[nagdu] expectations of the blind & guide dog programs'admission standards

Howard J. Levine WB2HWW at earthlink.net
Wed Jul 15 01:06:31 UTC 2015


Hi from Howard and Rhett, I got my guide dog from GEB in FEB 2012 and thay where the same and it was pain. I understand it has to do with insurance. I broke the rules like takeing my dog out to break with some watching and thay had crazy rule that they did not want you to take bath or clean up before you to your dog out and give him his food in the morning. After week I just got just little earler and took care of my self. I just don't go out until I look ok not good look like you roled out of bed.

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Danielle Sykora via nagdu
Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2015 3:20 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Danielle Sykora
Subject: [nagdu] expectations of the blind & guide dog programs'admission standards

It's interesting to hear different people's experiences at different schools. My Juno walk was done on the school's campus so there wasn't any traffic when crossing the street. As Jenine explained, I had to submit a video demonstrating my ability to cross a variety of streets without assistance as part of GDF's application process. My instructor made some of the street crossing decisions in the first few days as well as while in Queens. I don't have a problem crossing small to average size streets, but I had virtually no experience with city traffic at that point so the help was appreciated.

Volunteers served our meals. It wasn't something I really thought about at the time, but I can see why people would have a problem with this. We were able to enter and exit the dining hall as we pleased.
However, we were not supposed to relieve our dogs without an instructor present, something I didn't understand then or now. During the first few days when we didn't know our particular dogs' relieving habits maybe, but not for the entire class.

I can see both sides of the argument for giving students the benefit of the doubt. On the one hand, I'm not sure I think someone who can only walk one route or can not acknowledge and correct when they have veered off a relatively straight line of travel should have a dog. On the other, I really appreciated that GDF didn't automatically give me the impression that I was wasting my time applying for a dog as a high school student living in a small town and attending a relatively small high school. I'm not saying all training programs have this attitude but the other schools I contacted were not as open to the idea, even though they had a lower age limit of 16. I also felt as if some programs were more open to providing information on such topics as ownership and training methods as others.

