[nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am disappointed

Marianne Denning marianne at denningweb.com
Mon Jul 13 12:07:15 UTC 2015 

Michael, I agree with you about the well-being of the dogs.  I don't
think there is any way to screen out all people who would abuse dogs.
Some people who get a dog have never had a dog in the home so have no
idea about the responsibility required to have a guide dog.

I am paying attention to all that is said and I can see both sides
now.  Does anyone have suggestions on how schools could help insure
the safety of the dogs they train?

This is just one suggestion, but what about a probationary period for
a first time trainee?  That is just a suggestion and I hope there will
be others.

On 7/13/15, Michael Forzano via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> My only concern with the resolution was for the well-being of the
> dogs. However, after reading this thread, I'm willing to give it
> consideration. It seems that the argument is that better screening
> processes would prevent dogs from being given to people who shouldn't
> have them. I talked with one of the instructors from my school who
> felt that it is pretty easy for a person to put on a good show for a
> 2-hour home interview. In training, everything is supervised; you are
> told when to feed, park and groom your dog, when to work your dog,
> etc. so there is likely little opportunity to mistreat your dog unless
> you want to be sent home without them. So what kinds of better
> screening processes would prevent dogs from being given to handlers
> who would be likely to mistreat them?
>
> I'm not against having high expectations for blind people, but this
> mistreatment of dogs seems to be a real issue (see also the thread on
> overweight dogs at convention). The schools breed, care for, and fund
> (through donations) the training of these dogs, so it only makes sense
> that they want them to be placed in good homes and utilized to their
> full potential.
>
> Mike
>
> On 7/11/15, larry d keeler via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Cindy, write me offlist please! I may have friends you may have met.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy ray via
>> nagdu
>> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 8:58 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Cc: Cindy ray
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am disappointed
>>
>> Maybe the restaurant is a bad analogy. The dogs are gifts. They are given
>> on
>> behalf of the donors. Your use of other gifts is not monitored, so why
>> should this gift be?
>> Also, there are always bad apples, but why should all be penalized? We
>> need
>> to trust ourselves more than that, too.
>>
>>
>> Cindy Lou Ray
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Jul 11, 2015, at 6:51 PM, Marsha Drenth via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> As all topics on the list, this one will soon enough die. Everyone needs
>>> to remember that we all have the right to express our opinion, to agree
>>> and disagree about topics like ownership. So for those people who have
>>> agreed with unconditional ownership, you have as much of a right to say
>>> what you would like, as do the people who do not agree. Just because you
>>> can't see the other side, doesn't mean it's not right.
>>>
>>> I too did not know about this resolution before getting to convention, it
>>> would have been nice to discuss this before hand.
>>> I would also like to say, this is my opinion and only my opinion, I think
>>> that even within the nfb, there is a hierarchy of some people and others.
>>> I don't know why this is, but I think the two persons that spoke against
>>> the resolution at convention, are not a part of nagdu and a part of that
>>> higher elite. That is the way I see it at least.
>>>
>>> Marsha drenth
>>> email: marsha.drenth at gmail.com
>>> Sent with my IPhone
>>> Please note that this email communication has been sent using my iPhone.
>>> As such, I may have used dictation and had made attempts to mitigate
>>> errors. Please do not be hesitant to ask for clarification as necessary.
>>>
>>>> On Jul 11, 2015, at 7:09 PM, Howard J. Levine via nagdu
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> You make no sence when you go to Restaurant you pay your food they don't
>>>> give it you for free, and by way guide dog living thing. This subject is
>>>> getting old.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of larry d
>>>> keeler via nagdu
>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 6:49 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Cc: larry d keeler
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am disappointed
>>>>
>>>> Well, like Burger King or McDonalds or Wendy's, the burgers are
>>>> different
>>>> but you own them after going there!
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of margo and
>>>> isis via nagdu
>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 6:33 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Cc: margo and isis
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am disappointed
>>>>
>>>> Oh, I hope the conditional ownership programs decrease or change to
>>>> unconditional ownership.  There is no valid reason, in my opinion, for
>>>> schools not to allow unconditional ownership.  The Seeig Eye has done
>>>> that since its inception and other schools have tried it and made it
>>>> work.
>>>>
>>>> Margo and Isis
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tina
>>>> Thomas via nagdu
>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 6:10 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Cc: Tina Thomas
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am disappointed
>>>>
>>>> Hello Everyone- I think it is important to remember that we as guide dog
>>>> users have a choice of what training program we would like to attend. I
>>>> don't want a one size fits all training program. Its like going to
>>>> Burger
>>>> King and excepting   to get a Big Mac. It is my belief that we as guide
