson
> via nagdu
> Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2015 3:29 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Michael Hingson <mike at michaelhingson.com>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers
>
> All,
>
> I want to address comments by Lisa and Raven.
>
> First, the center staff asks students not to use guide dogs during much of
> the training, including travel class, both in order to teach cane travel
> and
> to provide lessons concerning orientation or what we have come to know as
> "structured discovery". These concepts while supposed to be known in part
> by
> guide dog users seem not to be understood. I have seen many questions on
> this list which show people's lack of confidence or a lack of knowledge of
> good orientation skills.
>
> Even guide dog training programs do encourage their consumers to come
> having
> attained good orientation skills as they recognize that they cannot spend
> the month or less that students are in their programs teaching orientation
> and mobility or adjustment. Leader Dogs has a one-week, I believe that is
> the time, mobility course. That is not nearly enough time to learn and
> develop good orientation skills in my opinion. However, it is a start for
> some.
>
> The centers have a job to do. Using a guide dog during travel will not
> promote the learning of good travel skills that are learned when learning
> to
> use the most basic travel tool, the cane.
>
> Now let's move to items such as calling the centers "attitude factories".
> While that is not the term I would have coined that is what they are. The
> purpose of the centers is to put together a program that not only teaches
> consumers travel and other skills, but they teach attitudes about
> blindness.
> Their most basic function is to help their attendees to understand that
> blindness is NOT what holds them back. Remember that people come to the
> centers usually not knowing much about being blind because they have either
> never been exposed to good role models or they are newly blinded. In both
> cases they, like the rest of us, have lived in a world where people with
> eyesight constantly remind us, consciously or not, that blind people cannot
> live as well or as productively as they. Every person on this list can cite
> examples of this. Here is one I observed last year.
>
> I was in a store with a relative. We just arrived at the checkout counter
> where there was another customer in front of us. I was not using Africa,
> but
> rather a cane. My cane hit the person in front of me and I, because the
> line
> was close, also slightly bumped into the person. While I immediately
> apologized my relative jerked me back and later did not even recognized
> that
> I had interacted with the other customer including apologizing. By the way,
> the customer said "no problem". Even today the relative and his wife feel
> what he did was right calling it "natural behavior". It is not "natural
> behavior", but learned behavior due to poor attitudes about us. I have
> lived
> around those people for many years and still today they are really
> uncomfortable about blindness and me. They are also uncomfortable around my
> wife, Karen, who is the actual blood relative.
>
> Centers teach many of us to have the confidence or yes, attitude, that we
> are really part of society and that we can be whatever we want if we can
> dream it. Most "orientation and mobility centers" in this country and
> elsewhere do not focus on attitude as the NFB centers do. So yes, our
> centers are in a way attitude factories and I am glad of it.
>
> I have not attended a center, but I worked for quite a while with Dr.
> Jernigan in the late 70s during the development of the original Kurzweil
> Reading Machine. I spent much time at the Iowa Commission for the blind
> observing and participating in some of the commission activities. Dr.
> Jernigan used this time as part of my "training" in Federation philosophy
> and in how he worked with employees and clients. That training was
> invaluable to me and I keep it in mind and use it daily.
>
> I have spent time observing and working around our NFB training centers and
> see not only the Jernigan influence, but how the processes of the centers
> have evolved including how guide dogs are treated. I for one do not believe
> anyone can develop a similar center based on using a guide dog. The
> interactions are different. The whole process would be different due to the
> nature of how a blind traveler and their guide dog interact. The same level
> of learning environmental awareness and "structured discovery" would not
> work. As the old adage goes "you must learn to walk before you can learn to
> run". We can learn to run, as it were, with guide dogs or canes, but
> learning to "walk" with a guide dog, that is learning the basic orientation
> and travel skills, will not happen with a guide dog as easily or as well,
> for the most part, as with a cane. Even the guide dog training programs
> acknowledge it so I think that debating it further is not productive.
>
> I hope this helps the discussion at hand. I would suggest that anyone who
> disagrees with what the NFB training centers do should take the time to
> contact the centers and learn about the programs. Don't take my word for
> it.
> Don't take the word of anyone else as your only source of information. Call
> or visit and then discuss.
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
>
> Michael Hingson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Lisa via nagdu
> Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2015 10:00 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Lisa <dreamymarmot93 at yahoo.de>
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> I have a question regarding the training centers.
> Why does the dog have to stay in an office while the student is in class
> whereas it is totally normal to have the dog with you _in_ the class
> room/office at school, college or university? Wouldn't we all be very
> annoyed if a college had the policy of leaving the dog in the headmaster's
> office during class?
> I'd just be interested in the difference that obviously exists between
> learning at the center and at a mainstream school or work.
>
> Thanks for explanations.
> Lisa
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marianne Denning via nagdu" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: "Marianne Denning" <marianne at denningweb.com>
> Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2015 6:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers
>
>
>> Julie, wwhere do you work?  Is the decision to let the person work
>> with their dog based on each individual's progress through the
>> program?