Danielle, Thai, and Bonnie (GDF puppy in training

On 7/14/15, Jenine Stanley via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Dan,
>
> I think you say some very important things here.
>
> Blindness isn’t a one-size fits all condition. It can be caused by 
> genetic conditions, stroke, trauma, viral infections or drug reactions 
> and probably many more things.
>
> Yes, there is a point at which someone just is not capable of working 
> with a dog for mobility. That’s another agonizing decision that has to 
> be made sometimes, either by the school or the person.
>
> Sometimes people are fine in their home areas with familiar routes but 
> simply, due to things like traumatic brain injury, stroke or genetic 
> condition, cannot orient outside of that environment.
>
> My husband is a brilliant man. He builds all of our computers in our 
> house, and we have a number of them. He had a stroke, thankfully not 
> too severe, about 10 years ago and now learning new things is very 
> difficult for him in terms of mechanics. He simply cannot manipulate 
> an iPhone for example. He also can’t understand the mechanics of a 
> gentle leader and how to put it on the dog. No matter how I or others 
> explain it, he just doesn’t understand it. He can keep track of 
> complex finances, do all kinds of home projects and such but some 
> things he will never be able to do. He can work a dog and has good 
> orientation skills despite hearing loss and loss of central vision. He 
> also has balance issues left over from the stroke. He’s a tough student in guide dog class because he gets bored easily.
>
> What to do?
>
> Then there are other people who really do have difficulty with 
> orientation and no matter what you do or how hard they try, they are 
> never going to get it. This used to occur a lot with people who were 
> blind as a result of premature birth and over exposure to oxygen.
>
> Finally, there’s a condition called Audio Processing Disorder, which 
> my husband has. I’m sure some of you out there have this as well and 
> maybe don’t even realize it. This disorder manifests itself in the 
> person losing functions like hearing, vision, or having an altered 
> sense of touch. Loud spaces like cafeterias set my husband off. TSA 
> lines in airport are another place where he can shut down. He 
> describes it as completely losing hearing and sometimes, if really stressed, his vision will go black.
>
> Another person with this condition said sometimes she is so sensitive 
> to touch that even petting her dog feels like rubbing chalk on her 
> hands. She senses that her arms are in places they aren’t.
>
> From what we know, audio processing gets triggered by something 
> usually. So, that person you see during class who just is zoned out or 
> whatever, might be dealing with something completely out of their control.
>
> We would hope that applicants and students in guide dog class have the 
> necessary skills for directing their dogs and the necessary blindness 
> skills to manage those dogs. This part is even more important in many 
> ways. I’ve seen people come to class shortly after blindness who are 
> having trouble dealing with food, their own, not their dog’s. They may 
> not know how to adapt things like doing laundry, keeping track of 
> money or functioning in different unfavorable lighting conditions. I’d 
> wager there are some on this list who had a completely different 
> experience during their school night walk than in the daytime, and not just during the actual walk.
>
> It’s so easy to judge from your own position, especially for those of 
> us with some experience, who should and should not train with a dog.
>
> At GDF we do require formal O&M training and on your application video 
> we need to see you independently cross both lighted and uncontrolled 
> intersections, judging traffic.
>
> During training we first call the streets for you but then, especially 
> if you are a city person, we take you into Queens and you have to call 
> every crossing. The one with the traffic island in the middle just makes me sweat.
> :)
>
> I struggled this time with country travel but we eventually got it.
>
> So just be kind to people on class because you don’t know what they 
> are dealing with regarding blindness. Most instructors truly want to 
> try to give people the freedom of working with a guide dog and will go 
> above and beyond to make that happen, especially if the person is willing to put in the work.
> Jenine Stanley
> jeninems at wowway.com
>
> http://www.twitter.com/jeninems
>
>> On Jul 14, 2015, at 11:13 AM, Dan Weiner via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> One thing when I was a Leader grad that I liked (as opposed to a lot 
>> of people who criticized this) is that LD really seemed to want to 
>> give everyone a chance.  One trainer explained to me that if the dog 
>> was able to get the person out even if just to the mailbox then they 
>> wanted to give the person a chance. Now I know some people stuck 
>> their noses up hearing that but I actually thought it's a good idea.
>> I know that when I have said that to some people they will say "well 
>> they just wanted to fill their classes", but couldn't you say that 
>> about any school?
>>
>>
>> When I went to Leader (three times if you include one time when I 
>> didn't go home with the dog). There were always some snotty student, 
>> usually a partially sighted one, hate to say it, who would say "Oh, 
>> this or that person shouldn't be getting a dog, they get around 
>> terribly". Actually once
>> that was me whom the person was complaining about--		--smile.
>> The trainer in a conversation which I overheard and probably wasn't 
>> supposed to have overheard, explained that they will work with people 
>> of all differen tlevels.
>>
>> Now I am a client of Guide Dogs of America. There was a fellow in the 
>> class who had had a motercycle accident and lost his sight and 
>> hearing  in one ear, Hell, I have that problem, though I didn't havve 
>> an accident--lol.
>> He, the guy I'm mentioning, really didn't understand the mechanics of 
>> crossing intersections and they very patiently worked with him on it 
>> and that spoke highly of them to me anyway. Every blind person is 
>> different and I'm afraid we don't all fit in one mold.
>> I'd rather have someone who loves their dog and just goes around the 
>> block then someone who acts like they resent or hate their dog and 
