[nagdu] Fw: Proposed Act Regarding Service Dogs from the stateof Maine.

Sun Mar 1 20:45:54 UTC 2015

Bridget,

I never thought you were attacking in what you said.  Also if I used the 
word, "you" in my message, I meant it in the plural as in you all or yawl as 
people say out here! It is an honest question that needs to be addressed.  I 
don't want to have my rights go away any more than anyone else does and I 
don't want people to abuse the system the way it is right now.  It is clear 
to me that something needs to be done, or it will be done for us and I fear 
that will end badly.

Regarding your thought about mentioning owner training to the 
programs...ummm...I'm trying to word this very carefully, but I still might 
mess it up.  Jenine from GDF is really a great person and has never had any 
problem with owner training. She is the exception.  Some of the program 
trainers will just ignore it, like it doesn't exist.  Some give you the cold 
shoulder, like you are beneath them.  And some will be outright hostile.

Meghan, who trained Jetta, did train a guide who then went through class at 
Guide Dogs of the Desert.  I think that went well, but the arrangement was 
not with her personally, but rather the program she volunteers for.  It was 
a rather unique arrangement.

The programs guard their training methods fairly closely.  They certainly 
are not going to tell me, an owner trainer, how to train a specific task or 
even give me a hint.   I'd compare it to asking Colonel Sanders for just one 
of the secret 17 herbs or spices. It isn't going to happen.  And of course 
the program trainers have a lot of experience and each other as a check and 
balance system of sorts, but they are no more certified than I 
am...excepting California.

An aspect of owner training that is important to me is the independent 
nature of it.  I can choose the breed, the training methods, the specific 
skills etc.  If the programs were the authority would I still be able to use 
treats in my training?  Would I still be able to work a Doberman?  Would I 
still be able to use my nylon Sport style harness?  If I went to a program 
for validation or training help or whatever, it would feel not so much like 
owner training anymore.  I don't feel like I'm explaining that very well.

I wish I had more answers.  I really do.

Julie
Courage to Dare: A Blind Woman's Quest to Train her Own Guide Dog is now 
available! Get the book here:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00QXZSMOC
Visit my new website on developing courage and living authentically:
http://www.falling-up.com
-----Original Message----- 
From: Bridget Walker
Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 1:59 PM
To: Julie J.
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: Proposed Act Regarding Service Dogs from the 
stateof Maine.

I understand your points and I was not attacking you. Julie though I do know 
my message was all over strong in questions and opinions.
I think there needs to be a combination of people assessing what a 
disability is for a person. It's true some people can get a doctor to sign 
off on anything but, will a rehab person understand an MRI of the brain that 
a neurologist could explain? I think we need both doctors and rehab to work 
together. Your idea is great. It's really hard to know for sure what a 
disability is and how it will effect someone every day. I have CP but, my 
guide dog is not a combo dog because I manage my mobility impairment with 
medication. This came from a combination of doctors. Sometimes you have to 
see more then one specialist to really specify the specifics of your 
disability.
I'm not taking a stab toward you but, I am going to point out that my dog 
received several evaluations coming from a program. The point is not that he 
is better trained. The point is there were people evaluating my dog who 
train guide dogs every day all day. You know, why don't you work with one of 
the training programs? I mean this really. If you have ideas about training 
talk to them about them.
About that bit on the store thing. I can't agree more with you. I wish 
people could see they need to change aspects to their life to manage. It's 
like me saying "I need my professor to excuse me from class every Day at 
12:00 because the light from the window gives me a headache. When really all 
I need to do is go sit on the other side of the room. Of course I have never 
and will never do such a thing.
I never saw my disability as a good thing but, something that I just live 
with. It doesn't really make to much of a difference to me. I do not know 
why the idea of being disabled is a peeling to so many people these days.
Bridget

Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 1, 27 Heisei, at 2:33 PM, Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>
> No one evaluates my dog, but me, at least with the last ones.  Jetta was 
> trained by someone else, so we have her opinion and mine.
>
> I do a lot of work at blindness events, with my state agency, attend NFB 
> state conventions, sometimes the ACB state convention and I have a very 
> good friend who is a certified O&M teacher.   There have been a lot of 
> people, people who know about how guide dogs work and what they do, see me 
> work my dogs.   I am quite often the one they go to with guide dog 
> questions.
>
> Regarding the bigger picture...I have known for some time, or have felt, 
> that we are getting to a place where some sort of regulation is eminent. 
> There are too many people, making too many claims of questionable facts 
> and way too many ill behaved dogs. I don't think it is the outright fakers 
> that are the problem.  I think those are actually a very small number and 
> are pretty obvious.  What I think is the real problem is folks who don't 
> understand what a disability is and claim to have one, when what they 
> really have is poor self management, poor decision making skills and an 
> inflated sense of what the word impairment means.  Please don't go off on 
> me about how there are lots of people with legitimate service dogs in this 
> category. I am in no way saying that psychiatric conditions cannot be 
> disabilities, absolutely they can.  What I see a lot of is things like, 
> "My Pooky makes grocery shopping more pleasant and less stressful."   To 
> me, that doesn't sound like a disability.  It sounds normal.  Seriously I 
> just got home from the grocery store and less stress is a wonderful thing, 
> but if that were my disability, I'd make it a point to go on Wednesday at 
> 10 p.m. when I'd be the only person in the store.
>
> It's the people with only the mildest of unpleasant life circumstances 
> that choose to haul their half trained dog into public because of their 
> perception that the dog helps them that is the real problem. These people 
> really believe they have a disability and they really believe their dog is 
> trained.  That is their reality and there is no education that will ever 
> change that perception.
>
> As I see it there are only really two ways to go to address this whole 
> issue.
> 1. We can have the government come up with some sort of elaborate system 
> of determining disability.  Medical doctors are not in a position to do 
> this. They are good at diagnosing medical conditions, but disability is 
> how that condition affects you on a daily basis.  A doctor can diagnose 
> that a person has arthritis, but as we all know most people who have 
> arthritis are not disabled.  There are some who could be considered 
> disabled because of arthritis though.  Doctors are not trained in this 
> area.  Occupational therapists or rehabilitation counselors are in a 
> better position to make this determination.  The social security 
> determination is a close, but not perfect determination, because it only 
> addresses disability as it relates to paid employment.  There are disabled 
> people who do not qualify for social security.
>
> 2. We can regulate the dogs.  This one has so many problems.  I'm not even 
> sure where to begin.  This seems to be the route everyone wants to take 
> though.  Any test is only going to evaluate the dog on that day in those 
> particular conditions and no test is going to be 100%.  There's also the 
> cost factor.  Who is going to do the test?  Who is going to pay for it? 
> What happens if the dog later misbehaves, is the tester held liable? How 
> long is the approval good for?
>
> or perhaps there needs to be some sort of combination of the two 
> approaches. I don't know.  I do know that if we, as disabled people with 
> legitimate service dogs, don't proactively work on something fair to 
> everyone, enforceable and feasible, we are going to get the short end of 
> the stick.
>
> Julie
> Courage to Dare: A Blind Woman's Quest to Train her Own Guide Dog is now 
> available! Get the book here:
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00QXZSMOC
> Visit my new website on developing courage and living authentically:
> http://www.falling-up.com
> -----Original Message----- From: Bridget Walker via nagdu
> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 1:02 PM
> To: Sherry Gomes ; NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide 
> Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: Proposed Act Regarding Service Dogs from the 
> stateof Maine.
>
> I don't see it as someone trying to diminish our rights. I do recognize 
> the owner training question and I just do not know the answer. I asked 
> this question time and time again let's see if I can get some feedback 
> this time.
> I do not want to set anyone off on the list so please understand this is 
> just to better understand everyone's side. We all know how a guide dog is 
> evaluated at a training program so I will not get in to it. I want to know 
> who determines when and at what point an owner trained guide dog is ready? 
> How is this dog evaluated? Multiple people evaluate a program dog, is it a 
> here say from one person, or do multiple people with a background in the 
> work of guide dog training see the team?
> I'm taking a huge dive here but, I hope someone can see the Devils 
> advocate and educate. I know there are some very great individuals who 
> owner train. Please apply this to all areas not just guide work. How does 
