[nagdu] Fake Service Dog Legislation

Marianne Denning marianne at denningweb.com
Mon Mar 2 15:12:28 UTC 2015


I went to Germany and Austria a few years ago and dogs were in public
places.  I did not have any problems with my guide dog as we travelled
around those countries.  I think it is a great idea to allow pets in
public places as long as they are well behaved.  If a business allows
pets into the business they can clearly post the conditions of
allowing them in.

On 3/2/15, Marion Gwizdala via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Buddy,
>
> 	There are several states that either have or are proposing such
> legislation, Florida being one. The challenge I foresee, though, is
> enforcing the law. I believe the real solution is training law enforcement
> and entities about their rights when it comes to out of control dogs,
> service dog or not. When this happens without fear of repercussion and those
> who claim their pets are service dogs are asked to leave because their dog
> is out of control, the problem will cease to be a problem! JMHO!
>
> Marion
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Buddy Brannan via
> nagdu
> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 6:46 PM
> To: Julie J.; NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: Proposed Act Regarding Service Dogs from the
> stateof Maine.
>
> I really wish someone would attack this problem at the other end. That is,
> to address the “fakers”, put in some penalties with teeth for
> misrepresenting yourself as a person with a disability, since that’s what
> you’re doing by saying your dog is a service dog when it isn’t. Also, it’d
> be great if businesses started exercising *their* rights in this regard.
> Once those things happen, and if there’s still a problem, then I’ll be ready
> to entertain some further certification of my dog.
>
>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> Phone: 814-860-3194
> Mobile: 814-431-0962
> Email: buddy at brannan.name
>
>
>
>> On Mar 1, 2015, at 3:45 PM, Julie J. via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> Bridget,
>>
>> I never thought you were attacking in what you said.  Also if I used the
>> word, "you" in my message, I meant it in the plural as in you all or yawl
>> as people say out here! It is an honest question that needs to be
>> addressed.  I don't want to have my rights go away any more than anyone
>> else does and I don't want people to abuse the system the way it is right
>> now.  It is clear to me that something needs to be done, or it will be
>> done for us and I fear that will end badly.
>>
>> Regarding your thought about mentioning owner training to the
>> programs...ummm...I'm trying to word this very carefully, but I still
>> might mess it up.  Jenine from GDF is really a great person and has never
>> had any problem with owner training. She is the exception.  Some of the
>> program trainers will just ignore it, like it doesn't exist.  Some give
>> you the cold shoulder, like you are beneath them.  And some will be
>> outright hostile.
>>
>> Meghan, who trained Jetta, did train a guide who then went through class
>> at Guide Dogs of the Desert.  I think that went well, but the arrangement
>> was not with her personally, but rather the program she volunteers for.
>> It was a rather unique arrangement.
>>
>> The programs guard their training methods fairly closely.  They certainly
>> are not going to tell me, an owner trainer, how to train a specific task
>> or even give me a hint.   I'd compare it to asking Colonel Sanders for
>> just one of the secret 17 herbs or spices. It isn't going to happen.  And
>> of course the program trainers have a lot of experience and each other as
>> a check and balance system of sorts, but they are no more certified than I
>> am...excepting California.
>>
>> An aspect of owner training that is important to me is the independent
>> nature of it.  I can choose the breed, the training methods, the specific
>> skills etc.  If the programs were the authority would I still be able to
>> use treats in my training?  Would I still be able to work a Doberman?
>> Would I still be able to use my nylon Sport style harness?  If I went to a
>> program for validation or training help or whatever, it would feel not so
>> much like owner training anymore.  I don't feel like I'm explaining that
>> very well.
>>
>> I wish I had more answers.  I really do.
>>
>> Julie
>> Courage to Dare: A Blind Woman's Quest to Train her Own Guide Dog is now
>> available! Get the book here:
>> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00QXZSMOC
>> Visit my new website on developing courage and living authentically:
>> http://www.falling-up.com
>> -----Original Message----- From: Bridget Walker
>> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 1:59 PM
>> To: Julie J.
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: Proposed Act Regarding Service Dogs from the
>> stateof Maine.
>>
>> I understand your points and I was not attacking you. Julie though I do
>> know my message was all over strong in questions and opinions.
