[nagdu] Customer satisfaction & Supposed Facts about SEGDI
Raven Tolliver
ravend729 at gmail.com
Fri Mar 27 03:40:37 UTC 2015
Unfortunately Renee, there are too many schools that do not relinquish
full ownership of their dogs. There are nearly 20 guide dog programs
in this country, and roughly a quarter of them to my knowledge, grant
ownership upon graduation. And all of those programs have undesirable
qualities that deterred me from attending their classes.
Also unfortunate is the matter-of-fact that dogs are property. When I
own something, I have the right to do with it as I please, and the
same goes for animals. Public agencies are at work for people who
violate laws with the treatment of their property. So if there's no
local animal control where you live, that is the fault of the local
government, and that should not have anything to do with whether or
not guide dog schools grant ownership to all of their graduates.
Perhaps a guide dog school should think carefully about placing a dog
in an area where there are no local agencies to assist them in the
instance of a cruelty case. And as I've said, if you don't trust
someone, don't give them a dog. Withholding ownership does not stop
anyone from mistreating, abusing, or neglecting anything or any being.
Sandra, there are plenty of dogs in the world that continue in health
past the age of 11. We should allow dogs to decide when they are ready
to retire rather than allowing some school to decide, or simply
sending back the harness just because a certain birthday has passed.
It is no doubt inconsiderate to work a dog that is clearly chronically
unwell. But is it really heartbreaking to continue working a dog that
is thriving, vibrant, and still puts all his energy into his job, even
passed the age of 11?
Frankly, this idea that 5-7 is middle-aged and 8-9 and over is senior
is very disturbing. Large breed dogs should live well into their
teens, and often do, some in much better health than others, depending
on how the owner has maintained their dog's wellness over the years.
Dogs are not supposed to be old at 11.
The age of the dog has been reduced considerably due to widespread
chronic and systemic disease. A dog kept in good health will live a
long life, outside of accidents and trauma. It might be common for
dogs to be on the decline around a certain age, but that does not make
it normal or acceptable.
--
Raven
You are valuable because of your potential, not because of what you
have or what you do.
Naturally-reared guide dogs
https://groups.google.com/d/forum/nrguidedogs
On 3/26/15, Renee Walker via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> We don't have a local animal control where I live. Many animals are abused,
> neglected, used for dog fighting here. No one stops it. Local businesses
> fought us when I first started raising puppies here & even some after much
> work in education & awareness when I got my first guide. Business owners,
> police officers, colleges, malls were refusing us entry. They were afraid my
> dog would attack others. Everyone's world isn't the same. Just something to
> think about. It seems we all will never fully agree. That is fine. You do
> your way or choose schools you agree with. Others of us will do the same.
> Just let us disagree & let us each say we like our way or our school or
> whatever.
>
> In The Shadow of Christ, Master Teacher,
> Renée K. Walker
> www.deafblindhope.wordpress.com
> www.wynfield.wordpress.com
> Sent from my IPhone with braille display
>
>> On Mar 26, 2015, at 6:45 PM, Buddy Brannan via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> The "someone" who is tasked with looking out for the welfare of our dogs
>> is local animal control. Why should we, as blind people, be subject to an
>> extra bit of policing because we use a guide dog? Such abuse as you
>> describe could by rights be reported to animal control/humane society for
>> disposition, and, if abuse is found, the dog could be removed without
>> intervention or oversight from a school who may or may not act fairly.
>>
>> --
>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>> Phone: 814-860-3194
>> Mobile: 814-431-0962
>> Email: buddy at brannan.name
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Mar 26, 2015, at 5:50 PM, S L Johnson via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello:
>>>
>>> I think it is an issue of some irresponsible guide dog handlers making it
>>>
>>> bad for all of us. The schools find themselves in situations where there
>>> is
>>> obvious neglect or abuse. The result is that they feel they need to
>>> have
>>> their contracts allow them to intervene. I'm not saying it is right but,
>>> it
>>> is a fact. Sometimes there is a person who should not be working that
>>> dog
>>> any longer. Once at a Lions Club function I encountered a dog that was
>>> at
>>> least twenty pounds overweight and very out of control. That is a case
>>> where the school should have the right to take that dog. I once reported
>>> a
>>> man who let his dog jump onto the meat counters in stores and let him be
>>> out
>>> of control. It was so bad that the store was afraid to let other dogs
>>> come
>>> in. There was also overwhelming evidence of abuse. Everyone in the
>>> community was extremely pleased when the school took that dog back. The
>>> very aggressive dog that kept attacking my dog should have been taken
>>> back
>>> to the school. If a team is found to be unsafe, that dog should be taken
>>>
>>> away. If someone insists on working an older dog way past when it should
>>>
>>> have been retired, then the school should have the right to insist that
>>> graduate retire their dog. I think anything over eleven is extremely
>>> cruel
>>> for the dog. I would never consider doing that. It is people who do not
>>>
>>> consider the welfare of their dogs that cause the schools to make these
>>> rules. If the schools can't trust the handlers to be responsible, then
>>> someone has to look out for the innocent dogs.
>>>
>>> Sandra and Eva
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Tai Blas via nagdu
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2015 4:38 PM
>>> To: Marion Gwizdala ; NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of
>>> Guide
>>> Dog Users
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Customer satisfaction & Supposed Facts about SEGDI
>>>
>>> If a school includes a provision allowing it to repossess a dog guide,
>>> then
>>> that school is not providing full and unconditional ownership. I am tired
>>> of
>>> this deception. Either you provide full ownership or you do not.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Tai Tomasi, J.D., M.P.A
>>> Email: tai.tomasi8 at gmail.com
>>> Sent from my iPhone. Please excuse my brevity and any grammatical errors.