> anyone decide between fake and real service dogs? Anyone can get a dog to 
> follow a few commands. Anyone can go buy some equipment off of eBay. 
> Anyone can get a doctors note. How is the public to know?
> I always thought people would get it that a harness is used with a guide 
> dog. This is not the case anymore. There is to much between fake and real 
> dogs.
> Another point I want to bring up is why doesn't anyone do anything about 
> those people who go overboard. Those people who constantly through 
> documentation and have every vest and patch ever made to "prove they have 
> a service dog." When you have to go that far everyone knows it's an act. 
> We need a balance.
> I am sure tired of people in New York and New Jersey abusing the ADA. Some 
> people may say we choose to use guide dogs as if we don't need them. You 
> know what, my guide dog has made my life 1,000,000 times better. Having my 
> guide dog should always be a right and NEVER a privilege.
> Bridget
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Mar 1, 27 Heisei, at 11:36 AM, Sherry Gomes via nagdu 
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I got this off another list. Another state trying to diminish our rights.
>>
>> Below is the text of a bill that is being presented to the state of Maine 
>> legislature in the near future.  Again, this is very concerning, much 
>> like the recent Arizona bill that failed.  If states keep presenting bill’s 
>> such as these, I’m afraid one will get passed and negatively impact the 
>> rights of legitimate service dog teams.
>>
>>
>>
>> 127th MAINE LEGISLATURE
>>
>> FIRST REGULAR SESSION-2015
>>
>> Legislative Document No. 547
>>
>> H.P.
>>
>> 371 House of Representatives, February 26, 2015
>>
>> An Act Regarding Service Dogs
>>
>> Reference to the Committee on Agriculture, Conservation and Forestry 
>> suggested and
>>
>> ordered printed.
>>
>> 49
>>
>> ROBERT B. HUNT
>>
>> Clerk
>>
>> Presented by Representative CAMPBELL of Orrington. (BY REQUEST)
>>
>> Cosponsored by Senator SAVIELLO of Franklin and
>>
>> Representatives: DOORE of Augusta, LAJOIE of Lewiston, MAKER of Calais, 
>> NADEAU of
>>
>> Winslow, STANLEY of Medway, TUELL of East Machias.
>>
>> Printed on recycled paper
>>
>>
>>
>> table with 2 columns and 33 rows
>>
>> 1
>>
>> Be it enacted by the People of the State of Maine as follows:
>>
>> 2
>>
>> Sec. 1. 7 MRSA §3922, sub-§4, as amended by PL 2007, c. 664, §11, is 
>> further
>>
>> 3
>>
>> amended to read:
>>
>> 4
>>
>> 4. Service dogs. If a service dog has not been previously registered or 
>> licensed by
>>
>>
>>
>> the municipal clerk to whom the application is being made, the clerk may 
>> not register the
>>
>> 6
>>
>> dog nor issue to its owner or keeper a license and tag that identifies 
>> the dog as a service
>>
>> 7
>>
>> dog unless the applicant presents written evidence to the municipal clerk 
>> that the dog
>>
>> 8
>>
>> meets the definition of "service dog." For the purpose of this subsection 
>> "written
>>
>> 9
>>
>> evidence" means a service dog certification form approved by the 
>> department in
>>
>>
>>
>> consultation with the Maine Human Rights Commission. The service dog 
>> certification
>>
>> 11
>>
>> form must include a letter signed by a physician, psychologist, physician 
>> assistant or
>>
>> 12
>>
>> nurse practitioner indicating that the owner or keeper or a member of the 
>> owner's or
>>
>> 13
>>
>> keeper's household requires the service dog and a certification or other 
>> document
>>
>> 14
>>
>> indicating that the service dog has completed training from an 
>> established service animal
>>
>>
>>
>> training organization or has been evaluated by a certified animal trainer 
>> and found to have
>>
>> 16
>>
>> a sound temperament suitable for a service dog.
>>
>> 17
>>
>> Sec. 2. 7 MRSA §3923-B, sub-§1-A is enacted to read:
>>
>> 18
>>
>> 1-A. Service dog registration tag. In accordance with subsection 1, the 
>> department
>>
>> 19
>>
>> shall ensure that, with regard to the registration and licensing of a 
>> service dog, the service
>>
>>
>>
>> dog's registration tag clearly indicates that the dog is a service animal 
>> pursuant to Title 5,
>>
>> 21
>>
>> section 4553, subsection 9-E. The department shall devise a method of 
>> ensuring that a
>>
>> 22
>>
>> service dog's registration tag is clearly visible to the public.
>>
>> 23
>>
>> SUMMARY
>>
>> 24
>>
>> This bill requires that an individual registering a service dog present 
>> to the municipal
>>
>>
>>
>> clerk a letter signed by a physician, psychologist, physician assistant 
>> or nurse practitioner
>>
>> 26
>>
>> indicating that the individual or a member of the individual's household 
>> requires the
>>
>> 27
>>
>> service dog and a certification or other document indicating that the 
>> service dog has
>>
>> 28
>>
>> completed training from an established service animal training 
>> organization or has been
>>
>> 29
>>
>> evaluated by a certified animal trainer and found to have a sound 
>> temperament suitable
>>
>>
>>
>> for a service dog. It also requires the Department of Agriculture, 
>> Conservation and
>>
>> 31
>>
>> Forestry to ensure that the registration tag of a service dog clearly 
>> indicates that the dog is
>>
>> 32
>>
>> a service animal and to devise a method of ensuring that a service dog's 
>> registration tag is
>>
>> 33
>>
>> visible to the public.
>>
>> table end
>>
>>
>>
>> Page 1 -127LR0304(01)-1
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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