[nagdu] lots and lots of very overweight dogs.

Mon Jul 13 01:34:40 UTC 2015

Raven,
If people don't respect the weight issue for themselves and their human
families, all the talk about dogs and weight isn't going to help much. I
suspect that most of the overweight dogs have overweight handlers, and it
isn't the guide dog trainers' job to change human habits.
Donna & Hunter

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Raven Tolliver
via nagdu
Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2015 4:29 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Raven Tolliver
Subject: Re: [nagdu] lots and lots of very overweight dogs.

Marsha,
We all, including our dogs, usually have a healthy weight range rather than
an even target weight. My golden fluxuates between 66 and 72 lbs throughout
the year, obviously the heavier weight is during the winter. And some dogs
are just ping-pongers where their weight falls within a 10-lbs range. It's
crazy because 10 lbs is so much, but just know it's not the most abnormal
thing ever.

Guide dog schools calculate the target weight by averaging anyway.
This is how we get target weights of 58, 66, or 73 because of averaging. No
one expects your dog to stay the same weight throughout the year. And
obviously things like activity level, food intake, stress level, and body
type affect how a dog looks at a certain weight. It's good that you know
your pup is a ping-ponger, and you take action to weigh her and adjust her
food accordingly.

You know the weight issue is prevalent when a common question guide dog
grads ask the school is if they can have a new harness because they've maxed
out the one they got upon graduation. What?! Obviously people don't know or
are in denial about the fact that being overweight leads to health issues.
I don't remember the entire GEB lecture about weight and obesity, but I
don't think they went in to great detail about the negative effects of being
overweight. People aren't being informed about what the consequences are
until the crap hits the fan.
--
Raven
Founder of 1AM Editing & Research
www.1am-editing.com

You are valuable because of your potential, not because of what you have or
what you do.

