[nagdu] A Little History on leader's Change of Policy
margo and isis
margo.downey at roadrunner.com
Mon Jul 13 21:40:39 UTC 2015
I agree with you but unfortunately money talks. It should be the Leader Dog graduates who have a say, though.
There are programs that give ownership and their donors still donate; their puppy raqisers still raise puppies.
Margo and Isis
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marion Gwizdala via nagdu
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2015 5:20 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Cc: Marion Gwizdala
Subject: [nagdu] A Little History on leader's Change of Policy
Dear all,
When Leader changed its policy from ownership upon completion of training to a two-year probationary period, they did so just months before the annual convention and meetings of the National Association of Guide dog Users. I don't remember the year; however, what I do remember is that they said absolutely nothing about it during their report, leading me to believe they didn't want us to know. When I found out about the change of policy, I asked Rod Haneline about it and he asserted it was due to the incident in which Craig Miller kicked his Leader dog, Inky, to death. As a parenthetical note, even if Leader had such a policy when Mr. Miller received his dog, it likely would not have changed anything. Mr. Miller, by all accounts, was a well-respected, stable individual. In fact, he ran for mayor of his city. Furthermore, even with such a policy in place, Mr. Miller would have likely owned Inky, as the incident occurred more than two years after he received his dog.
It is very curious that Leader changed its story shortly thereafter, asserting to the NAGDU membership that the probationary period was due to an epidemic of obesity in guide dogs. Now Leader has a one-year probationary period and states for its reason that this is what the donors and puppy-raisers want. I am of the opinion that donors and puppy-raisers should not direct the policies of guide dog training programs, as they have no expertise in this area.
Fraternally yours,
Marion Gwizdala
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Hingson via nagdu
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2015 3:38 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Cc: Michael Hingson; 'Tina Thomas'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am disappointed
Tina,
I hear you. However, there will be those people who simply go through the system, get a guide, work for a time without difficulty and then for some reason snap. No one can prevent that. What Leader did, however because of that one case is simply wrong. It still comes down to the fact that Leader appears not to trust ALL its consumers because of one person.
Now, as you will recall Leader's excuse was that there were too many overweight dogs, not the case you mentioned. Again, their changing their policy is wrong. Might the overweight problem be that they did not do enough to teach students the signs of an overweight dog? Might it be that Leader did not do enough to teach students the appropriate concepts of diet? I do not know, but changing the ownership policy tells me that there is a lack of trust and confidence in students instead of doing a reevaluation of teachings provided by the school.
Let me be clear that I am mentioning Leader here because you did. The same can be said of many schools. I hope that all schools read this thread and think long and hard about our comments. The tide is changing and unconditional ownership will, I believe, occur at some point. It is up to us as consumers to grow and insist on equal treatment.
Regards,
Michael Hingson
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tina Thomas via nagdu
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2015 11:40 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Cc: Tina Thomas
Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am disappointed
Hello Mike- I agree with you to a certain extent. However, People have been able to put on an act of stability when in all actuality they weren't stable at all. In the case of Leader dogs, they accepted a man who probably said and did all of the right things, but in the end he got very drunk and disoriented one night and took it out on his dog. The man kicked his dog to death! Now there is no excuse for that type of behavior. I do not condone that type of behavior. So as a result, Leader amended its ownership policy to conditional ownership for 2 years. Now Leader has a 1 year ownership policy. Mental illness has become very prevalent in our society as of late. I remember being in class getting Karli and we had a man in our class, who obviously had some issues. Our class supervisor as well as his instructor saw this behavior, and both of them spoke to the gentleman on several occasions, but in the end the gentleman was sent home with out a dog. Koodles to the Seeing Eye staff for recognizing those behaviors. There's no doubt in my mind, that SE did the right thing in that situation. They saved a dog from probably being abused and ultimately that dog's life. When I had my exit interview, I did express my concern concerning folks with mental illness. I did recommend an in-service for the staff, so that both the handler and dog would be safe. I don't want any school to have to go through what Leader went through.
JMTS.
Tina
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Hingson via nagdu
Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2015 10:42 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Cc: Michael Hingson
Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am disappointed
Mike,
The question is why do schools not trust their consumers? The schools say they do not arbitrarily repossess dogs. They also say that they rarely ever repossess a dog. If true then why does the care of the dog continue to come up? Some on this list and the schools cannot have it both ways.
