[NAGDU] Relieving on route, was introduction

Tracy Carcione carcione at access.net
Wed Dec 2 13:08:02 UTC 2015


Hi Morgan.
I feel your pain.  My last 2 dogs have relieved on route, despite my saying beforehand that I do not like this behavior.  My current dog Krokus is somewhat better about it than my last dog was, but still prefers to walk a bit beforehand, especially in New York City, where I work.
This is my advice, which is only a goal.  For me, it's still a work in progress, to some degree.
If Fair needs to walk a bit, work out how far, by letting her let you know, and find a safe place to take her around that distance.  This is the trickiest bit for me--finding a safe place at the right distance in the big bad city.  Take off the harness and let her go there.  If my dog does what I call "the dance of good faith", sniffing and spinning and making a good-faith effort to do his stuff, I praise him.  If he just messes around, I tend to grumble.
If she doesn't do anything within a reasonable time, like 3-5 minutes, put the harness back on and continue.  This is another tricky bit, because, if Krokus hasn't managed to do anything in the place I chose, he will stop again a bit farther on.  Sometimes he really will do something the second time, and sometimes he's just wanting to sniff.  If I think he's just taking advantage, I correct him and make him move on.  If I think he really does need to do something, I take off his harness and let him try.  Next time, I may work him to the new place, instead of the first place.  And sometimes he just wants to stop at places he's stopped before, in which case he gets a sharp correction. It's a judgement call on my part.  Sometimes I'm right, and sometimes I'm wrong.
Eventually, you'll figure out how far she has to go, and get some regular places.  But it can take a while to figure out.  At least, that's been my experience.  I've had Krokus a year now, and we're still working on it, though it's a whole lot better than it was when I got him.  It's a huge pain in the neck, really.  When the dog has to go, he pays less attention to the work he's supposed to be doing.  Understandable, I guess, since I get anxious when I've really got to go myself, but not a good thing when he's supposed to be guiding me.
Still, patience, firmness, and paying attention to what the dog is trying to tell you will get things manageable.

BTW, I'm Tracy.  I live in northern New Jersey, and work in Manhattan.  I'm working my 7th dog.  The first 5 were from GDB in San Rafael, and the last 2 from The Seeing Eye.  My California dogs did not relieve on route.  Maybe it's an Eastern feature.

Good luck.  Love your dog's name.
Tracy


-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Morgan Leland via nagdu
Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2015 8:06 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Morgan Leland
Subject: Re: [nagdu] relieving surfaces was Introduction

Thanks for the feedback. I do that with her with mixed success. Right now we are trying intervals and working right after poops. It worked really well today. I will not always have the freedom to structure our routes this way but hopefully it lays a good foundation and gets her out of the habit of relieving in harness. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 1, 2015, at 5:39 PM, Vivianna via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:

Hi there.
for me, this is one of those things that i will not put up with in my guide.  i understand that it may happen, if the dog is sick for example.  but, i would not work a dog that could not be trained to not relieve in harness.
i had a dog once that would not go before we started on our route and then would try going in harness.  i learned that, if i walked 2 blocks and then curbed him, he would go no problems.  so, i located some trash cans in various directions and just went out the door and started the route, stopping after 2 blocks and letting him go.  this worked for him.
if my dog shows signs of needing to relieve, i stop right away whip off the harness and curb her.  if the dog actually starts going in harness, i physically drag/push them off the sidewalk, whip off the harness and curb them.  i am definitely not opposed to the word NO, or a good stiff old-fashioned leash correction.  the dog must learn that this behavior is NOT acceptable, never ever.  
and, i agree the dog should be able to relief on all sorts of surfaces as well as off curbs.

what if you tried just leaving and then stop after 1 block, ask her to go, give her like 3 minutes and, if she doesn’t go then, try 1 more block.  ask again.  if she doesn’t go try 1 more block. this way you will get an idea how long she has to walk before she will go.  then, the next day you can shoot for the same distance again.


anyway, just my thoughts.