>> I think there needs to be a combination of people assessing what a
>> disability is for a person. It's true some people can get a doctor to sign
>> off on anything but, will a rehab person understand an MRI of the brain
>> that a neurologist could explain? I think we need both doctors and rehab
>> to work together. Your idea is great. It's really hard to know for sure
>> what a disability is and how it will effect someone every day. I have CP
>> but, my guide dog is not a combo dog because I manage my mobility
>> impairment with medication. This came from a combination of doctors.
>> Sometimes you have to see more then one specialist to really specify the
>> specifics of your disability.
>> I'm not taking a stab toward you but, I am going to point out that my dog
>> received several evaluations coming from a program. The point is not that
>> he is better trained. The point is there were people evaluating my dog who
>> train guide dogs every day all day. You know, why don't you work with one
>> of the training programs? I mean this really. If you have ideas about
>> training talk to them about them.
>> About that bit on the store thing. I can't agree more with you. I wish
>> people could see they need to change aspects to their life to manage. It's
>> like me saying "I need my professor to excuse me from class every Day at
>> 12:00 because the light from the window gives me a headache. When really
>> all I need to do is go sit on the other side of the room. Of course I have
>> never and will never do such a thing.
>> I never saw my disability as a good thing but, something that I just live
>> with. It doesn't really make to much of a difference to me. I do not know
>> why the idea of being disabled is a peeling to so many people these days.
>> Bridget
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>>> On Mar 1, 27 Heisei, at 2:33 PM, Julie J. <julielj at neb.rr.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> No one evaluates my dog, but me, at least with the last ones.  Jetta was
>>> trained by someone else, so we have her opinion and mine.
>>>
>>> I do a lot of work at blindness events, with my state agency, attend NFB
>>> state conventions, sometimes the ACB state convention and I have a very
>>> good friend who is a certified O&M teacher.   There have been a lot of
>>> people, people who know about how guide dogs work and what they do, see
>>> me work my dogs.   I am quite often the one they go to with guide dog
>>> questions.
>>>
>>> Regarding the bigger picture...I have known for some time, or have felt,
>>> that we are getting to a place where some sort of regulation is eminent.
>>> There are too many people, making too many claims of questionable facts
>>> and way too many ill behaved dogs. I don't think it is the outright
>>> fakers that are the problem.  I think those are actually a very small
>>> number and are pretty obvious.  What I think is the real problem is folks
>>> who don't understand what a disability is and claim to have one, when
>>> what they really have is poor self management, poor decision making
>>> skills and an inflated sense of what the word impairment means.  Please
>>> don't go off on me about how there are lots of people with legitimate
>>> service dogs in this category. I am in no way saying that psychiatric
>>> conditions cannot be disabilities, absolutely they can.  What I see a lot
>>> of is things like, "My Pooky makes grocery shopping more pleasant and
>>> less stressful."   To me, that doesn't sound like a disability.  It
>>> sounds normal.  Seriously I just got home from the grocery store and less
>>> stress is a wonderful thing, but if that were my disability, I'd make it
>>> a point to go on Wednesday at 10 p.m. when I'd be the only person in the
>>> store.
>>>
>>> It's the people with only the mildest of unpleasant life circumstances
>>> that choose to haul their half trained dog into public because of their
>>> perception that the dog helps them that is the real problem. These people
>>> really believe they have a disability and they really believe their dog
>>> is trained.  That is their reality and there is no education that will
>>> ever change that perception.
>>>
>>> As I see it there are only really two ways to go to address this whole
>>> issue.
>>> 1. We can have the government come up with some sort of elaborate system
>>> of determining disability.  Medical doctors are not in a position to do
>>> this. They are good at diagnosing medical conditions, but disability is
>>> how that condition affects you on a daily basis.  A doctor can diagnose
>>> that a person has arthritis, but as we all know most people who have
>>> arthritis are not disabled.  There are some who could be considered
>>> disabled because of arthritis though.  Doctors are not trained in this
>>> area.  Occupational therapists or rehabilitation counselors are in a
>>> better position to make this determination.  The social security
>>> determination is a close, but not perfect determination, because it only
>>> addresses disability as it relates to paid employment.  There are
>>> disabled people who do not qualify for social security.