>> goes all over the place, but of course that's just me and I suppose I'm in the minority.
>>
>>
>>
>> Cordially,
>> Dan W. and the Parker Nut
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marianne 
>> Denning via nagdu
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2015 10:57 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Cc: Marianne Denning
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] expectations of the blind & guide dog 
>> programs'admission standards
>>
>> Cindy, I think every school except one does require some level of O&M 
>> skills.  I am sure it varies from school to school.  I have found 
>> that I depend on my orientation skills a lot more with my dogs than with my cane.
>> My dog may take a slight turn to guide me around an object and I need 
>> to be aware of that very slight turn and be sure I am back on course.  
>> I did meet one student who used a dog to go to the convenient store 
>> near his home and back every day.  His O&M skills were awful but he 
>> could do that route so he was receiving his second dog when I 
>> received my first dog.  It worked for him so it worked with the 
>> school.
>>
>> On 7/14/15, Cindy Ray via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> Well, I have been trying to become a pastor in the Presbyterian 
>>> Church for too long to admit, but I can't because of one exam. In 
>>> that church, there are five tests you must pass to become a teaching 
>>> elder or pastor. Although I have some good pastoral skills, these 
>>> tests are designed to keep out the people who wouldn't. I cannot get 
>>> in. There are going to be people who would not make it because of 
>>> the kind of sytandards considered even though they would have been 
>>> good. I wonder that they might need additional work. In my first 
>>> class there was someone who didn't even understand the basics of 
>>> when to tell if the light is green and much of our time was spent 
>>> with the instructor trying to teach her that. I think that a person 
>>> should have that kind of skills. Later on I know that some people 
>>> have been told to go improve their mobility skills before they can 
>>> have a dog. Then after a few months, maybe a year, they are accepted because they have done it.
>>> I am not sure your mobility skills have to be exemplary, but you 
>>> might ought to have some.
>>> Cindy
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy 
>>> Carcione via nagdu
>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2015 8:14 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> Cc: Tracy Carcione
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] expectations of the blind & guide dog programs'
>>> admission standards
>>>
>>> But Raven, you did graduate, and you did well.  I understand the 
>>> idea that people should have good travel skills before getting a 
>>> dog, but I've known enough who didn't and still have done very well 
>>> with a dog that I'm not sure it should be a hard and fast rule.  
>>> Yes, it helps a lot, but it doesn't seem to be absolutely essential. 
>>> Basic traffic-reading yes, but great orientation and walking 
>>> straight, maybe not.
>>> I think more instructors are getting degrees in O&M.  I know TSE has 
>>> a few, and so does GDB.  Leader too, I think.  I agree, it is helpful.
>>>
>>> My TSE Juno, I called the crossings.  In class, my trainer, ex-GEB, 
>>> did advise us when to cross in the beginning, a bit, on quiet 
>>> streets where we weren't sure of the traffic patterns.  "Is this a 
>>> stop sign, or a light...?"
>>>
>>> As to being served meals, I agree.  I wouldn't want to deal with 
>>> carrying food the first day or 2 with the new, very excited dog, but 
>>> after that, why not?
>>> At TSE, we come and go from the dining room as we please, though 
>>> instructors direct traffic a bit when everyone is coming in.  "Hold 
>>> up a minute; we've got a traffic jam (or Kathy is reworking a 
>>> clearance, or whatever).  The students' section is past the staff 
>>> section, so a student has to walk past staff tables to get out.  
>>> More than once I was reminded to watch Krokus's big nose, walking past those tables.
>>> Tracy
>>>
>>>> I can't speak for all schools. But I think some schools have low 
>>>> standards because they have low expectations. I have heard stories 
>>>> about students who have graduated from programs and certainly 
>>>> shouldn't have. I can't speak to them, I can only speak to my 
>>>> personal experiences with GEB. And this is in no way bashing GEB, 
>>>> the instructors, or the graduates. These are merely my observations 
>>>> and experiences.
>>>>
>>>> First, I confess I should not have received a guide dog because at 
>>>> the time I applied, I had poor mobility skills. I was never 
>>>> comfortable crossing traffic-lighted intersections, and I hoped 
>>>> that the field rep who came to do my home interview and video would 
>>>> not ask me to do any street work on busy roads. Fortunately for me, 
>>>> the person didn't. The field rep recorded me walking a route on my 
>>>> college campus, which was pretty much like walking through a 
>>>> residential neighborhood because it was a small campus.
>>>>
>>>> During guide dog training, I scared the hell out of my instructor. 
>>>> It was just once, but I was ready to cross a super busy street. For 
>>>> a few seconds nothing was coming, so I thought it was okay to go. I 
>>>> told the Golden Guy forward. He stepped off the curb, because ...
>>>> well, nothing was coming. And my instructor nearly had a heart 
>>>> attack. I played it off like I was just joking, and wanted to test 
>>>> the intelligent disobedience thing. And I ended up getting an 
>>>> in-depth lecture about the ins and outs of traffic training.
>>>> When I got home with my dog, I admitted to my O&M instructor that I 
>>>> struggled to cross busy streets by myself, and we needed to work on 
>>>> it. I mean, before the dog, it was just me. But after training, I 
>>>> wasn't just handling some inanimate object while crossing the 
>>>> street, I was using a living, breathing creature whose life and 
>>>> well-being I was responsible for. If anything horrible happened to 
>>>> him because of poor judgment on my part, I wouldn't be able to 
>>>> forgive myself. So I'm one of the people who faked it to make it.
>>>> It's great that I was responsible enough to admit my weakness and 