Vivianna

> On Dec 1, 2015, at 4:18 PM, Morgan Leland via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> I understand she is a dog and she will need to go when she needs to go. I live in Arizona though and there are cactus everywhere so I can't just pull over and go when she has to stop. I give her plenty of opportunities. I don't expect her to walk miles with no opportunity to relieve herself. I just have to make sure we are in a safe place before she does so. I also work on college campus so I can't have her relieving in the middle of busy areas or I may get my hand stepped on trying to pick it up. I know you don't know me, so you don't know that I do care for my dog and do not have expectations for her that are too high.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Dec 1, 2015, at 2:49 PM, Raven Tolliver via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> The issue is not discerning between the sidewalk and a "parking spot."
> The issue is that your dog is relieving herself outside of when she is 
> given a cue that it is okay.
> I think the "no poop, no route," is a bit extreme. I understand you 
> don't want her to go on route, but you cannot force your dog to poop 
> in a certain place at the time you choose. She's gotta go when she's 
> gotta go, so if she only needs to poop after some exercise, it means 
> she'll likely not poop before walking some. And I dunno 'bout you, but 
> waiting for my dog to poop for 15-20 mins would get old fast.
> 
> Perhaps you can work with reteaching your dog that the harness has to 
> come off before it is okay to poop. She learned this as a pup, but 
> perhaps a retraining of this concept should be in the works.
> 
> I know you weren't expecting this. All of us have to do retraining to 
> some extent when we get dogs who didn't live in a house for 3-12 
> months.
> --
> Raven
> Founder of 1AM Editing & Research
> www.1am-editing.com
> 
> You are valuable because of your potential, not because of what you 
> have or what you do.
> 
> Naturally-reared guide dogs
> https://groups.google.com/d/forum/nrguidedogs
> 
>> On 12/1/15, Morgan Leland via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> I agree that grass is preferable and dogs probably will not need to 
>> be trained for that. I was told that if you don't consistently use 
>> concrete in the beginning they may choose not to go on it again in 
>> the future, and in Arizona there will be times I have no other option 
>> than concrete. So, if she starts getting squeamish about going on 
>> concrete, we could have some real issues. I was worried that having 
>> her go on concrete was the reason she was choosing to use the 
>> sidewalk, but I have been assured by my trainers that is probably not 
>> the case. Because I have some flexibility now I am just going to try 
>> having her go and then do our routes. No poop, no route. Hopefully 
>> this gets resolved before things get real and I don't have much of a choice.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Dec 1, 2015, at 1:53 PM, Cindy Ray via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Now, I just had a driveway, steps, and a patio, but the term was concrete.
>> I
>> did not know that difference. The Seeing Eye's dog relieve on a hard 
>> surface, but I have never had one come home, see the grass in my 
>> yard, and say, "Ah, I think concrete is wonderful." It was more 
>> likely to say, "Ah, Grass!"
>> Cindy Lou Ray
>> cindyray at gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie J. 
>> via nagdu
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 1, 2015 1:03 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users 
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com>
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] relieving surfaces was Introduction
>> 
>> Raven,
>> 
>> Yes and no.  Cement is a component of concrete.  Most people use the terms
>> interchangeably to mean the same thing.   Concrete is a mixture of cement,
>> water and fillers, usually crushed rock/gravel.  Cement alone is more 
>> expensive, but smoother when dry because there is no gravel filler 
>> mixed in.
>> 
>> So cement might be used for say a swimming pool or roller skate rink, 
>> while concrete is used for sidewalks and most other applications.
>> 
>> A dog isn't going to recognize the difference between cement and concrete.
>> Most people don't.  I never knew until doing a home project and 
>> looking like a dork at the home improvement store. *smile*
>> 
>> I don't teach my dogs to relieve on concrete.  I've had very little 
>> problems with relieving in harness on route.  I don't know if that's 
>> related or coincidence.  I live in an area with abundant 
>> grass/gravel/woodchip/dirt readily available.  So as long as I 
>> continue to live in this sort of area, I will continue to not allow 
>> concrete relieving at any time.
>> 
>> Julie
>> Courage to Dare: A Blind Woman's Quest to Train her Own Guide Dog is 
>> now available! Get the book here:
>> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00QXZSMOC
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Raven Tolliver via nagdu
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2015 11:02 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Cc: Raven Tolliver
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Introduction
>> 
>> Cement and concrete are 2 different things, aren't they? Just asking, 
>> 'cause I think those are 2 different surfaces.
>> --
>> Raven
>> Founder of 1AM Editing & Research
>> www.1am-editing.com
>> 
>> You are valuable because of your potential, not because of what you 
>> have or what you do.
>> 
>> Naturally-reared guide dogs
>> https://groups.google.com/d/forum/nrguidedogs
>> 
>>> On 11/30/15, Debby Phillips via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> Even in class, Nova would not poop on cement.  She would pee, 
>>> reluctantly.  Finally I just started taking her to some grass.
>>> My instructor said that there are some dogs who just will not go on 
>>> concrete, unless they are totally desperate.  We tried walking her 
>>> and walking her, I even resorted to singing.  Lol.  I'd never seen a 
>>> dog as stubborn about going on concrete, or not going, rather.  She 
>>> will go in dirt, which is good, because sometimes
>>> when away from home, that's all I've been able to find.    Debby
>>> and Nova who HATES pooping on concrete
>> 
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