Naturally-reared guide dogs
https://groups.google.com/d/forum/nrguidedogs

On 7/12/15, Marsha Drenth via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> I too agree that there are some over weight dogs. My problem seems to
> be that, my puppy loses weight and then can't put it back on. Like
> when I first received my puppy, she was right around 75pounds, when
> she went to the vet a few weeks ago she was more like 65pounds. The
> vet didn't sound like this was a big deal. But, I have increased her
> food just by a tiny bit. I guess because I was so busy during the
> semester, with both of us on the go so much, she lost some. I did not
> take my puppy to convention for several reasons, so no one can say my pup
was one of the over weight dogs.
>
>
> Marsha drenth
> email: marsha.drenth at gmail.com
> Sent with my IPhone
> Please note that this email communication has been sent using my
> iPhone. As such, I may have used dictation and had made attempts to
mitigate errors.
> Please do not be hesitant to ask for clarification as necessary.
>
>> On Jul 12, 2015, at 1:30 PM, Jenine Stanley via nagdu
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Viviana,
>>
>> I understand your feeling and observations here.
>>
>> I was at the other convention this year and just happened to see
>> several dogs. Most I asked to see but a few came up and made
>> themselves known. I then asked if I could interact with them and their
people said yes.
>>
>> One in Particular I feel badly about as it was one of those reflex
>> things and I didn't mean to hurt the lady's feelings. Her dog was not
>> from GDF and was quite obese and the harness was extremely tight.
>> Before I knew it, the following words came out of my mouth.
>>
>> "Oh Honey, did you realize your girl here is quite heavy and her
>> harness is really tight? How much does she weigh?"
>>
>> The lady was wonderful about it and said she'd been working on
>> getting the dog's weight down. I congratulated her on it as the dog
>> had weighed 10 pounds more before she started the process. The dog
>> was still a good 30 pounds overweight.
>>
>> All of our GDF folks will smile at this but we have one instructor
>> who has been with us for a long time. she has no qualms about going
>> up to anyone and scaring them straight if their dog is too heavy.
>> It's often a bit too blunt but truth hurts sometimes.
>>
>> On our January Conference Call for GDF we had a bit of theater when
>> our Director of Canine Care and our Director of Training played out a
>> little skit about weight control. I'll send along the link for that
>> or cut and paste it alone from the call into a DropBox  folder where
>> everyone can listen.
>>
>> The schools may not take your dog away for being chronically obese
>> but they also may not accept you back for training with a successor
>> dog if this continues to be an issue for you. Just saying'.
>> Jenine Stanley
>> jeninems at wowway.com
>>
>> http://www.twitter.com/jeninems
>>
>>> On Jul 12, 2015, at 1:06 PM, Vivianna via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
wrote:
>>>
>>> one man had a dog there, he was bragging that the dog weighed 102
pounds.
>>>  so, i asked if i could look at his dog.  then i said, your dog is
>>> overweight.  he said, yeah, i know.
>>> this dog is only 7 years old and already slowing down greatly.  i
>>> was told that his muzzle is completely gray.
>>> my dog is 6 and, i hope to keep working her for several more years.
>>> and, no, i was not sneaking around feeling everybody's dogs.  i
>>> asked to look at the 102 dog, i asked to look at someone's harness,
>>> i was asked to teach someone something and felt the dog.  then, i
>>> asked some sighted folks to look around for me.
>>> but, i am completely aware that most folks don't want to hear that
>>> they are making their dogs unwell.
>>>
>>> Vivianna
>>>
>>>> On Jul 12, 2015, at 11:57 AM, Becky Frankeberger via nagdu
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Thank you Viviana, and Raven, right on gals. I was in a wheelchair
>>>> for a while so was up close to several dogs five years ago at a
>>>> blindness Convention. A fat labby got between me and my guide.
>>>> Folks she was easily able to put a dinner plate on the dog's back
>>>> this little dog was so incredibly obese. I looked up and the lady
>>>> wasn't fat who had this little piggy on a leash. Hey I was ready to
>>>> take the dog from her I was so outraged. After we untangled and
>>>> several people were grumping at us for holding up the line, she
>>>> went one way and I went the other. But oh I never forgot how bad
>>>> that dog looked. Wonder if her school reps were there and rolling
>>>> their eyes at her. Hopefully one of those reps took her aside and
educated her.
>>>>
>>>> Let's myth bust. Dogs who get spade or neutered aren't destined to
>>>> gain weight. That is a total myth lie, something some sighted
>>>> person told you to pat you on the head. You control the food cup.
>>>> You control the exercise routine. You control medical care. It is
>>>> you who needs educated. So yes I beg NAGDU to get serious and have
>>>> several articles in your magazine. I also beg you all have
>>>> instructors at convention give a seminar and you go to those
>>>> instructors and ask them.  teach how to keep your dog's slim and trim,
so both can work as a team.
>>>>
>>>> I had a fat dog, my first. I know what fat is. My vet pat me on the
