[nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am disappointed

Marianne Denning marianne at denningweb.com
Mon Jul 13 13:09:51 UTC 2015


Buddy, I love your idea.

On 7/13/15, Buddy Brannan via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> I'd really love to look at the data here. Do schools like the Seeing Eye,
> GDA, GDF, Freedom, and Pilot, which offer full ownership upon graduation,
> have a higher incidence of dog abuse, neglect, or substandard care than do
> schools who retain partial ownership, have dogs on a probationary ownership
> period, or retain full ownership throughout the dog's life? Particularly
> instructive would be statistics from Leader, who granted full ownership for
> years, if not decades, then changed its policy, I note, twice within about
> five years. Of course, such statistics from Seeing Eye, who has had this
> policy longer than anyone else, would also be instructive. Perhaps seeing
> these would put to rest the "it's for the dogs" argument.
>
> --
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> Phone: 814-860-3194
> Mobile: 814-431-0962
> Email: buddy at brannan.name
>
>
>
>
>> On Jul 13, 2015, at 8:07 AM, Marianne Denning via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Michael, I agree with you about the well-being of the dogs.  I don't
>> think there is any way to screen out all people who would abuse dogs.
>> Some people who get a dog have never had a dog in the home so have no
>> idea about the responsibility required to have a guide dog.
>>
>> I am paying attention to all that is said and I can see both sides
>> now.  Does anyone have suggestions on how schools could help insure
>> the safety of the dogs they train?
>>
>> This is just one suggestion, but what about a probationary period for
>> a first time trainee?  That is just a suggestion and I hope there will
>> be others.
>>
>> On 7/13/15, Michael Forzano via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> My only concern with the resolution was for the well-being of the
>>> dogs. However, after reading this thread, I'm willing to give it
>>> consideration. It seems that the argument is that better screening
>>> processes would prevent dogs from being given to people who shouldn't
>>> have them. I talked with one of the instructors from my school who
>>> felt that it is pretty easy for a person to put on a good show for a
>>> 2-hour home interview. In training, everything is supervised; you are
>>> told when to feed, park and groom your dog, when to work your dog,
>>> etc. so there is likely little opportunity to mistreat your dog unless
>>> you want to be sent home without them. So what kinds of better
>>> screening processes would prevent dogs from being given to handlers
>>> who would be likely to mistreat them?
>>>
>>> I'm not against having high expectations for blind people, but this
>>> mistreatment of dogs seems to be a real issue (see also the thread on
>>> overweight dogs at convention). The schools breed, care for, and fund
>>> (through donations) the training of these dogs, so it only makes sense
>>> that they want them to be placed in good homes and utilized to their
>>> full potential.
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> On 7/11/15, larry d keeler via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> Cindy, write me offlist please! I may have friends you may have met.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy ray via
>>>> nagdu
>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 8:58 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Cc: Cindy ray
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am disappointed
>>>>
>>>> Maybe the restaurant is a bad analogy. The dogs are gifts. They are
>>>> given
>>>> on
>>>> behalf of the donors. Your use of other gifts is not monitored, so why
>>>> should this gift be?
>>>> Also, there are always bad apples, but why should all be penalized? We
>>>> need
>>>> to trust ourselves more than that, too.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cindy Lou Ray
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 11, 2015, at 6:51 PM, Marsha Drenth via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> As all topics on the list, this one will soon enough die. Everyone
>>>>> needs
>>>>> to remember that we all have the right to express our opinion, to agree
>>>>> and disagree about topics like ownership. So for those people who have
>>>>> agreed with unconditional ownership, you have as much of a right to say
>>>>> what you would like, as do the people who do not agree. Just because
>>>>> you
>>>>> can't see the other side, doesn't mean it's not right.
>>>>>
>>>>> I too did not know about this resolution before getting to convention,
>>>>> it
>>>>> would have been nice to discuss this before hand.
>>>>> I would also like to say, this is my opinion and only my opinion, I
>>>>> think
>>>>> that even within the nfb, there is a hierarchy of some people and
>>>>> others.
>>>>> I don't know why this is, but I think the two persons that spoke
>>>>> against
>>>>> the resolution at convention, are not a part of nagdu and a part of
>>>>> that
>>>>> higher elite. That is the way I see it at least.
>>>>>
>>>>> Marsha drenth
>>>>> email: marsha.drenth at gmail.com
>>>>> Sent with my IPhone
>>>>> Please note that this email communication has been sent using my
>>>>> iPhone.
>>>>> As such, I may have used dictation and had made attempts to mitigate
>>>>> errors. Please do not be hesitant to ask for clarification as
>>>>> necessary.
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jul 11, 2015, at 7:09 PM, Howard J. Levine via nagdu
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You make no sence when you go to Restaurant you pay your food they
>>>>>> don't
>>>>>> give it you for free, and by way guide dog living thing. This subject
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> getting old.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of larry d
>>>>>> keeler via nagdu
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 6:49 PM
>>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>>> Cc: larry d keeler
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am disappointed
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, like Burger King or McDonalds or Wendy's, the burgers are
>>>>>> different
>>>>>> but you own them after going there!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of margo and
>>>>>> isis via nagdu
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 6:33 PM
>>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>>> Cc: margo and isis
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am disappointed
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oh, I hope the conditional ownership programs decrease or change to
>>>>>> unconditional ownership.  There is no valid reason, in my opinion, for
>>>>>> schools not to allow unconditional ownership.  The Seeig Eye has done
>>>>>> that since its inception and other schools have tried it and made it
>>>>>> work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Margo and Isis
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tina
>>>>>> Thomas via nagdu
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 6:10 PM
>>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>>> Cc: Tina Thomas
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am disappointed