>>>
>>> 2. We can regulate the dogs.  This one has so many problems.  I'm not
>>> even sure where to begin.  This seems to be the route everyone wants to
>>> take though.  Any test is only going to evaluate the dog on that day in
>>> those particular conditions and no test is going to be 100%.  There's
>>> also the cost factor.  Who is going to do the test?  Who is going to pay
>>> for it? What happens if the dog later misbehaves, is the tester held
>>> liable? How long is the approval good for?
>>>
>>> or perhaps there needs to be some sort of combination of the two
>>> approaches. I don't know.  I do know that if we, as disabled people with
>>> legitimate service dogs, don't proactively work on something fair to
>>> everyone, enforceable and feasible, we are going to get the short end of
>>> the stick.
>>>
>>> Julie
>>> Courage to Dare: A Blind Woman's Quest to Train her Own Guide Dog is now
>>> available! Get the book here:
>>> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00QXZSMOC
>>> Visit my new website on developing courage and living authentically:
>>> http://www.falling-up.com
>>> -----Original Message----- From: Bridget Walker via nagdu
>>> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2015 1:02 PM
>>> To: Sherry Gomes ; NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide
>>> Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Fw: Proposed Act Regarding Service Dogs from the
>>> stateof Maine.
>>>
>>> I don't see it as someone trying to diminish our rights. I do recognize
>>> the owner training question and I just do not know the answer. I asked
>>> this question time and time again let's see if I can get some feedback
>>> this time.
>>> I do not want to set anyone off on the list so please understand this is
>>> just to better understand everyone's side. We all know how a guide dog is
>>> evaluated at a training program so I will not get in to it. I want to
>>> know who determines when and at what point an owner trained guide dog is
>>> ready? How is this dog evaluated? Multiple people evaluate a program dog,
>>> is it a here say from one person, or do multiple people with a background
>>> in the work of guide dog training see the team?
>>> I'm taking a huge dive here but, I hope someone can see the Devils
>>> advocate and educate. I know there are some very great individuals who
>>> owner train. Please apply this to all areas not just guide work. How does
>>> anyone decide between fake and real service dogs? Anyone can get a dog to
>>> follow a few commands. Anyone can go buy some equipment off of eBay.
>>> Anyone can get a doctors note. How is the public to know?
>>> I always thought people would get it that a harness is used with a guide
>>> dog. This is not the case anymore. There is to much between fake and real
>>> dogs.
>>> Another point I want to bring up is why doesn't anyone do anything about
>>> those people who go overboard. Those people who constantly through
>>> documentation and have every vest and patch ever made to "prove they have
>>> a service dog." When you have to go that far everyone knows it's an act.
>>> We need a balance.
>>> I am sure tired of people in New York and New Jersey abusing the ADA.
>>> Some people may say we choose to use guide dogs as if we don't need them.
>>> You know what, my guide dog has made my life 1,000,000 times better.
>>> Having my guide dog should always be a right and NEVER a privilege.
>>> Bridget
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>>> On Mar 1, 27 Heisei, at 11:36 AM, Sherry Gomes via nagdu
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> I got this off another list. Another state trying to diminish our
>>>> rights.
>>>>
>>>> Below is the text of a bill that is being presented to the state of
>>>> Maine legislature in the near future.  Again, this is very concerning,
>>>> much like the recent Arizona bill that failed.  If states keep
>>>> presenting bill’s such as these, I’m afraid one will get passed and
>>>> negatively impact the rights of legitimate service dog teams.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 127th MAINE LEGISLATURE
>>>>
>>>> FIRST REGULAR SESSION-2015
>>>>
>>>> Legislative Document No. 547
>>>>
>>>> H.P.
>>>>
>>>> 371 House of Representatives, February 26, 2015
>>>>
>>>> An Act Regarding Service Dogs
>>>>
>>>> Reference to the Committee on Agriculture, Conservation and Forestry
>>>> suggested and
>>>>
>>>> ordered printed.
>>>>
>>>> 49
>>>>
>>>> ROBERT B. HUNT
>>>>
>>>> Clerk
>>>>
>>>> Presented by Representative CAMPBELL of Orrington. (BY REQUEST)
>>>>
>>>> Cosponsored by Senator SAVIELLO of Franklin and
>>>>
>>>> Representatives: DOORE of Augusta, LAJOIE of Lewiston, MAKER of Calais,
>>>> NADEAU of
>>>>
>>>> Winslow, STANLEY of Medway, TUELL of East Machias.
