[nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am disappointed

Passle Helminski passle at roadrunner.com
Mon Jul 13 23:55:12 UTC 2015


It is not in the contract.
Passle
On Jul 13, 2015, at 9:42 AM, larry d keeler via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:

> Research is always good! I do know that if I would ever abuse Holly, which of course I wouldn't Pilot could take her. That is I believe in the contract. I have heard of a couple of instances where dogs were taken back by Pilot. But, they were instances of abuse, neglect or in at least 2 cases dogs were allowed by the handlers to bite. 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Buddy Brannan via nagdu
> Sent: Monday, July 13, 2015 8:31 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Buddy Brannan
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am disappointed
> 
> I'd really love to look at the data here. Do schools like the Seeing Eye, GDA, GDF, Freedom, and Pilot, which offer full ownership upon graduation, have a higher incidence of dog abuse, neglect, or substandard care than do schools who retain partial ownership, have dogs on a probationary ownership period, or retain full ownership throughout the dog's life? Particularly instructive would be statistics from Leader, who granted full ownership for years, if not decades, then changed its policy, I note, twice within about five years. Of course, such statistics from Seeing Eye, who has had this policy longer than anyone else, would also be instructive. Perhaps seeing these would put to rest the "it's for the dogs" argument. 
> 
> --
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> Phone: 814-860-3194 
> Mobile: 814-431-0962
> Email: buddy at brannan.name
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jul 13, 2015, at 8:07 AM, Marianne Denning via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Michael, I agree with you about the well-being of the dogs.  I don't
>> think there is any way to screen out all people who would abuse dogs.
>> Some people who get a dog have never had a dog in the home so have no
>> idea about the responsibility required to have a guide dog.
>> 
>> I am paying attention to all that is said and I can see both sides
>> now.  Does anyone have suggestions on how schools could help insure
>> the safety of the dogs they train?
>> 
>> This is just one suggestion, but what about a probationary period for
>> a first time trainee?  That is just a suggestion and I hope there will
>> be others.
>> 
>> On 7/13/15, Michael Forzano via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> My only concern with the resolution was for the well-being of the
>>> dogs. However, after reading this thread, I'm willing to give it
>>> consideration. It seems that the argument is that better screening
>>> processes would prevent dogs from being given to people who shouldn't
>>> have them. I talked with one of the instructors from my school who
>>> felt that it is pretty easy for a person to put on a good show for a
>>> 2-hour home interview. In training, everything is supervised; you are
>>> told when to feed, park and groom your dog, when to work your dog,
>>> etc. so there is likely little opportunity to mistreat your dog unless
>>> you want to be sent home without them. So what kinds of better
>>> screening processes would prevent dogs from being given to handlers
>>> who would be likely to mistreat them?
>>> 
>>> I'm not against having high expectations for blind people, but this
>>> mistreatment of dogs seems to be a real issue (see also the thread on
>>> overweight dogs at convention). The schools breed, care for, and fund
>>> (through donations) the training of these dogs, so it only makes sense
>>> that they want them to be placed in good homes and utilized to their
>>> full potential.
>>> 
>>> Mike
>>> 
>>> On 7/11/15, larry d keeler via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> Cindy, write me offlist please! I may have friends you may have met.
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy ray via
>>>> nagdu
>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 8:58 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Cc: Cindy ray
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am disappointed
>>>> 
>>>> Maybe the restaurant is a bad analogy. The dogs are gifts. They are given
>>>> on
>>>> behalf of the donors. Your use of other gifts is not monitored, so why
>>>> should this gift be?
>>>> Also, there are always bad apples, but why should all be penalized? We
>>>> need
>>>> to trust ourselves more than that, too.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Cindy Lou Ray
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> 
>>>>> On Jul 11, 2015, at 6:51 PM, Marsha Drenth via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> As all topics on the list, this one will soon enough die. Everyone needs
>>>>> to remember that we all have the right to express our opinion, to agree
>>>>> and disagree about topics like ownership. So for those people who have
>>>>> agreed with unconditional ownership, you have as much of a right to say
>>>>> what you would like, as do the people who do not agree. Just because you
>>>>> can't see the other side, doesn't mean it's not right.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I too did not know about this resolution before getting to convention, it
>>>>> would have been nice to discuss this before hand.
>>>>> I would also like to say, this is my opinion and only my opinion, I think
>>>>> that even within the nfb, there is a hierarchy of some people and others.
>>>>> I don't know why this is, but I think the two persons that spoke against
>>>>> the resolution at convention, are not a part of nagdu and a part of that
>>>>> higher elite. That is the way I see it at least.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Marsha drenth
>>>>> email: marsha.drenth at gmail.com
>>>>> Sent with my IPhone
>>>>> Please note that this email communication has been sent using my iPhone.
>>>>> As such, I may have used dictation and had made attempts to mitigate
>>>>> errors. Please do not be hesitant to ask for clarification as necessary.
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jul 11, 2015, at 7:09 PM, Howard J. Levine via nagdu
>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> You make no sence when you go to Restaurant you pay your food they don't
>>>>>> give it you for free, and by way guide dog living thing. This subject is
>>>>>> getting old.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of larry d
>>>>>> keeler via nagdu
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 6:49 PM
>>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>>> Cc: larry d keeler
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am disappointed
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Well, like Burger King or McDonalds or Wendy's, the burgers are
>>>>>> different
>>>>>> but you own them after going there!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of margo and
>>>>>> isis via nagdu
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 6:33 PM
>>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>>> Cc: margo and isis
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am disappointed
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Oh, I hope the conditional ownership programs decrease or change to
>>>>>> unconditional ownership.  There is no valid reason, in my opinion, for
>>>>>> schools not to allow unconditional ownership.  The Seeig Eye has done
>>>>>> that since its inception and other schools have tried it and made it