There is more than a home interview involved in passing ownership over to a student/consumer. The instructors have all the time blind people are in class to evaluate what they can expect from a graduate.
It still comes down to trust. Either school staff trust consumers or they do not.
Regards,
Michael Hingson
-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael Forzano via nagdu
Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2015 10:26 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Michael Forzano
Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am disappointed
Hi,
My only concern with the resolution was for the well-being of the dogs. However, after reading this thread, I'm willing to give it consideration. It seems that the argument is that better screening processes would prevent dogs from being given to people who shouldn't have them. I talked with one of the instructors from my school who felt that it is pretty easy for a person to put on a good show for a 2-hour home interview. In training, everything is supervised; you are told when to feed, park and groom your dog, when to work your dog, etc. so there is likely little opportunity to mistreat your dog unless you want to be sent home without them. So what kinds of better screening processes would prevent dogs from being given to handlers who would be likely to mistreat them?
I'm not against having high expectations for blind people, but this mistreatment of dogs seems to be a real issue (see also the thread on overweight dogs at convention). The schools breed, care for, and fund (through donations) the training of these dogs, so it only makes sense that they want them to be placed in good homes and utilized to their full potential.
Mike
On 7/11/15, larry d keeler via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Cindy, write me offlist please! I may have friends you may have met.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy ray
> via nagdu
> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 8:58 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Cindy ray
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am disappointed
>
> Maybe the restaurant is a bad analogy. The dogs are gifts. They are
> given on behalf of the donors. Your use of other gifts is not
> monitored, so why should this gift be?
> Also, there are always bad apples, but why should all be penalized? We
> need to trust ourselves more than that, too.
>
>
> Cindy Lou Ray
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Jul 11, 2015, at 6:51 PM, Marsha Drenth via nagdu
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> As all topics on the list, this one will soon enough die. Everyone
>> needs to remember that we all have the right to express our opinion,
>> to agree and disagree about topics like ownership. So for those
>> people who have agreed with unconditional ownership, you have as much
>> of a right to say what you would like, as do the people who do not
>> agree. Just because you can't see the other side, doesn't mean it's not right.
>>
>> I too did not know about this resolution before getting to
>> convention, it would have been nice to discuss this before hand.
>> I would also like to say, this is my opinion and only my opinion, I
>> think that even within the nfb, there is a hierarchy of some people and others.
>> I don't know why this is, but I think the two persons that spoke
>> against the resolution at convention, are not a part of nagdu and a
>> part of that higher elite. That is the way I see it at least.
>>
>> Marsha drenth
>> email: marsha.drenth at gmail.com
>> Sent with my IPhone
>> Please note that this email communication has been sent using my iPhone.
>> As such, I may have used dictation and had made attempts to mitigate
>> errors. Please do not be hesitant to ask for clarification as necessary.
>>
>>> On Jul 11, 2015, at 7:09 PM, Howard J. Levine via nagdu
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> You make no sence when you go to Restaurant you pay your food they
>>> don't give it you for free, and by way guide dog living thing. This
>>> subject is getting old.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of larry d
>>> keeler via nagdu
>>> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 6:49 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Cc: larry d keeler
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am
>>> disappointed
>>>
>>> Well, like Burger King or McDonalds or Wendy's, the burgers are
>>> different but you own them after going there!
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of margo and
>>> isis via nagdu
>>> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 6:33 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Cc: margo and isis
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am
>>> disappointed
>>>
>>> Oh, I hope the conditional ownership programs decrease or change to
>>> unconditional ownership. There is no valid reason, in my opinion,
>>> for schools not to allow unconditional ownership. The Seeig Eye has
>>> done that since its inception and other schools have tried it and
>>> made it work.
>>>
>>> Margo and Isis
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tina
>>> Thomas via nagdu
>>> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 6:10 PM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Cc: Tina Thomas
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am
>>> disappointed
>>>
>>> Hello Everyone- I think it is important to remember that we as guide
>>> dog users have a choice of what training program we would like to
>>> attend. I don't want a one size fits all training program. Its like going to Burger
>>> King and excepting to get a Big Mac. It is my belief that we as guide
>>> dog users need to educate each other as well as people looking to
>>> get a dog on the different policies and practices of all of the
>>> training programs so that we can make an informed choice of which
>>> program fits our needs. Now if unconditional ownership is a deciding
>>> factor in one obtaining a dog, then apply to a program that grants
>>> it and the programs that have a conditional ownership policy will
>>> start to decrease in their numbers. As of the here and now, those
>>> programs who have conditional ownership policies don't have an
>>> incentive to change because of their numbers.