>>>>
>>>> Printed on recycled paper
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> table with 2 columns and 33 rows
>>>>
>>>> 1
>>>>
>>>> Be it enacted by the People of the State of Maine as follows:
>>>>
>>>> 2
>>>>
>>>> Sec. 1. 7 MRSA §3922, sub-§4, as amended by PL 2007, c. 664, §11, is
>>>> further
>>>>
>>>> 3
>>>>
>>>> amended to read:
>>>>
>>>> 4
>>>>
>>>> 4. Service dogs. If a service dog has not been previously registered or
>>>> licensed by
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> the municipal clerk to whom the application is being made, the clerk may
>>>> not register the
>>>>
>>>> 6
>>>>
>>>> dog nor issue to its owner or keeper a license and tag that identifies
>>>> the dog as a service
>>>>
>>>> 7
>>>>
>>>> dog unless the applicant presents written evidence to the municipal
>>>> clerk that the dog
>>>>
>>>> 8
>>>>
>>>> meets the definition of "service dog." For the purpose of this
>>>> subsection "written
>>>>
>>>> 9
>>>>
>>>> evidence" means a service dog certification form approved by the
>>>> department in
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> consultation with the Maine Human Rights Commission. The service dog
>>>> certification
>>>>
>>>> 11
>>>>
>>>> form must include a letter signed by a physician, psychologist,
>>>> physician assistant or
>>>>
>>>> 12
>>>>
>>>> nurse practitioner indicating that the owner or keeper or a member of
>>>> the owner's or
>>>>
>>>> 13
>>>>
>>>> keeper's household requires the service dog and a certification or other
>>>> document
>>>>
>>>> 14
>>>>
>>>> indicating that the service dog has completed training from an
>>>> established service animal
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> training organization or has been evaluated by a certified animal
>>>> trainer and found to have
>>>>
>>>> 16
>>>>
>>>> a sound temperament suitable for a service dog.
>>>>
>>>> 17
>>>>
>>>> Sec. 2. 7 MRSA §3923-B, sub-§1-A is enacted to read:
>>>>
>>>> 18
>>>>
>>>> 1-A. Service dog registration tag. In accordance with subsection 1, the
>>>> department
>>>>
>>>> 19
>>>>
>>>> shall ensure that, with regard to the registration and licensing of a
>>>> service dog, the service
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> dog's registration tag clearly indicates that the dog is a service
>>>> animal pursuant to Title 5,
>>>>
>>>> 21
>>>>
>>>> section 4553, subsection 9-E. The department shall devise a method of
>>>> ensuring that a
>>>>
>>>> 22
>>>>
>>>> service dog's registration tag is clearly visible to the public.
>>>>
>>>> 23
>>>>
>>>> SUMMARY
>>>>
>>>> 24
>>>>
>>>> This bill requires that an individual registering a service dog present
>>>> to the municipal
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> clerk a letter signed by a physician, psychologist, physician assistant
>>>> or nurse practitioner
>>>>
>>>> 26
>>>>
>>>> indicating that the individual or a member of the individual's household
>>>> requires the
>>>>
>>>> 27
>>>>
>>>> service dog and a certification or other document indicating that the
>>>> service dog has
>>>>
>>>> 28
>>>>
>>>> completed training from an established service animal training
>>>> organization or has been
>>>>
>>>> 29
>>>>
>>>> evaluated by a certified animal trainer and found to have a sound
>>>> temperament suitable
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> for a service dog. It also requires the Department of Agriculture,
>>>> Conservation and
>>>>
>>>> 31
>>>>
>>>> Forestry to ensure that the registration tag of a service dog clearly
>>>> indicates that the dog is
>>>>
>>>> 32
>>>>
>>>> a service animal and to devise a method of ensuring that a service dog's
>>>> registration tag is
>>>>
>>>> 33
>>>>
>>>> visible to the public.
>>>>
>>>> table end
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Page 1 -127LR0304(01)-1
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
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-- 
Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
(513) 607-6053




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