[nagdu] What's up with all the scavenging anyhow?

melissa R green graduate56 at juno.com
Thu Jul 2 14:32:01 UTC 2015


Julie and all.
Dogs do remember having some
clicker training.  One day my
friend and I found a clicker.
I clicked it and both dogs
came running from the other
room and sat nicely waiting to
see what the task was for
them.  I see it as another
tool in the toolbox.  

Have a blessed day.
Best regards,
Melissa R Green and Pj
Love is being committed with
out a guarantee.

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu
[mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.o
rg] On Behalf Of Julie J. via
nagdu
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2015
6:58 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the
National Association of Guide
Dog Users
Cc: Julie J.
Subject: Re: [nagdu] What's up
with all the scavenging
anyhow?

Debbie,

I'm kind of confused by your
message.  You said that you
wouldn't use clicker training
all day every day, but could
see it's usefulness for some
specific things.  From this
statement, I don't think you
understand what clicker
training is and what it isn't.
Perhaps that's why you are
upset by many of the messages
about new training methods?

In a very, very, brief
summary...clicker training is
just that...training. 
It isn't meant to be used all
day every day.  It is meant as
a method to train the dog or
person or dolphin to do
something specific.
Successive approximations are
used to teach this.  So if you
wanted to teach a dog to pick
up the newspaper, you would
click when the dog glances at
the paper, when the dog takes
a step toward it, when the dog
sniffs it, when the dog nudges
it with  his nose and
continuing on until the dog
has caught on the the
behavior.  When the dog is
going over to the paper each
time it is presented, you no
longer click for just a
glance.  The dog has to do a
little more,  each time to get
the click and the reward.

Food is generally used as the
reinforcer that follows the
click.  Food is used because
it is universal and fast.  You
can use play or petting,
praise or other reinforcers,
but they take more time and
aren't as valuable to every
dog.  For simplicity and
speed, food is the preferred
reinforcer.  It takes me .5
seconds to get a treat to a
dog and .25 for the dog to eat
it. 
I can get in 20 clicks and
treats in a minute or two.  If
I used petting or play it
would take me 10 seconds to
deliver something meaningful
and still longer for the dog
to refocus his attention back
on the learning exercise. 
When I am training something
with the clicker, I don't
typically talk to the dog.
It's just click and treat,
click and treat as quickly as
I can in a short amount of
time.  The dog is only
distracted by my talking and
unnecessary body movements
because he is intensely
focused in on the mental
activity of problem solving
the situation.

Dogs who are trained with the
clicker know what it is and
what it means.  A dog fairly
new to the clicker knows that
click means treat.  these are
the dogs who may be distracted
by the treats because that's
the exciting part. 
After a while though, the
mental problem solving of the
clicker game becomes
incredibly rewarding for the
dog.  These are the truly
savvy clicker dogs. 
You can teach a clicker savvy
dog complex behaviors in
minutes instead of days or
weeks.  You are actually
teaching the dog to
proactively think and to solve
puzzles.  I suppose it could
be considered to be fluent in
the language of clicker.

Here's the thing that I think
a lot of people are missing
though, once the behavior is
learned solidly, you don't
continue to use the clicker.
The behavior is already
trained, there is no need to
continue to train it.  The
treats are phased out.  It
might be helpful to randomly
reinforce a behavior with
treats, for a dog who
struggles with a particular
behavior or something that you
are particularly concerned
about, but treats are
certainly not given willy
nilly for the lifetime of the
dog.  If a dog won't work
unless he is being fed every
two feet, this isn't clicker
training, it's bribery.

Monty will be 8 in a couple of
months.  I haven't carried
treats with me when I am
working him for several years.
He still works beautifully. 
Sometimes in the winter when
we all are stir crazy from
being in the house, I will get
out the clicker and teach him
something new.  He still
remembers 
and still knows how to engage
in the training.   He does not
scavenge or try 
to take food off the table at
a restaurant or any other
horrid thing.  There have been
many times we have been
walking along and my son or
husband will 
tell me, "he just took you
around half a sandwich on the
sidewalk".   I've 
had Monty since he was about
10 months old or so.  He used
to jump on the counters, pick
up everything including dead
birds, snakes, grasshoppers
and 
I don't even want to think
about what else.    He is an
incredibly food 
motivated dog, which I used to
my advantage.

