[nagdu] On the subject of gifts

larry d keeler lkeeler at comcast.net
Mon Jul 13 18:27:49 UTC 2015


I heard from a friend who moved to iowa that this was the only one that
didn't pass. Wondering if that's true? 

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of melissa R green
via nagdu
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2015 12:52 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Cc: melissa R green
Subject: Re: [nagdu] On the subject of gifts

I had never thought of it that
way.  You make a good point
Julie.  Another thing is that
people were saying that they
didn't understand the mention
of due process, and couldn't a
person sue for discrimination.
Like I have stated, this
resolution didn't pass but it
still is raising many issues
for discussion.


Have a blessed day.
Best regards,
Melissa R Green and Pj
Love is being committed with
out a guarantee.

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu
[mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.o
rg] On Behalf Of Julie
McGinnity via nagdu
Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2015
9:10 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the
National Association of Guide
Dog Users
Cc: Julie McGinnity
Subject: Re: [nagdu] On the
subject of gifts

Hi all,

Another point on gifts...  If
I get a gift from a friend,
that friend would never tell
me that I only partially own
that gift.  She wouldn't give
my ownership of that gift
qualifiers, even if it was
expected that I am grateful
for it.  So if we're talking
literal gifts here, then why
does calling a guide dog a
gift negate the ownership
issue?



On 7/12/15, Julie J. via nagdu
<nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> I'm so confused.  You wrote:
> *I did vote against the
resolution because it isn't a
big issue to me 
> and won't determine where I
go for a dog. I hope all of us
will work 
> with our schools directly to
change the ownership policy of
our 
> school...  Hopefully, that
will change back to ownership
upon 
> completion of training in
the future. I plan to work
with Leader Dog 
> on this issue.*
>
> So you say it's not a big
issue and then go on to say
you are working 
> with Leader on this issue to
change it back to ownership
after 
> graduation.  If it
>
> isn't important to you why
are you working on it?  And
why did you 
> vote no and then go on to
say you hope we will all work
on this issue?  
> Isn't that what a resolution
is supposed to do, get us all
on the same 
> page and working
>
> on the same issues? If you
hope everyone will work on
this issue, then 
> a yes
>
> vote would have been one
step closer to making that
happen.  Is there 
> a giant misunderstanding of
what resolutions are?
>
> It is clear that NAGDU has a
lot of educating to do and I
think we 
> need to start right here.  I
am very disappointed that the
two 
> resolutions were not
>
> discussed on this list.  I
am disappointed that the NAGDU
membership 
> doesn't
>
> understand the issues.
Those who do understand are
voting no because 
> it isn't a big issue for
them.  What happened to
supporting the division?
>
> There are a lot of blindness
issues that I'm pretty
indifferent to, 
> money identification,
accessible  school textbooks
and the nuances of 
> the Braille
>
> code.   They don't influence
my life on a day to day basis
and therefore
> they just don't get the same
attention that something like
guide dog 
> ownership does.  I don't
really see any issue with
that.  We all have 
> things
>
> we are more knowledgeable
and passionate about.  The big
difference is 
> that
>
> when these topics came up, I
didn't get in the way of those

