[nagdu] Clicker guide dog conference blog, was What's up with all the scavenging anyhow?

Tracy Carcione carcione at access.net
Thu Jul 2 14:24:49 UTC 2015


Thanks Rox.  This blog is really interesting.


-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of The Pawpower Pack
via nagdu
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2015 7:27 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: The Pawpower Pack
Subject: Re: [nagdu] What's up with all the scavenging anyhow?

Raven, 
Thank you for saying this so well. 
I know it's very hard for people to change, to learn new ways.  I think
there are quite a few reasons the programs are switching to clicker
training.  And the public opinion is the least of them.  If you are
interested in the tools clicker trainers use when training guide dogs, here
is a blog written by a trainer for the program in MI.  She has been
attending a clicker training conference put on by one of the programs in CA.
Her entries about this conference are at the top of the blog and are very
educational.
http://www.christiebane.com/forward-the-guide-dog-training-blog.html
I have been using the clicker and OC methods for the last 12 years.  I have
trained 4 dogs from the ground up using this method, and I really
appreciated these blog posts.  


 Rox and the kitchen Bitches: 
Mill'E, Laveau, Soleil
Pawpower4me at gmail.com
Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 2, 2015, at 12:18 AM, Raven Tolliver via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
wrote:
> 
> Positive reinforcement training should be a mandatory part of guide
> dog class. This is because to understand how it works, you typically
> learn a handful about psychology, and by learning this, you improve
> your communication skills with both people and animals. In my opinion,
> there are more drawbacks to not learning it, than there are
> disadvantages to learning it.
> As an aside, clicker training and treat training are not the same
> thing. I've trained a number of dogs with the clicker without using
> treats, and I used play, praise, or petting instead. I've also done
> positive reinforcement training without the clicker. Some dogs find
> the clicker incredibly startling or distracting, so I just use the
> word "yes" instead, click my tongue, or tap my thigh.
> The goal is to reward good behavior, ignore bad behavior, thereby
> increasing good behavior and reducing bad behavior. When undesirable
> behavior isn't rewarded, the dog will naturally stop the behavior,
> because it yields no benefit.
> Unfortunately, one of the first things many guide dog schools talk
> about and hammer home is the use of the leash correction. They talk
> far more about this than positive reinforcement, and they fail to
> adequately and accurately demonstrate how positive reinforcement can
> motivate and train a dog to perform almost any task. And there's my
> problem.
> Leash corrections are not inherently bad. My problem with leash
> corrections is how often they are used, the reasons they are used for
> primarily, and the fact that people are taught to punish their dog
> before they are taught a myriad of other methods  that could refocus
> their dog just as easily.
> I find it problematic because I think it is disrespectful to dogs. I
> wouldn't want someone to slap me just because they tried to get my
> attention a couple times, and I didn't understand, agree with, or do
> what they wanted. So no, I don't do that to my dog.
> My second day of my current job, my mentor showed me how to clean dog
> runs, but I wasn't doing it correctly. She kept showing me
> hand-over-hand what she wanted, but when she let go, I still wasn't
> doing it the way she showed me. So should she have slapped me or
> grabbed my shirt collar and yanked on me because I wasn't doing what
> she asked? As a biased party, I'm going to say no. Not because that
> would hurt, but because that would be incredibly disrespectful. And
> slapping me wouldn't make me enjoy my job or enjoy working around her.
> Yes, I would try my best to do what she wanted, but only because I
> wouldn't want to get assaulted again.
> And I feel the same way about the dogs I work with. Dogs are extremely
> forgiving and loyal creatures, even if they goof up some times. They
> love us unconditionally, and deserve our unconditional respect and
> loyalty in return. They are creatures who do not reason on the level
> that we do. They can't think in retrospect, or reflect upon their
> actions. They don't have the capacity to just shut off all of their
> instincts and drives, just as all people don't. They act out of
> selfish desires sometimes, just like we do.
> And I don't think a leash correction is the solution to this problem,
> or should even be taught as a default trouble-shooting technique.
> If you can't get a dog to do something without force, it is because of
> a failure to adequately communicate on your part, not because the dog
> is not listening.
> Another problem with leash corrections is that people usually correct
> out of frustration and anger, rather than with a sincere heart of
> keeping the dog in check. There is usually negative emotions wrapped
> up in correcting with the leash, and so this causes dogs to behave out
> of stress, fear and alarm. I don't want this for any of the dogs I
> work with. I don't want to make them stressed, fearful or alarmed. I
> don't want to get angry or frustrated with them, or even show them
> that I have such feelings. If I get frustrated, it's time to either do
> a walking meditation, or stop. I refuse to work or train a dog if I am
> frustrated. This stresses out the dog, increases my level of stress,
> and creates an unproductive situation. Because what happens if I give
> a leash correction, and the dog keeps acting a fool? I just keep
> correcting and punishing until I finally get it in my head that we're
> getting nowhere, so I've dropped that technique. No more frustration,
> and no more leash corrections.
> 
> When you focus on the good, your desires and your dog's desires, and
> how you can capitalize on your dog's desires to motivate them to want
> what you want, you don't have to focus on untraining or correcting bad
> behaviors. Think of the saying: "You bring about what you think
> about." And this is true. Try your best to focus on what you want your
> dog to do, rather than what you don't want them to do. If you are
> always worried about scavenging, or dog distractions, or whatever your
> dog's kryptonite is, you only increase your dog's stress, worsening
> the situation. This is easier said than done, I know from personal
> experience. But this definitely works. We set up our dogs for success
> by focusing on what we envision to be successful behavior.
> 
> This is my unpopular opinion, and that's fine. This is something I've
> come to understand because I had to work in a place where positive
> punishment was forbidden, and I had to sign a contract affirming that
> I would not use physically aversive techniques. I'm gonna bet most dog
> handlers are not ever put in that situation, so it will be difficult
> for many people to grasp.
> But I am eternally grateful I was put in that position because it
> established a solid foundation for my beliefs and values surrounding
> dog training and canine care. My relationship with my own dog has
> improved tremendously, and working with him is now very fluid. And I
> have acquired a great deal of patience and understanding from that
> job.
> -- 
> Raven
> Founder of 1AM Editing & Research
> www.1am-editing.com
> 
> You are valuable because of your potential, not because of what you
> have or what you do.
> 
> Naturally-reared guide dogs
> https://groups.google.com/d/forum/nrguidedogs
> 
>> On 7/2/15, Debby Phillips via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> You know, folks talk negatively about leash corrections.  They DO
>> NOT HURT THE DOG.  It's a reminder to pay attention, and it's
>> only if verbal doesn't work.  I'm sick of hearing how terrible we
>> are if we give leash corrections.  Pfui.  To not discipline a dog
>> and to not show leadership when it's needed is a crime.  Being
>> consistent, fair, loving, kind, praising for good work, using
>> verbal correction totally works.  If leash corrections are
>> necessary they DO NOT break the spirit of a dog.  I've had eight,
>> and none of them have hated me, not worked for me, and have
>> responded well.  You all do as you like, but I'm here to tell you
>> that if Nova needs a leash correction, that's what will happen.
>> Then she will focus on me and her work again, and will get
>> praise.  nova doesn't like to be in trouble, so usually verbal
>> works well with her, but not always, and when it doesn't, I will
>> not be afraid to use what works.  Yup, I'm old school, but I'm
>> thankful for the great training that I've had.    Debby and Nova
>> 
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> 
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