>>
>> On 8/30/15, Julie J. via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> Raven,
>>>
>>> A few thoughts...
>>>
>>> First I do not believe that guide dogs and canes are diametrically
>>> opposed,
>>>
>>> as you previously asserted I said.  I believe they are different, but
>>> that many of the skills are similar or overlapping.  I believe that
>>> orientation skills are the much, much larger part of orientation and
>>> mobility training.
>>>
>>> Folks learn to use a guide dog for mobility in less than a month.  I
>>> also believe that you can learn to use a cane strictly for mobility
>>> in that time.
>>>
>>> However the larger orientation skills take months and months to learn
>>> and master.
>>>
>>> I've said before that it is preferable to learn orientation skills
>>> while using a cane.  This is because it causes you to learn without
>>> confusing a dog or inadvertently relying on input from the dog.
>>> Here's an example...early in O&M training here at our center, people
>>> learn the skill of identifying where the door out of a room is, even
>>> if they are the only
>>> person in the room.   This skill is the predecessor to more advanced
>>> skills
>>>
>>> like mall travel where you need to be able to recognize when you pass
>>> a certain store or leave one area of the mall for another and the
>>> like when there is no distinct doorway.  Here's the thing though, if
>>> you are a dog user, even if you do not cue the dog to find the door,
>>> it is going to be the
>>>
>>> obvious thing and they are going to suggest it.  The person may never
>>> pick up on the subtle indications of where that door is.  They don't
>>> learn that base skill to be able to build on it later and perhaps
>>> later the dog doesn't
>>>
>>> know which way to go in the mall because there is no obvious choice.
>>> Because
>>>
>>> the person hasn't learned to recognize other clues in the
>>> environment, they
>>>
>>> don't know how to direct the dog.
>>>
>>> Raven, you seem to have very good O&M skills.  For you it may make
>>> little difference if you went through center training with a cane or
>>> dog, but having worked at a center, I can absolutely tell you that
>>> the huge majority
>>>
>>> of people are not like you.  They are attending the center training
>>> because
>>>
>>> they need to better their skills, all of their skills.    We do have
>>> people
>>>
>>> attend our center with their guide dog.  Here they work their dog in
>>> their free time, before and after classes and at the lunch break.  As
>>> the training
>>>
>>> progresses, the dog is incorporated into travel class and other times.
>>> By
>>> the very end of training, the person will be back to working the dog
>>> the majority of the time.
>>>
>>> We all know that dogs get sick,  tragic things happen and eventually
>>> the dog
>>>
>>> will need to retire.  For about 99.9% of us this means using a cane
>>> when the
>>>
>>> dog is unavailable.   It's unrealistic to think that someone will be
>>> able
>
>>> to
>>>
>>> work their dog 100% of the time for the person's entire lifetime.   So
>>> if
>>> you don't have decent cane skills this means you are going to need a
>>> human guide, put your life on hold or have two dogs at all times.
>>> Seems to me having learned to use a cane would be a good base skill
>>> to have.
>>>
>>> I know that all of the programs have requirements about being able to
>>> use
>
>>> a
>>>
>>> cane or show that you have good O&M skills.  But let's be brutally
>>> honest with ourselves for a minute,  we all know that what passes for
>>> good O&M skills varies widely from program to program.  I also cannot
>>> begin to count
>>>
>>> the number of stories I have heard from people who attended a program
>>> and had classmates who couldn't find their way around without
>>> significant help.
>>>
>>> To me it's pretty clear that folks with guide dogs do not all have
>>> good orientation skills.  Perhaps we could work with the guide dog
>>> programs to help them better understand the importance of acquiring
>>> good orientation training before getting a dog.
>>>
>>> You made the argument that a dog is your preferred mobility tool and
>>> the center programs should support that decision.  I think they do,
>>> but that they also recognize that a dog is a mobility tool and that
>>> there is more to
>>>
>>> independent travel than mobility.    What if a person went to a center
>>> and
>>> said they use GPS, so they don't need to learn orientation skills?
>>> that would be silly and no one would think that a good idea.  GPS
>>> only goes so far in getting you where you want to go.  It doesn't
>>> tell you when it's safe
>>>
>>> to cross the street, when there are stairs, when there's road
>>> construction or when a kid has parked his bike across the sidewalk.
>>> If someone went to a
>>>
>>> center and said they didn't need to learn to use the stovetop because
>>> they were going to eat microwave dinners for the rest of their life,
>>> no one would
>>>
>>> think that a good idea either.   The centers recognize that personal
>>> independence through skill training includes a wide variety of skills.
>>> It
>>> means moving out of your comfort zone and learning new things.
>>> Perhaps there are people who only use the microwave to cook, but the
>>> point is that after center training that's a choice, not a necessity.
>>> To me that's what it's really about, having the choice to pick from a
>>> wide variety of skills to find the one that best fits the particular
>>> situation I find myself in.
>>>
>>> Julie
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
>> Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
>> (513) 607-6053
>>
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-- 
Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
(513) 607-6053