>>>> improve my travel skills before even daring to put my dog's life at 
>>>> risk, but at the time, I really felt I shouldn't have graduated 
>>>> with a guide dog.
>>>>
>>>> In my class, a few other people shouldn't have graduated and ended 
>>>> up leaving with dogs, or at least shouldn't have left with their 
>>>> specific dog. One guy was a previous student of Leader and had been 
>>>> sent home without a dog. So GEB takes him in and gives this guy a 
>>>> dog. This guy has horrible orientation skills. I mean, maybe he's 
>>>> one of those people who was well-oriented outside and completely 
>>>> lost indoors, but ... I didn't understand. It was a 26-day program, 
>>>> and 3 weeks in, this guy acted like he knew where absolutely 
>>>> nothing was located in the building where we waited while other 
>>>> teams were out on route. He acted like the place was rearranged 
>>>> everyday. And there was no excuse. There were 2 deaf-blind students 
>>>> there whose orientation skills were pretty flawless, and this guy ... I guess he didn't care.
>>>> Idk. He graduated with a dog, and the dog ended up going back to 
>>>> GEB and was rematched with someone else all within a year.
>>>>
>>>> This is to say that I don't think the trainers are well-versed in 
>>>> appropriate or sufficient orientation/travel skills. Their job 
>>>> entails training dogs and telling people how to work with them, I'm 
>>>> willing to bet most guide dog schools' trainers know little about 
>>>> O&M training and what level travel skills someone should have when 
>>>> they are working a guide dog. They see when a person makes a 
>>>> mistake, but don't know how to recognize when to crock it up to 
>>>> poor traveling skills.
>>>>
>>>> In addition, I think certain schools want to give people or the 
>>>> dogs the benefit of the doubt. They're under stress, so they did this.
>>>> They're in a new environment, so can you really expect them to do 
>>>> this well? You're just here to learn to work a dog, the other stuff 
>>>> will come later when you get home. No one has said these things, 
>>>> but by their actions and attitudes, they may as well have.
>>>>
>>>> Again, not knocking GEB, but some of the things they did during 
>>>> training pretty much screamed, "We got low expectations." If they 
>>>> have changed any of this, please correct me. I would be delighted 
>>>> to know that this is no longer the case.
>>>> 1. During the 2 Juno-walks, the instructors didn't require us to 
>>>> decide when to cross the street. They said: "Tell Juno forward," or 
>>>> something along those lines.
>>>> During those walks, we were not expected to judge traffic or make 
>>>> calls. Those who have done Juno walks with dogs might have had a 
>>>> different experience.
>>>> 2. The instructors served us our meals.
>>>> This was incredibly shocking to me. I've been to a training center 
>>>> for the blind twice, and I expected that at GEB, we would line up 
>>>> at a counter and someone would serve food onto our plates and we 
>>>> would have to find our way to a table while carrying our food. 
>>>> Nope. We all sat down, the instructors actually brought us our 
>>>> plates, and even poured our drinks! How old are we?
>>>> I mean, I get that it could get a bit disastrous with people not 
>>>> knowing the lay out, some people having multiple disabilities, and 
>>>> when you throw dogs in the mix, it could get complicated and 
>>>> stressful. But that's life. If the rehab training centers do it, 
>>>> the guide dog schools should, too.
>>>> 3. There was one day where I was the last person eating in the 
>>>> dining room, and a staff member who was there with me had to run 
>>>> downstairs to do something. This person told me to stay in the 
>>>> dining room until he came back. I piped up because I thought it was 
>>>> ridiculous that I couldn't just leave when I felt like it. Nope.
>>>> I never really noticed or thought about it before, but whenever a 
>>>> student got up from the table to leave the dining room and go 
>>>> downstairs, an instructor or staff member would magically appear to 
>>>> watch you go down those eleven steps because God forbid you might 
>>>> fall. For people who have balance issues, I understand. But for 
>>>> your regular blind Joe, I don't see the need for it.
>>>>
>>>> That is just some of the things I noticed during training. It's 
>>>> possible that the things I discussed simply depend on the staff 
>>>> manning a certain class. It could also happen at other guide dog 
>>>> schools, but I can only speak to the one I attended.
>>>> Maybe I'm making mountains out of molehills. But it is little 
>>>> things like this that show what the schools think we are capable of 
>>>> doing successfully. I mean, what am I supposed to think when people 
>>>> are reluctant or refuse to let me get my food and successfully 
>>>> carry it back to a table to find a seat? How should I feel when I'm 
>>>> not allowed to descend a single flight of stairs on my own. It 
>>>> makes me feel like a liability.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not trying to paint a bad picture of GEB by any means, but I'm 
>>>> not a loyal client who won't acknowledge the school's flaws. If I 
>>>> had to get a guide dog again for the first time, I'd choose GEB. 
>>>> They were able to give me what I was looking for in a guide dog 
>>>> school at the time and matched me with the perfect guide dog, and I 
>>>> appreciate the foundation they instilled in me for dog training and canine care.
>>>>
>>>> All this to make my point that guide dog schools likely have low 
>>>> expectations of their blind clients, and so they have low standards 
>>>> of who they are willing to accept and graduate. They don't know 
>>>> what it looks like or means to be an independent blind person, nor 
>>>> do they understand the ways in which they are robbing us of our independence.
>>>> And because they don't allow us to fully demonstrate the extent of 
>>>> our responsibility and independence, they exercise paternalism in 
>>>> varying degrees.
>>>> How do we as graduates change this? How do we demonstrate that we 
>>>> are not liabilities? How do we bring about a change in attitude so 
>>>> that schools treat us as independent individuals.
>>>> --
>>>> Raven
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
>> Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
>> (513) 607-6053
>>
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