> individuals advocating on
these issues.
>
> Julie
> Courage to Dare: A Blind
Woman's Quest to Train her Own
Guide Dog is 
> now available! Get the book
here:
>
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00QX
ZSMOC
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marianne Denning via
nagdu
> Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2015
7:38 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the
National Association of Guide
Dog Users
> Cc: Marianne Denning
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] On the
subject of gifts
>
> Michael, I am working with
my fifth dog from Leader Dog.
I had 
> unconditional ownership
through my 3rd dog.  Sadly,
something happened 
> between my 3rd and 4th dogs
so Leader Dog changed the
policy.  Large 
> donors, like Lions Clubs,
want to believe no one who
receives a dog 
> would abuse it and that the
school can insure that doesn't
happen.
> There is no way to insure
that no dog is ever abused and
the school 
> maintaining ownership
doesn't insure it. But, as we
all know, it is 
> the appearance of doing
something that is important.
I don't think 
> the schools believe blind
people will abuse a dog more
than the 
> general population. I think
NAGDU needs to work on
changing the minds 
> of the general assembly so
NAGDU has some work over the
next year.
>
> I did vote against the
resolution because it isn't a
big issue to me 
> and won't determine where I
go for a dog. I hope all of us
will work 
> with our schools directly to
change the ownership policy of
our 
> school.  Leader Dog had a
policy of maintaining
ownership for 2 years 
> and then we had to apply for
ownership.  In 2013 this
changed to 1 
> year and automatic ownership
after that time.  Hopefully,
that will 
> change back to ownership
upon completion of training in
the future. I 
> plan to work with Leader Dog
on this issue.
>
> On 7/12/15, Michael Hingson
via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>>
>>
>> I thought I should more
clarify my comments about
guide dogs as gifts.
>> Using
>> dictionary definitions
guide dogs are gifts on
several levels. Of 
>> course donors give money to
guide dog schools to provide
dogs, or at 
>> least they do in part.
Guide dog schools attract many
donors simply 
>> with the photos of "those
wonderful and cuddly puppies"
that they 
>> prominently display on
their web sites and in their
mailings.
>>
>>
>>
>> Puppy raisers' gifts are of
their time, talents, and
skills to raise 
>> puppies and turn them into
future guide dogs. There is no
doubt that 
>> they give and give well.
>>
>>
>>
>> Staff while paid give a
tremendous amount of their
time and skills as 
>> well.
>> They also give their wisdom
to students.
>>
>>
>>
>> Students also give and
receive. Of course we receive
the trained 
>> guide dogs.
>> We give of our knowledge,
wisdom, and expertise on
blindness. Some 
>> schools appreciate our
gifts while others do not
demonstrate as much 
>> appreciation for the gifts
of their students.
>>
>>
>>
>> My concern is that we take
the gift concept too far nor
in the wrong way.
>> While I appreciate all the
gifts that go into the making
and 
>> providing of
>>
>> a
>> guide dog I do not believe
it is necessary to feel so
grateful to GDB 
>> that I should sacrifice my
basic philosophy and
principles. Former 
>> president Jimmy Carter once
said that "we must adjust to
changing 
>> times while holding to
unchanging principles". This
is as true for 
>> guide dog schools as it is
for anyone else. The basic
tenants of a 
>> guide dog school include
raising and training the best
guide dogs 
>> possible. They also include
providing those same guide
dogs to 
>> qualified users who will
treat the dogs well and use
them to the best 
>> of their abilities.
>>
>>
>>
>> The very fact that we are
having this discussion on our
NAGDU list 
>> now shows how times are a
changing, as it were. More and
more 
>> consumers are realizing
that there is a basic
disconnect between how 
>> most guide dog schools
operate and the basic
philosophy of blind 
>> people. When I hear from
someone employed by a guide
dog school who 
>> tells me that the school
cannot give ownership of its
dogs to 
>> students or that there
needs to be a waiting period
simply because 
>> the school has a
responsibility to its donors
then I can only believe 
>> that the school has not
done a good job of educating
its donors or it 
>> has a basic distrust of the
abilities and commitments of
its 
>> graduates.
>>
>>
>>
>> When I hear from school
staff that not providing
immediate 
>> unconditional ownership to
graduates is necessary in
order to give 
>> all parties time to insure
that the match works I again
have been 
>> forced to conclude that
there really is a lack of
confidence or a 
>> distrust on the part of the
staff.
>> Even
>> if the match does not work
out during the first year or
two of the 
>> life of the user/guide dog
team the school could have a
mechanism 
>> whereby the student can
return the dog to the school
for retraining 
>> should that be the
appropriate way to go. The