>>>> head and I was so dumb I didn't realize it. Fed him a cup and a half a
day.
>>>> Walked him every day.
>>>>
>>>> So stand up handlers and face the facts.
>>>>
>>>> Becky and slender golden Jake
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Raven
>>>> Tolliver via nagdu
>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 11:49 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Cc: Raven Tolliver
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] lots and lots of very overweight dogs.
>>>>
>>>> Vivianna,
>>>> I agree, the number of overweight guide dogs is very saddening.
>>>> NAGDU should put on a presentation about canine weight control, or
>>>> ask one of the schools to do it. The schools seem to be very
>>>> assertive and adamantly opposed to overweight guides, so a guide
>>>> dog program should be more than happy to put on a presentation or
>>>> conference call about weight control.
>>>>
>>>> I lived with a woman whose guide dog is horribly overweight. I
>>>> mean, her dog's target weight is 58 lbs, and she weighed about 70
>>>> lbs. I told her the dog might have a thyroid problem. And I also
>>>> told her to stop feeding her dog all the treats and doggie-friendly
muffins and breads.
>>>> What is the point of that crap? She said that her dog just loves
>>>> food, and immediately jumped to, "Well, I can't afford the
>>>> testing." That was untrue for a period of time, and that is all I will
say about that.
>>>>
>>>> So two problems should be tackled:
>>>> 1. I don't think people know what their options are with testing or
>>>> alternative approaches to reducing weight.
>>>> 2. I also think some people show their dogs love and appreciation
>>>> by feeding them goodies to their detriment. People don't know what
>>>> constitutes healthy or appropriate dog treats, or even what is an
>>>> excessive amount of treats.
>>>>
>>>> The schools should have no problem talking about the issues of
>>>> recognizing weight gain, the health challenges caused by excessive
>>>> weight gain, options for testing and reducing weight, appropriate
>>>> exercise routines, and appropriate type and amounts of treats. They
>>>> cover it at schools, so they can take it to the streets.
>>>>
>>>> I think weight gain is so prevalent now that it is the norm. It's
>>>> normal to be fat and sick. That was not polite or diplomatic, but
>>>> that is the truth. If people were encouraged to and taught how to
>>>> educate themselves, they could research and understand how to get
>>>> off those meds that cause weight gain, or ditch that diet that is
>>>> only fueling the fire brought on by weight gain, and adopting
>>>> proper diets that help the body heal itself and throw off the extra
>>>> weight. Also, people spend way too much time on their butts, and in
turn, dogs do too.
>>>> The hot new thing to say is that sitting is the new smoking. And it
>>>> really is. People want to eat large servings of food, snack all
>>>> day, and feed their dogs the diet of an active dog, while they do
>>>> little activity each day. Then people want to give their dog all
>>>> these baked goods, chips, cookies, and extra canine crunchies, and
>>>> just don't care that their dog is overweight. Someone should let
>>>> people know that food intake should decrease with activity level.
>>>>
>>>> Some guide dog schools will take the dog back for being overweight.
>>>> They usually try to work with the client, providing them with
>>>> information on exercise and diet for a period. If their efforts are
>>>> ineffective or not adopted, then they will take the dog back, get
>>>> the weight off, and consider returning the dog to the graduate, or
>>>> just return it if this is a first time offense, so to speak.
>>>>
>>>> There are a number of reasons why many people and their pets are
>>>> overweight. That doesn't mean we shouldn't say something about it,
>>>> point it out, and actively promote and circulate ideas to stop this
>>>> state of ill-health. Too many people say live and let live. I can
>>>> say that so long as people aren't negatively affecting those around
>>>> them and the ones they take care of, but that's not the case here.
>>>> This is not an occasion to pity, explain, or justify, this is an
>>>> opportunity to educate. The first step to dealing with a problem is
>>>> pointing it out. If people feel that that is being critical,
>>>> offensive, or rude, that is unfortunate that they are missing the
over-arcing issue at hand.
>>>> Vivianna was not measuring people's dogs, and she didn't rudely
>>>> approach anyone and accost them about their dog's weight, according to
her post.
>>>> She is just showing that she was disturbed by the abundance of
>>>> overweight guides at convention, and understandably so. It is also
>>>> good that she is posing a solution rather than solely focusing on
>>>> the problem.
>>>> --
>>>> Raven
>>>> Founder of 1AM Editing & Research
>>>> www.1am-editing.com
>>>>
>>>> You are valuable because of your potential, not because of what you
>>>> have or what you do.
>>>>
>>>> Naturally-reared guide dogs
>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/forum/nrguidedogs
>>>>
>>>>> On 7/11/15, Tami Jarvis via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>> Well, if I were at a convention, I would hope other handlers
>>>>> wouldn't be feeling up my dog! With Mitzi, I was fairly casual
>>>>> about letting people interact with her, compared to a lot of
>>>>> handlers I know, but that didn't involve poking her ribs! Muscle