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello Everyone- I think it is important to remember that we as guide
>>>>>> dog
>>>>>> users have a choice of what training program we would like to attend.
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> don't want a one size fits all training program. Its like going to
>>>>>> Burger
>>>>>> King and excepting   to get a Big Mac. It is my belief that we as
>>>>>> guide
>>>>>> dog users need to educate each other as well as people looking to get
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> dog  on the different policies and practices of all of the training
>>>>>> programs  so  that we can make an informed choice of which program
>>>>>> fits
>>>>>> our needs. Now if unconditional ownership is a deciding factor in one
>>>>>> obtaining a dog, then apply to a program that grants it and the
>>>>>> programs
>>>>>> that have a conditional ownership policy will start to decrease in
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> numbers. As of the here and now, those programs who have conditional
>>>>>> ownership policies don't have an incentive to change because of their
>>>>>> numbers.
>>>>>> Jmts.
>>>>>> Tina
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Debby
>>>>>> Phillips via nagdu
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 10:00 AM
>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>> Cc: Debby Phillips
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am disappointed
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is doubtful to me whether people will really change schools because
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> ownership. I think there are lots of folks who aren't users of guide
>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>> within MFB who do not understand the issues.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jul 10, 2015, at 10:59 AM, larry d keeler via nagdu
>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, until something happens to convince NFB to get on board, it
>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>> certainly be wise to read your choice of schools contract. It could
>>>>>>> make
>>>>>>> a difference if people start going to schools where ownership is
>>>>>>> offered
>>>>>>> and stop going to schools who's contracts don't offer it! Consumer
>>>>>>> choice!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie J.
>>>>>>> via nagdu
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 10, 2015 10:41 AM
>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>>> Cc: Julie J.
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am
>>>>>>> disappointed
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Shannon,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The resolution itself changes nothing at the guide dog schools.  The
>>>>>>> resolutions are used as guiding principles for the organization.  A
>>>>>>> positive vote means that the organization will/can actively pursue
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> goal.  a negative vote means little because the goal can still be
>>>>>>> pursued, just not with the force of the entire organization behind
>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>> Once a resolution is passed, the decentors are supposed to keep their
>>>>>>> dissenting opinions to themselves and support the vote.  However a
>>>>>>> resolution that didn't pass means that the concept is still up for
>>>>>>> debate or discussion.  A resolution that doesn't pass isn't
>>>>>>> considered
>>>>>>> to be a policy or decision.  For example the resolution we are
>>>>>>> discussing if passed would mean that the NFB would actively work with
>>>>>>> the guide dog schools to provide ownership.  since it didn't pass it
>>>>>>> means nothing.  It doesn't mean that the NFB supports non ownership.
>>>>>>> It
>>>>>>> means the issue is still open and undecided. If folks wanted the
>>>>>>> NFB's
>>>>>>> position and support to go to the idea of the schools retaining
>>>>>>> ownership, then a resolution to that effect would have to be
>>>>>>> introduced
>>>>>>> and passed. Perhaps the resolutions could be viewed as a priority
>>>>>>> list
>>>>>>> of things the organization wants to accomplish.  At least this is the
>>>>>>> way I have always understood resolutions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>> Courage to Dare: A Blind Woman's Quest to Train her Own Guide Dog is
>>>>>>> now
>>>>>>> available! Get the book here:
>>>>>>> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00QXZSMOC
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Shannon Dyer via nagdu
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 10, 2015 9:26 AM
>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>>> Cc: Shannon Dyer
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am
>>>>>>> disappointed
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi, all.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I mean no disrespect here. I’m just seeking to understand the
>>>>>>> resolution
>>>>>>> better.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, if it had passed, how would this have affected the schools? For
>>>>>>> example, if I chose to go to a school that did not grant immediate
>>>>>>> ownership, how would this resolution have helped me? My understanding
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> that the guide dog schools are independent entities. How does this
>>>>>>> resolution get them to change their policies?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Curiously,
>>>>>>> Shannon and the Acelet
>>>>>>>> On Jul 9, 2015, at 9:59 PM, Becky Sabo via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hey Tina, I agree it shouldn't not gone to the rollcall upstate. At
>>>>>>>> least it did not go through. Becky Sabo
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Jul 9, 2015, at 9:44 PM, Tina Thomas via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> <mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well to be truthfully honest it never should've went to a rollcall
>>>>>>>> states it was obvious that the nose had it but hey somebody just
>>>>>>>> couldn't take the loss so they try to sneak it through by asking
>>>>>>>> for a rollcall but thank God in the end democracy and justice
>>>>>>>> prevailed
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Jul 9, 2015, at 5:44 PM, Julie J. via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So this went to a counted vote by the state delegates?  Where can
>>>>>>>>> I go to see which state voted which way?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And was this announced on this list?  I honestly had no idea this
>>>>>>>>> resolution was being presented until it was way too late to talk
>>>>>>>>> to the people in my state about it.  Hopefully they know my
>>>>>>>>> thoughts on the subject, but I'm not there and it bothers me that
>>>>>>>>> I didn't know to be able to explain my views beforehand.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>> gm
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> m
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
>> Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
>> (513) 607-6053
>>
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>
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-- 
Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
(513) 607-6053




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