>>> Jmts.
>>> Tina
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Debby
>>> Phillips via nagdu
>>> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 10:00 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Cc: Debby Phillips
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am
>>> disappointed
>>>
>>> It is doubtful to me whether people will really change schools
>>> because of ownership. I think there are lots of folks who aren't
>>> users of guide dogs within MFB who do not understand the issues.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On Jul 10, 2015, at 10:59 AM, larry d keeler via nagdu
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Well, until something happens to convince NFB to get on board, it
>>>> will certainly be wise to read your choice of schools contract. It
>>>> could make a difference if people start going to schools where
>>>> ownership is offered and stop going to schools who's contracts
>>>> don't offer it! Consumer choice!
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie J.
>>>> via nagdu
>>>> Sent: Friday, July 10, 2015 10:41 AM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Cc: Julie J.
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am
>>>> disappointed
>>>>
>>>> Shannon,
>>>>
>>>> The resolution itself changes nothing at the guide dog schools.
>>>> The resolutions are used as guiding principles for the
>>>> organization. A positive vote means that the organization will/can
>>>> actively pursue that goal. a negative vote means little because
>>>> the goal can still be pursued, just not with the force of the entire organization behind it.
>>>> Once a resolution is passed, the decentors are supposed to keep
>>>> their dissenting opinions to themselves and support the vote.
>>>> However a resolution that didn't pass means that the concept is
>>>> still up for debate or discussion. A resolution that doesn't pass
>>>> isn't considered to be a policy or decision. For example the
>>>> resolution we are discussing if passed would mean that the NFB
>>>> would actively work with the guide dog schools to provide
>>>> ownership. since it didn't pass it means nothing. It doesn't mean
>>>> that the NFB supports non ownership. It means the issue is still
>>>> open and undecided. If folks wanted the NFB's position and support
>>>> to go to the idea of the schools retaining ownership, then a
>>>> resolution to that effect would have to be introduced and passed.
>>>> Perhaps the resolutions could be viewed as a priority list of
>>>> things the organization wants to accomplish. At least this is the way I have always understood resolutions.
>>>>
>>>> Julie
>>>> Courage to Dare: A Blind Woman's Quest to Train her Own Guide Dog
>>>> is now available! Get the book here:
>>>> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00QXZSMOC
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Shannon Dyer via nagdu
>>>> Sent: Friday, July 10, 2015 9:26 AM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Cc: Shannon Dyer
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am
>>>> disappointed
>>>>
>>>> Hi, all.
>>>>
>>>> I mean no disrespect here. I’m just seeking to understand the
>>>> resolution better.
>>>>
>>>> So, if it had passed, how would this have affected the schools? For
>>>> example, if I chose to go to a school that did not grant immediate
>>>> ownership, how would this resolution have helped me? My
>>>> understanding is that the guide dog schools are independent
>>>> entities. How does this resolution get them to change their policies?
>>>>
>>>> Curiously,
>>>> Shannon and the Acelet
>>>>> On Jul 9, 2015, at 9:59 PM, Becky Sabo via nagdu
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hey Tina, I agree it shouldn't not gone to the rollcall upstate.
>>>>> At least it did not go through. Becky Sabo
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 9, 2015, at 9:44 PM, Tina Thomas via nagdu
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org <mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Well to be truthfully honest it never should've went to a rollcall
>>>>> states it was obvious that the nose had it but hey somebody just
>>>>> couldn't take the loss so they try to sneak it through by asking
>>>>> for a rollcall but thank God in the end democracy and justice
>>>>> prevailed
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jul 9, 2015, at 5:44 PM, Julie J. via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So this went to a counted vote by the state delegates? Where can
>>>>>> I go to see which state voted which way?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And was this announced on this list? I honestly had no idea this
>>>>>> resolution was being presented until it was way too late to talk
>>>>>> to the people in my state about it. Hopefully they know my
>>>>>> thoughts on the subject, but I'm not there and it bothers me that
>>>>>> I didn't know to be able to explain my views beforehand.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>
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