>>>>> weighs more than fat, so now that she's retired and not as active
>>>>> in general, she weighs less than she did at her youthful ideal
>>>>> fitness level but is a bit pudgy. I can still tell she has ribs,
>>>>> but I need to do better at being sure she gets exercise.
>>>>> Even when she was perfectly fit, people would ask if she was
>>>>> getting fat when her coat was grown out, especially if I had just
>>>>> done a real thorough brushing. Then I would get her to a groomer
>>>>> and she would look as trim as she was, at least for a couple of
>>>>> weeks. /lol/ Loki is a gangly adolescent, so to people who miss
>>>>> the obvious signs of puppyhood, it probably looks like I'm
>>>>> starving him even when he's fluffy. /shrug/
>>>>>
>>>>> There do seem to be a lot of guides on regular medication these
>>>>> days, and some of those meds can cause weight gain. Turns out a
>>>>> lot of blind people have additional issues requiring medications
>>>>> which cause weight gain, too, even though they and their dogs get
>>>>> tons of exercise and eat healthy diets. That's true of the
>>>>> able-bodied population, too, as are variations of metabolism without
other influences.
>>>>>
>>>>> Meanwhile, even an observer with good vision couldn't make an
>>>>> accurate evaluation of a group of dogs with varying coat
>>>>> thickness, muscle density, build, age and gender. To decide
>>>>> there's a plague of obesity due to negligence would require
>>>>> getting case histories, lists of medications, and a bunch of other
>>>>> information even once you've determined a given dog is carrying
>>>>> excess fat. Maybe there are handlers out there who will volunteer
>>>>> that sort of information to someone met at convention. Hi, how's
>>>>> it going, my dog is supposed to weigh 72 pounds but weighs 92 pounds,
what about those Mets...
>>>>>
>>>>> Anything I've read lately talks about BMI (body mass index) and
>>>>> dismisses weight as a general indicator of whether the dog is
>>>>> properly fed and fit. Of course, I've mostly been looking for
>>>>> information about growing puppies, so that may have something to
>>>>> do with it. If you know your adult dog's weight when it's at a
>>>>> good BMI, then you know the weight range that is healthy for your
>>>>> dog. That will be consistent during the dog's prime barring other
health factors.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm sure there are handlers out there who simply overfeed their
>>>>> guides and don't get them enough exercise. Programs that routinely
>>>>> track weights and other health factors might provide statistical
>>>>> data showing whether or not there's an epidemic of overfed,
>>>>> underexercised dogs in the populations they track. I would bet the
>>>>> programs include education about the health risks associated with
>>>>> obesity. Which is not to say more education wouldn't be both
>>>>> useful and interesting, and it may inspire a lax handler or two to
>>>>> do better with their dogs' weight management.
>>>>>
>>>>> Meanwhile, I sincerely hope there doesn't get to be an epidemic of
>>>>> handlers checking out all the dogs to find out if they're fat or
>>>>> fluffy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tami
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 07/11/2015 11:59 AM, The Pawpower Pack via nagdu wrote:
>>>>>> Valerie,
>>>>>> Very well said.  I think it's most important to mind our own
business.
>>>>>> None of us is perfect and I personally prefer to work on my own
>>>>>> issues or my dogs than to point fingers at other teams.
>>>>>> I was not at the convention and anyway I can't see well enough to
>>>>>> know if a dog is fat unless I touch them.
>>>>>> There could be reasons for a dog being overweight.  Thyroid
>>>>>> disease is very common among labs and goldens.  Some dogs are
>>>>>> very fluffy, and the fur can look like fat.  Some dogs, like my
>>>>>> Soleil, are extremely musculer.
>>>>>> I think it's good to have perhaps a presentation or discussion
>>>>>> round table from handlers with different lifestyles.
>>>>>> For example an active handler who walks miles daily, a handler
>>>>>> which is less active and maybe a person who only goes for leasure
>>>>>> walks or with a sighted person in the car.  It would help people
>>>>>> perhaps get ideas about ways to work and exercise their dogs to
>>>>>> keep mind and body healthy.
>>>>>> As for the rate of blind people being overweight, once again,
>>>>>> that's not my business.  It's pretty objectifying if you are
>>>>>> looking at people and making judgements about their physical
>>>>>> wellbeing.  Weight is a very personal issue, and a person's
>>>>>> weight does not determine their physical health.
>>>>>> If people would like to become healthier, that's their decision
>>>>>> and I know the federation has workshops on exercises or sports
>>>>>> you can do if there is interest.
>>>>>> And yes, programs, I'm especially thinking of GEB here, have
>>>>>> taken dogs back because of being overweight.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rox and the kitchen Bitches:
>>>>>> Mill'E, Laveau, Soleil
>>>>>> Pawpower4me at gmail.com
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jul 11, 2015, at 1:11 PM, Valerie Gibson via nagdu
>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> First allow me to say that i believe your post was a bit ill
>>>>>>> worded and came across as somewhat rude.  The person(s) that you
