[nagdu] Combo dogs

Fri Feb 27 16:04:47 UTC 2015

Buddy, you've hit the nail on the head here. Intelligent disobedience, or
selective disobedience as it was once called, sets guide dog training apart.
The trainer is in the position of trying to get the dog to understand not
only the goal of the command but the range of parameters that delay the
accomplishment of that goal. To some extent, they are aided by the dog's
natural instinct for self preservation, as in not walking in front of a
truck, but in other cases like avoiding overhead obstacles that don't bother
the dog and steep steps that the dog could take with ease or finding
something like "the way out" or "a seat," that isn't much help. Fortunately,
dogs are very intuitive and, as is apparent in the threat about walking with
children, they are very adaptable.

I think there is still a prejudice against blind people that makes trainers
of other service dogs want to exclude them so as not to "mix" people with
other disabilities with blind people. GDF trains service dogs for vets as
well as guide dogs, and some vets are both blind and have PTSD or some other
disability, so it is certainly possible to get a guide dog with other
service dog skills.
Donna

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Buddy Brannan via
nagdu
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2015 8:53 AM
To: Tracy Carcione; NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog
Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Combo dogs

I'd love the thoughts of real trainers, but it seems to me that one thing
that sets guide dog training apart from the training of other service dog
tasks is intelligent disobedience. My observation is that for the most part,
many service tasks are of the "I give this command, dog does this thing"
variety. I say "Fetch", dog picks up my socks. I say "Pull", dog tugs on a
handle to open a door. I say "Lights", and dog jumps up to turn on a light
switch. Or, dog gets some stimulus and in response performs some action. Of
course, such a response would be a disaster for a guide dog. Our dogs of
necessity have requests, not so much commands. "Forward" means "Forward, if
you think it's a good idea and there's not some reason not to, like a semi
truck barreling down the road". Also, if guide dog training is so easy,
especially given current traffic conditions, why have the schools
concentrated on those behaviors and, for example, dropped the training of
other things, "Fetch" being the most often cited example?

-
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Phone: 814-860-3194
Mobile: 814-431-0962
Email: buddy at brannan.name