>>>>>> work.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Margo and Isis
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tina
>>>>>> Thomas via nagdu
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 6:10 PM
>>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>>> Cc: Tina Thomas
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am disappointed
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hello Everyone- I think it is important to remember that we as guide dog
>>>>>> users have a choice of what training program we would like to attend. I
>>>>>> don't want a one size fits all training program. Its like going to
>>>>>> Burger
>>>>>> King and excepting   to get a Big Mac. It is my belief that we as guide
>>>>>> dog users need to educate each other as well as people looking to get a
>>>>>> dog  on the different policies and practices of all of the training
>>>>>> programs  so  that we can make an informed choice of which program fits
>>>>>> our needs. Now if unconditional ownership is a deciding factor in one
>>>>>> obtaining a dog, then apply to a program that grants it and the programs
>>>>>> that have a conditional ownership policy will start to decrease in their
>>>>>> numbers. As of the here and now, those programs who have conditional
>>>>>> ownership policies don't have an incentive to change because of their
>>>>>> numbers.
>>>>>> Jmts.
>>>>>> Tina
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Debby
>>>>>> Phillips via nagdu
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 10:00 AM
>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>> Cc: Debby Phillips
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am disappointed
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It is doubtful to me whether people will really change schools because
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> ownership. I think there are lots of folks who aren't users of guide
>>>>>> dogs
>>>>>> within MFB who do not understand the issues.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Jul 10, 2015, at 10:59 AM, larry d keeler via nagdu
>>>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Well, until something happens to convince NFB to get on board, it will
>>>>>>> certainly be wise to read your choice of schools contract. It could
>>>>>>> make
>>>>>>> a difference if people start going to schools where ownership is
>>>>>>> offered
>>>>>>> and stop going to schools who's contracts don't offer it! Consumer
>>>>>>> choice!
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie J.
>>>>>>> via nagdu
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 10, 2015 10:41 AM
>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>>> Cc: Julie J.
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am
>>>>>>> disappointed
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Shannon,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The resolution itself changes nothing at the guide dog schools.  The
>>>>>>> resolutions are used as guiding principles for the organization.  A
>>>>>>> positive vote means that the organization will/can actively pursue that
>>>>>>> goal.  a negative vote means little because the goal can still be
>>>>>>> pursued, just not with the force of the entire organization behind it.
>>>>>>> Once a resolution is passed, the decentors are supposed to keep their
>>>>>>> dissenting opinions to themselves and support the vote.  However a
>>>>>>> resolution that didn't pass means that the concept is still up for
>>>>>>> debate or discussion.  A resolution that doesn't pass isn't considered
>>>>>>> to be a policy or decision.  For example the resolution we are
>>>>>>> discussing if passed would mean that the NFB would actively work with
>>>>>>> the guide dog schools to provide ownership.  since it didn't pass it
>>>>>>> means nothing.  It doesn't mean that the NFB supports non ownership.
>>>>>>> It
>>>>>>> means the issue is still open and undecided. If folks wanted the NFB's
>>>>>>> position and support to go to the idea of the schools retaining
>>>>>>> ownership, then a resolution to that effect would have to be introduced
>>>>>>> and passed. Perhaps the resolutions could be viewed as a priority list
>>>>>>> of things the organization wants to accomplish.  At least this is the
>>>>>>> way I have always understood resolutions.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>> Courage to Dare: A Blind Woman's Quest to Train her Own Guide Dog is
>>>>>>> now
>>>>>>> available! Get the book here:
>>>>>>> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00QXZSMOC
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Shannon Dyer via nagdu
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 10, 2015 9:26 AM
>>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>>> Cc: Shannon Dyer
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] The membership has spoken, and I am
>>>>>>> disappointed
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hi, all.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I mean no disrespect here. I’m just seeking to understand the
>>>>>>> resolution
>>>>>>> better.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> So, if it had passed, how would this have affected the schools? For
>>>>>>> example, if I chose to go to a school that did not grant immediate
>>>>>>> ownership, how would this resolution have helped me? My understanding
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> that the guide dog schools are independent entities. How does this
>>>>>>> resolution get them to change their policies?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Curiously,
>>>>>>> Shannon and the Acelet
>>>>>>>> On Jul 9, 2015, at 9:59 PM, Becky Sabo via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Hey Tina, I agree it shouldn't not gone to the rollcall upstate. At
>>>>>>>> least it did not go through. Becky Sabo
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Jul 9, 2015, at 9:44 PM, Tina Thomas via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> <mailto:nagdu at nfbnet.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Well to be truthfully honest it never should've went to a rollcall
>>>>>>>> states it was obvious that the nose had it but hey somebody just
>>>>>>>> couldn't take the loss so they try to sneak it through by asking
>>>>>>>> for a rollcall but thank God in the end democracy and justice
>>>>>>>> prevailed
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Jul 9, 2015, at 5:44 PM, Julie J. via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> So this went to a counted vote by the state delegates?  Where can
>>>>>>>>> I go to see which state voted which way?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> And was this announced on this list?  I honestly had no idea this
>>>>>>>>> resolution was being presented until it was way too late to talk
>>>>>>>>> to the people in my state about it.  Hopefully they know my
>>>>>>>>> thoughts on the subject, but I'm not there and it bothers me that
>>>>>>>>> I didn't know to be able to explain my views beforehand.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Julie
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>> gm
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> il.com
>>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>> ---
>>>>>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> 
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>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
>> Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
>> (513) 607-6053
>> 
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