Clicker training is not
synonymous with treat
dispensing.  I think this is a
large misunderstanding.
clicker training is a specific
training method and just like
with every other training
method, once the dog is
trained, you don't continue to
badger the dog with training
that same behavior.  A
properly clicker trained dog
should work for the enjoyment
of the work or to please his
person.  If the dog will only
work for the treats, then
either the training has gone
terribly, terribly wrong or
the dog isn't meant for that
job.

Leash correction based
training does work.  It works
faster up front, while clicker
training is slower in the
beginning.  However leash
correction training has it's
limits,  because you are
eliminating all the behaviors
you don't want and what is
left are the behaviors you do
want.  Like I said before,
dogs get that click means
treat right away, that's
actually classic conditioning,
but the part that they can
influence when they earn the
click comes a little slower.
Once the dog understands that
they are in control of earning
rewards the learning speeds up
exponentially.  Also because
the dog is actively offering
new behaviors, many things can
be taught with a clicker that
cannot be taught with leash
correction based training.
Things like yawning, wagging,
distance work, off leash
behaviors and the like simply
cannot be taught with leash
corrections.

I think the guide dog schools
teach their students to use
leash corrections because it
is an easy concept to
understand.  Do something bad
get a leash correction, that's
pretty straightforward.
Someone who has never been
around dogs can pick up this
concept in seconds.  However
clicker training is not like
that.  There is a lot more
knowledge base needed to
understand and employ the
training principles.  I have
talked to people who have
attended the TSE  clicker
intro lecture and they don't
understand clicker training.
I don't actually know what is
in the TSE lecture, but I
imagine it is accurate
information, but people are
not coming away with an
accurate 
understanding at all.   Same
thing with GDB.  I have read
their clicker 
lecture materials on the
website and it's all good and
accurate info.  Then I talk to
GDB grads and hear stories
from this list and it is very
clear to me that folks are not
coming away with a good
understanding of clicker
training principles.

NLS has a few books on clicker
training.  BookShare has quite
a few, I'm told.  There is an
incredible amount of
information on the internet,
including the blog that Rox
mentioned about guide dog
training clicker 
conference that GDB just did.
I'd encourage people to read a
few books to 
begin to really understand
what clicker is and what it
isn't before  coming to
inaccurate conclusions.

Julie
Courage to Dare: A Blind
Woman's Quest to Train her Own
Guide Dog is now available!
Get the book here:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00QX
ZSMOC
-----Original Message-----
From: Debby Phillips via nagdu
Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2015
11:02 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the
National Association of Guide
Dog Users ; nagdu at nfbnet.org
Cc: Debby Phillips
Subject: Re: [nagdu] What's up
with all the scavenging
anyhow?

I know that Seeing Eye does
some clicker training, but
students are not required to
take part in it once they get
through training.  Everybody
goes to the first meeting, I
think, and then decides for
themselves.  It did and does
help in targeting specific
things, like a specific chair
in the dining room, a
particular pole, like a pole
for pushing the button at a
light, or a bus stop pole, or
a particular door.  I
certainly would have no
problem using it for very
specific things, but never on
a day-to-day basis.  I can see
how tempting it would be to
use it all the time for
everything.  But I think
that's a very bad idea
and I'm glad that Seeing EYE
does not do that.    Debby and
Nova

______________________________
_________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/list
info/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your
list options or get your
account info for nagdu:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/opti
ons/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%4
0neb.rr.com


-----
No virus found in this
message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2250 / Virus
Database: 4365/9619 - Release
Date: 06/29/15 


______________________________
_________________
nagdu mailing list
nagdu at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/list
info/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your
list options or get your
account info for nagdu:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/opti
ons/nagdu_nfbnet.org/graduate5
6%40juno.com





More information about the NAGDU mailing list