> On Feb 27, 2015, at 8:45 AM, Tracy Carcione via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
wrote:
>
> That's interesting that most other service dog programs steer clear of
> guide dogs.  I heard a couple trainers recently complaining about how
> easy guide dog training is, and how much more interesting service dog
> training is.  So, if guide dog training is so easy, why don't other
> places do it?  Is it the old thing that blind people are so different
> from everyone else we couldn't possibly be in the same class with sighted
people?
> I was a bit annoyed at the comments about how easy guide dog training is.
> If it's so darn easy, why do I have so much work to do when I get
> home? I think more likely it's just the grass is greener on the other
> side of the fence.
> Tracy
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Buddy
> Brannan via nagdu
> Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 7:51 PM
> To: Danielle Antoine; NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of
> Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] FWD: Arizona - URGENT LEGISLATIVE ALERT; HB2179
> AMENDMENT MAKES SIGNIFICANT CHANGES TO RIGHTS OF PERSONSWHO USE
> SERVICE ANIMALS
>
> Hi,
>
> If you ever do need a combo dog, you won't get one from CCI.they don't
> do any guide training at all. Paws With a Cause might. There are tons
> of little service dog programs that do one thing or another or
> several, but lots steer clear of guide work.
>
> -
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> Phone: 814-860-3194
> Mobile: 814-431-0962
> Email: buddy at brannan.name
>
>
>
>> On Feb 26, 2015, at 7:07 PM, Danielle Antoine via nagdu
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
>>
>> Ho Hum! well, hell. And to think I have recommended them to folks who
>> could more benefit from a service dog. Heck, one old day I too might
>> need a service or combination dog that the guide dog schools can not
>> address. That. is. not. the. case. right. now. This is totally
>> sickening! If they were able to do this, what or who would stop other
>> states from following suit? I'm sure Martin, Dorothy, Morris, and
>> Kenneth are rolling over and pressing their way out of the grave
>> right now! I thought it was a reject from the first one or two
>> programs applied for or someone who got their guide dog revoked
>> promoting this sort of nonsense foolishness. Lor, can't wait for the
>> update. SO glad to hear it didn't pass. Thanks Sharonda! As for
>> dealing with an aggressive dog, I focus on keeping my own self and
>> dog as far away as I can and make sure I have control over my dog and
>> myself. A safe distance means you can move around and get out if need
>> be. The best is a dog that is seen, not heard. What other service dog
>> schools are there aside from CCI and KSDS?
>>
>> Danielle
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2/26/15, L Gwizdak via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> Aleeha,
>>> I would be shocked if CCI were behind this.  It would be
>>> counterproductive to them as they provide service dogs.  They are
>>> behind amending the ADA to allow businesses to ask for IDs but I
>>> don't
> think this thing.
>>>
>>> I was interested in reading this because it smacks of a bill last
>>> year in AZ to allow public places to refuse to serve LGBT people.
>>> Some of these morons just hate everyone and everything.  That anti
>>> LGBT law also went down in flames.  I think the heat must get to
>>> their
> brains!
>>>
>>> I did hear that this anti-service dog bill did die as it should.
>>> But, just the idea that there are still people who want to take this
>>> country back to the Dark Ages.  We need to know about these things
>>> so we
> stay vigilant.
>>> Rights are won but they can also be taken away and wwe must ALWAYS
>>> be aware and watching.  We can never rest.  I know this well as an
>>> LGBT person AND a disabled service dog user.
>>>
>>> Lyn and Oliver
>>> "Asking who's the man and who's the woman in an LGBT relationship is
>>> like asking which chopstick is the fork" - Unknown
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Aleeha Dudley via nagdu" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> To: "Michael Hingson" <mike at michaelhingson.com>; "NAGDU Mailing
>>> List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2015 5:27 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] FWD: Arizona - URGENT LEGISLATIVE ALERT;HB2179
>>> AMENDMENT MAKES SIGNIFICANT CHANGES TO RIGHTS OF PERSONSWHO USE
>>> SERVICE ANIMALS
>>>
>>>
>>>> Pardon me while I rant for a moment.
>>>> How dare a state legislature decide that a person cannot go
>>>> somewhere just
>>>>
>>>> because they are disabled. How dare they keep tabs on us like
>>>> children, treat us like second rate citizens and the scum of the
>>>> earth. How dare we be penalized for our choice to use service
>>>> animals. I wish I were able to go down there and talk some sense
>>>> into these morons. I agree that CCI appears to be behind this. This
>>>> has
> always been a pet project of theirs.
>>>> OK, I think I'm done now. Sorry, this just makes me mad enough to
>>>> have smoke flowing out of my ears. Bak under the rock.
>>>>
>>>> Aleeha Dudley and Seeing Eye Dog Dallas Vice President, Ohio
>>>> Association of Guide Dog Users Vice President, Ohio Association of
>>>> Blind Students Both proud divisions of the National Federation of
>>>> the Blind of Ohio