>>>> dog users need to educate each other as well as people looking to get a
>>>> dog  on the different policies and practices of all of the training
>>>> programs  so  that we can make an informed choice of which program fits
>>>> our needs. Now if unconditional ownership is a deciding factor in one
>>>> obtaining a dog, then apply to a program that grants it and the programs
>>>> that have a conditional ownership policy will start to decrease in their
>>>> numbers. As of the here and now, those programs who have conditional
>>>> ownership policies don't have an incentive to change because of their
>>>> numbers.
>>>> Jmts.
>>>> Tina
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Debby
>>>> Phillips via nagdu
>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 10:00 AM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Cc: Debby Phillips
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am disappointed
>>>>
>>>> It is doubtful to me whether people will really change schools because
>>>> of
>>>> ownership. I think there are lots of folks who aren't users of guide
>>>> dogs
>>>> within MFB who do not understand the issues.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 10, 2015, at 10:59 AM, larry d keeler via nagdu
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, until something happens to convince NFB to get on board, it will
>>>>> certainly be wise to read your choice of schools contract. It could
>>>>> make
>>>>> a difference if people start going to schools where ownership is
>>>>> offered
>>>>> and stop going to schools who's contracts don't offer it! Consumer
>>>>> choice!
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie J.
>>>>> via nagdu
>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 10, 2015 10:41 AM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Cc: Julie J.
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am
>>>>> disappointed
>>>>>
>>>>> Shannon,
>>>>>
>>>>> The resolution itself changes nothing at the guide dog schools.  The
>>>>> resolutions are used as guiding principles for the organization.  A
>>>>> positive vote means that the organization will/can actively pursue that
>>>>> goal.  a negative vote means little because the goal can still be
>>>>> pursued, just not with the force of the entire organization behind it.
>>>>> Once a resolution is passed, the decentors are supposed to keep their
>>>>> dissenting opinions to themselves and support the vote.  However a
>>>>> resolution that didn't pass means that the concept is still up for
>>>>> debate or discussion.  A resolution that doesn't pass isn't considered
>>>>> to be a policy or decision.  For example the resolution we are
>>>>> discussing if passed would mean that the NFB would actively work with
>>>>> the guide dog schools to provide ownership.  since it didn't pass it
>>>>> means nothing.  It doesn't mean that the NFB supports non ownership.
>>>>> It
>>>>> means the issue is still open and undecided. If folks wanted the NFB's
>>>>> position and support to go to the idea of the schools retaining
>>>>> ownership, then a resolution to that effect would have to be introduced
>>>>> and passed. Perhaps the resolutions could be viewed as a priority list
>>>>> of things the organization wants to accomplish.  At least this is the
>>>>> way I have always understood resolutions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Julie
>>>>> Courage to Dare: A Blind Woman's Quest to Train her Own Guide Dog is
>>>>> now
>>>>> available! Get the book here:
>>>>> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00QXZSMOC
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Shannon Dyer via nagdu
>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 10, 2015 9:26 AM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Cc: Shannon Dyer
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am
>>>>> disappointed
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi, all.
>>>>>
>>>>> I mean no disrespect here. I’m just seeking to understand the
>>>>> resolution
>>>>> better.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, if it had passed, how would this have affected the schools? For
>>>>> example, if I chose to go to a school that did not grant immediate
>>>>> ownership, how would this resolution have helped me? My understanding
>>>>> is
>>>>> that the guide dog schools are independent entities. How does this
>>>>> resolution get them to change their policies?
>>>>>
>>>>> Curiously,
>>>>> Shannon and the Acelet
>>>>>> On Jul 9, 2015, at 9:59 PM, Becky Sabo via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hey Tina, I agree it shouldn't not gone to the rollcall upstate. At
>>>>>> least it did not go through. Becky Sabo
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jul 9, 2015, at 9:44 PM, Tina Thomas via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> <mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well to be truthfully honest it never should've went to a rollcall
>>>>>> states it was obvious that the nose had it but hey somebody just
>>>>>> couldn't take the loss so they try to sneak it through by asking
>>>>>> for a rollcall but thank God in the end democracy and justice
>>>>>> prevailed
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jul 9, 2015, at 5:44 PM, Julie J. via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So this went to a counted vote by the state delegates?  Where can
>>>>>>> I go to see which state voted which way?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And was this announced on this list?  I honestly had no idea this
>>>>>>> resolution was being presented until it was way too late to talk
>>>>>>> to the people in my state about it.  Hopefully they know my
>>>>>>> thoughts on the subject, but I'm not there and it bothers me that
>>>>>>> I didn't know to be able to explain my views beforehand.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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-- 
Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
(513) 607-6053

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