>>>>>>> spoke of are probably on this list, and many people get touchy
>>>>>>> when you criticize them or their dogs like that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That being said, I understand where you're coming from, though I
>>>>>>> may have worded it a bit more gently.  To me, your post is just
>>>>>>> screaming offensive, which might put people's guards up.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have a question for you though.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Did you talk to the owners of the dogs in question privately?
>>>>>>> You want the NAGDU to say something at next convention, but what
>>>>>>> about us on an individual basis?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The truth is obesity is a very sad and common problem among
>>>>>>> dogs, and not just the guide dogs.  One would think that guide
>>>>>>> dogs should suffer from it less because they are supposed to be
>>>>>>> more active than the average pet.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Therefore I believe the more relivent question is, how often are
>>>>>>> people working their dogs or giving their dogs adequate
>>>>>>> exersize, which would cut down on obesity?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Another thing, you don't "know" how much an individual dog
>>>>>>> should weigh.
>>>>>>> There is a breed average, but some dogs fall above or below that.
>>>>>>> My akita is rather large for his breed, so to say he's
>>>>>>> overweight would be highly offensive to me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you're going by the method of looking at the ribs of the dog
>>>>>>> to determine obesity, that's at least better.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know i'm stating something that everyone on here should know,
>>>>>>> and maybe i'm the only one who had hackles raised after reading
>>>>>>> this, but unless you talked with these owners of overweight dogs
>>>>>>> personally, privately and with care and concern, I see no point
>>>>>>> in going on a public list to point the finger at people who have
>>>>>>> overweight dogs.  We all may not know of whom you speak, but
>>>>>>> perhaps the people with dogs remember you, and they might be
>>>>>>> wondering if you've just insulted them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If I appear more defensive than is warranted, my apologies. I'm
>>>>>>> running on hardly any sleep in the past two weeks. Perhaps I
>>>>>>> misinterpreted your message.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I do understand your annoyance with overweight dogs and guide
>>>>>>> dogs who hardly work at all. I mean, what's the point of a guide
>>>>>>> dog if the dog is not being used and is gaining more weight than
>>>>>>> is healthy?  At the end of the day, a dog is a dog, and if you
>>>>>>> are, for some reason unable to work your dog, I'm sure you can
>>>>>>> gt a family member/friend/serivce to walk your dog for at least
>>>>>>> 20 minutes out of the day.  But I'd say that for any dog, not  just
for guide dogs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Personally I don't think NAGDU should go out of it's way to step
>>>>>>> in for something that is basic dog ownership because as I've
>>>>>>> said, this is not a guide dog thing; it's a dog thing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm done rambling for now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Jul 11, 2015, at 10:52 AM, Vivianna via nagdu
>>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> hi all,
>>>>>>>> well, i just got back from the national convention.  i have to
>>>>>>>> say that there were lots of extremely overweight dogs there.
>>>>>>>> don't people know that this is the worst thing that you can do
>>>>>>>> to your dog?
>>>>>>>> i am sure no school takes away dogs due to their weight or,
>>>>>>>> they would have had to bring busloads of crates to take away
>>>>>>>> all of those poor dogs.
>>>>>>>> if your dog should weigh 70 pounds, for example, but, he weighs
>>>>>>>> 92 pounds and feels like a bowl of jelly, he certainly is not a
>>>>>>>> healthy dog and, most likely he is not being worked very much
>>>>>>>> either.
>>>>>>>> i saw a woman feeding her dog potato chips during general session.
>>>>>>>> maybe NAGDU should have someone speak about the dangers of
>>>>>>>> being fat next year?  not sure it will do any good, but, i
>>>>>>>> would go listen.
>>>>>>>> kevin wurly from WE fitness also said that, the blindness
>>>>>>>> community has the highest percentage of overweight people of
>>>>>>>> any group of people, 90 percent of blind folks are overweight.
>>>>>>>> very interesting.
>>>>>>>> regarding the ownership of your dog.  i, frankly, don't think
>>>>>>>> any school will take a dog because it's overweight.
>>>>>>>> i actually called animal control on my neighbors and, they told
>>>>>>>> me that they could not do anything unless the dog has no food,
>>>>>>>> water and shelter.
>>>>>>>> in this particular case, the dog had none of the above but,
>>>>>>>> they still did nothing and, the neighbors still have the dog.
>>>>>>>> unfortunately, if someone really wants to abuse their dog, they
>>>>>>>> will be able to do it. all we can do is try and educate folks
>>>>>>>> and hope they are nice responsible people.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Vivianna
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
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