>>>> Email: blindcowgirl1993 at gmail.com
>>>> <mailto:blindcowgirl1993 at gmail.com>
>>>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not
>>>> the characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we
>>>> raise the expectations of blind people, because low expectations
>>>> create obstacles between blind people and our dreams. You can live
>>>> the life you want; blindness is not what holds you back.
>>>> "The wind of heaven is that which blows between a horse's ears." -
>>>> Arabian
>>>>
>>>> proverb
>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 18, 2015, at 7:36 PM, Michael Hingson via nagdu
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The legislature also does not understand disabilities well nor
>>>>> does it seem to recognize what service dogs do.  At least some
>>>>> legislators do not
>>>>>
>>>>> seem to understand.
>>>>>
>>>>> States do not trump Federal law in any case, but this law shows
>>>>> that we must be ever vigilant.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael Hingson
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>>>> <mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org>] On Behalf Of Ginger Kutsch via
>>>>> nagdu
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2015 4:07 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>> Users
>>>>> Subject: [nagdu] FWD: Arizona - URGENT LEGISLATIVE ALERT; HB2179
>>>>> AMENDMENT MAKES SIGNIFICANT CHANGES TO RIGHTS OF PERSONS WHO USE
>>>>> SERVICE ANIMALS
>>>>>
>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Larry Wanger <larry at azsilc.org>
>>>>> Date: February 18, 2015 at 1:16:14 PM MST
>>>>> Subject: URGENT LEGISLATIVE ALERT; HB2179 AMENDMENT MAKES
>>>>> SIGNIFICANT CHANGES TO RIGHTS OF PERSONS WHO USE SERVICE ANIMALS
>>>>>
>>>>> The following information is provided in order to share
>>>>> information regarding legislation pending in the Arizona House of
>>>>> Representatives that will impact the rights of persons with
> disabilities.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Legislation that will significantly impact the rights of persons
>>>>> with disabilities who utilize the assistance of a service animal
>>>>> will be heard
>>>>>
>>>>> in the House Government and higher Education Committee at 9:00am
>>>>> tomorrow, Thursday February 19 in House hearing Room 1. This
>>>>> legislation is an amendment to HB2179 and will make significant
>>>>> changes to current state statutes regarding the rights of
>>>>> individuals with service animals
>>>>> including:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> .         Requiring that individuals who use service animals obtain a
>>>>> permit from the Arizona Department of health Services in order to
>>>>> take their service animal in to a public place and that such
>>>>> permit be renewed
>>>>>
>>>>> on a regular basis.
>>>>>
>>>>> .         As part of the permit process, an individual will be
required
>>>>> to apply to the Department of Health Services and provide
>>>>> documentation from a medical professional certifying the applicant
>>>>> has
> a disability.
>>>>>
>>>>> .         Requiring that a service animal wear a vest, also issued by
> the
>>>>>
>>>>> Department of Health Services at all times when in a public place.
>>>>> This vest will display permit information.
>>>>>
>>>>> .         Allows restaurants to block access for persons with service
>>>>> animals in order to meet local and or state health code regulations.
>>>>>
>>>>> .         Requires the Department of Health services to develop a sign
>>>>> for restaurants to display indicating that service animals are not
>>>>> permitted and that a separate sign for other public businesses not
>>>>> serving food be created that indicates service animals are allowed.
>>>>>
>>>>> .         Requires the Department of Health Services to petition the
>>>>> United States Department of Justice requesting that the Americans
>>>>> with Disabilities Act be updated to comply with state law.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Additionally, the following language is included at the end of the
>>>>> amendment:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The legislature finds that the Americans with disabilities act of
>>>>> 1990 may endanger the health and safety of the public, place an
>>>>> undue burden on businesses and others and conflict with state and
>>>>> local
> health codes.
>>>>> State and local health codes shall supersede the Americans with
>>>>> disabilities act of
>>>>>
>>>>> 1990."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have attached the full text of the amendment to HB2179 for your
> review.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Larry Wanger, Executive Director
>>>>>
>>>>> Arizona Statewide Independent Living Council
>>>>>
>>>>> 5025 E. Washington Street, Suite 214
>>>>>
>>>>> Phoenix, AZ. 85034
>>>>>
>>>>> 602-262-2900 (Voice/TTY)
>>>>>
>>>>> 602-271-4100 (Fax)
>>>>>
>>>>> larry at azsilc.org
>>>>>
>>>>> www.azsilc.org
>>>>> <http://mandrillapp.com/track/click/30489975/www.azsilc.org?p=eyJz
>>>>> I
>>>>> joiNl9oWXVMRk1USTRqTVlVSm45X0FFRDE5ZXcwIiwidiI6MSwicCI6IntcInVcIjo
>>>>> z
>>>>> MDQ4OTk3NSxcInZcIjoxLFwidXJsXCI6XCJodHRwOlxcXC9cXFwvd3d3LmF6c2lsYy
>>>>> 5
>>>>> vcmdcIixcImlkXCI6XCI3Mjc5ZDIwMDZhMmE0YzYyOGY4OTJhMWM3NGQ3NmJmMFwiL
>>>>> F
>>>>> widXJsX2lkc1wiOltcIjRlMzlhYjU3YTkzZmNiMzczY2JkMDI4ZGFhZmRiODBhZWYx
>>>>> M
>>>>> WI2ZGJcIl19In0>
>>>>>
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