real way to accomplish 
>> the return of a dog to the
school should involve a
defined process 
>> during which the school and
student work together to
determine 
>> whether or not the team
match really didn't work out.
The crux of 
>> this process should be the
working relationship between
the school 
>> and student to address the
issue.
>>
>>
>>
>> When I hear from consumers
that their school came and
took away their
>> guide
>> dog without any notice or
without giving reason for the
repossession I
>> cringe. No matter how valid
the concern of the guide dog
school there
>> must
>> be a process the school
should follow to address the
issue and that
>> process
>> needs to include full
disclosure and discussion with
the consumer. Once
>> schools graduate guide dog
teams they should not be
permitted to have
>> power
>> over the consumers they
serve. If a school believes
there is a problem it
>> cannot be permitted to act
unilaterally, but it must
adhere to policies
>> and
>> procedures that protect the
rights of the consumers they
are supposed to
>> serve.
>>
>>
>>
>> Most schools do not have a
true "due process", or
whatever you wish to
>> call
>> it, through which all
parties work fully together to
address issues.
>> There
>> is no excuse for this. If
guide dog schools really were
confident in
>> their
>> consumer relationship
choices then they should
provide unconditional
>> ownership and take all
steps to treat their graduates
as intelligent and
>> mature individuals. In
fact, today I have heard of
several situations
>> where
>> guide dog teams have
graduated which should not
have ever been allowed to
>> go
>> home. The burden should
always be on the schools to
produce the best
>> teams,
>> teams that will work unless
something unexpected or
unanticipated happens
>> to
>> damage the working
relationship. An advantage of
providing unconditional
>> ownership would, I think,
be that schools will really do
their best to
>> not
>> fill beds but graduate the
best teams possible.
>>
>>
>>
>> I used earlier in another
email thread a comparison
between state
>> provided
>> equipment and the process
of providing guide dogs. I
believe even after
>> seeing several responses on
the NAGDU list that this
example is apt. Even
>> if
>> the state can come and take
away equipment there is a
process by which
>> the
>> state may be called upon to
defend its action. The guide
dog schools do
>> not
>> generally provide such a
mechanism. Private or not
guide dog schools
>> should
>> not be permitted to operate
with impunity. USC and Notre
Dame as private
>> colleges have to follow
many of the same rules as
UCLA, a state funded
>> institution. Guide dog
schools also should evolve and
follow rules that
>> protect consumers and help
educate their donors about how
and why they
>> should operate in such a
manner should the issue come
up. I suspect that
>> in
>> reality most donors might
negatively react if they truly
discovered the
>> poor
>> attitudes that many guide
dog schools display toward the
consumers they
>> "serve".
>>
>>
>>
>> It is time for guide dog
schools to recognize the
validity of the
>> philosophy
>> of blind people that we
should be valued as highly as
the rest of the
>> population. It is no longer
reasonable for guide dog
schools to operate
>> under the assumption that
we cannot take full
responsibility for our
>> lives
>> and that these same schools
must "protect" their
investment. If guide dog
>> schools are producing less
than desired teams and if some
higher than
>> expected percentage of
guide dogs are being returned
or taken back by the
>> schools then these schools
should not put the burden on
the users, but
>> rather the burden should go
to the schools that should
reevaluate their
>> training and admissions
procedures.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Michael Hingson
>>
>>
>>
>> The Michael Hingson Group,
INC.
>>
>> "Speaking with Vision"
>>
>> Michael Hingson, President
>>
>> (415) 827-4084
>>
>> info at michaelhingson.com
>>
>> Please help us empower
blind people and their
families with your support
>> at
>>
www.gofundme.com/michaelhingso
n
>>
>> To order Michael Hingson's
new book, Running With
Roselle, and check on
>> Michael Hingson's speaking
availability for your next
event please visit:
>>
>> www.michaelhingson.com
>>
>>
>>
>> To purchase your own
portrait of Roselle painted by
the world's foremost
>> animal artist, Ron Burns,
please visit
<http://www.ronburns.com/rosel
le>
>>
http://www.ronburns.com/rosell
e
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
> --
> Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
> Teacher of students who are
blind or visually impaired
> (513) 607-6053
>
>
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-- 
Julie McGinnity
National Federation of the
Blind of Missouri second vice
president,
National Federation of the
Blind performing arts division
secretary,
Missouri Association of Guide
dog Users President
graduate, Guiding Eyes for the
Blind 2008, 2014
"For we walk by faith, not by
sight"
2 Cor. 7

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