>>>
>>>> On Mar 26, 2015, at 3:29 PM, Marion Gwizdala via nagdu
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Rene,
>>>>
>>>> Let me first begin by saying that I would not post something to this
>>>> list about a guide dog training program that I do not know to be true
>>>> and
>>>> verifiable and I object to the insinuation that I would. I concede that
>>>> you may not have the most current information; however, before casting
>>>> aspersions, it would be good to check out the facts before asserting
>>>> another is incorrect. The information I shared was presented at the
>>>> annual
>>>> meeting of the Florida Association of Guide Dog Users I attended on
>>>> Sunday, January 18, 2015 by an official representative of Southeastern
>>>> Guide Dogs. I have asked Sherrill O'Brien, FLAGDU's president to share
>>>> with the list the name of the person who made the presentation and
>>>> shared
>>>> the information. If you doubt our veracity, perhaps you should give
>>>> SEGDI
>>>> a call at 941-729-5665 and ask them for yourself.
>>>>
>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>
>>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
>>>> National Federation of the Blind
>>>> (813) 626-2789
>>>> (888) 624-3841 (Hotline)
>>>> President at nagdu.org
>>>> http://www.nagdu.org
>>>>
>>>> High expectations create unlimited potential for the blind!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Renee Walker
>>>> via nagdu
>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2015 1:59 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Customer satisfaction & Supposed Facts about SEGDI
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>> I just received my second guide from Southeastern Guide Dogs, Inc.
>>>> (SEGDI). I was also a puppy raiser starting back in the mid-90ā?Ts until
>>>>
>>>> 2007. I must disagree with some statements made about ownership and
>>>> retirement policies at SEGDI. I am DeafBlind, so I received the contract
>>>> a
>>>> few days before I signed the contract in order to read it carefully at
>>>> my
>>>> own pace in braille. My sighted husband also read a printed copy. We got
>>>>
>>>> out the first contract from my first guide and compared it to see if
>>>> there
>>>> were changes. I also re-read the contract today in order to properly
>>>> make
>>>> this post. Let me briefly summarize what is actually in a SEGDI contract
>>>>
>>>> which is the transfer of ownership agreement.
>>>>
>>>> 1. You are being given ownership of the guide dog without any cost with
>>>> subject to terms and agreements within the document.
>>>> 2. Continued support- Graduate agrees to contact Graduate Services if
>>>> any
>>>> help is needed for support and follow-up care. (In addition, they do
>>>> have
>>>> a written plan of follow-up care now that is more involved than when I
>>>> graduated 10 years ago with my first dog. They were smaller then and
>>>> follow-up care was provided to all who asked for it as often as needed
>>>> by
>>>> phone, email, home visits, or campus-continued training as a last
>>>> resort,
>>>> so that stretched their small staff, so a lot wasnā?Tt done toward SEGDI
>>>>
>>>> reaching out other than emails and surveys. Now they have grown and
>>>> donor
>>>> funding as increased, so follow-up is one of the areas they are beefing
>>>>
>>>> up, but they are always just a phone call or email or text away if you
>>>> need something. I only needed them once before, but they were spot on
>>>> immediately when I did and sent emails periodically to check in on me
>>>> before. Now, they will do the reaching out regularly and more often
>>>> specifically rather than waiting on you, but it is still your
>>>> responsibility to contact them if you need them.) 3. Assistance in event
>>>>
>>>> of retirement- At the retirement, the graduate is expected within
>>>> reasonable measures to identify appropriate placement for the dog at
>>>> retirement. If the graduate is unable to identify an appropriate home,
>>>> SEGDI will assist, within reasonable measures, with the placement. (I am
>>>>
>>>> keeping my graduate, but others find relatives or friends. Still others
>>>> need SEGDI to reach out to their contacts for help finding a suitable
>>>> placement. NOTE: Age is not mentioned.) 4. Continued possession and
>>>> ownership: you canā?Tt sell, lend or donate the dog to another school or
>>>>
>>>> similar organization or research facility or third party without SEGDI
>>>> agreeing.
>>>> 5.SEGDI can repossess the dog if abuse or negligence happens including
>>>> gaining too much weight or losing too much weight or if the team is not
>>>> working safely. They stipulate here that they will work with the team as
>>>>
>>>> much as possible to correct unsafe practices prior to removal. (Removal
>>>> is
>>>> always a last resort or when necessary for the safety of the dog.) 6.
>>>> The
>>>> harness is the only thing that doesnā?Tt belong to you. You agree to
>>>> give
>>>> it back when the dog retires or if the dog is repossessed for the
>>>> reasons
>>>> listed in the agreement.
>>>> 7. You are responsible for the dogā?Ts behavior, food, medical, proper
>>>> shelter, general care, in practice and financially.
>>>> 8. If you become incapacitated, die, or become ineligible (regain vision
>>>>
>>>> to limits above what is required) and the dog is less than 5 years old,
>>>> you agree that SEGDI can evaluate the dog to see if they can be used as
>>>> a
>>>> guide elsewhere, and regardless of age recommends having a written care
>>>>
>>>> plan in place to provide for the dogā?Ts care. (I personally think this
>>>> should be for any pet.)
>>>>
>>>> Thatā?Ts basically it. The contract is a bit wordier, but I lumped
>>>> things
>>>> together in categories.
>>>>
>>>> My experience with SEGDI is that yes, the dog is yours in all respects,
>>>> but for the dogā?Ts safety which I WANT, they have set up circumstances
>>>> where they can take the dog back if necessary, but only after they have
>>>> tried to help the graduate team to work together well, safely, and
>>>> happily. I know this effort to be true in a few cases. I donā?Tt want an
>>>>
>>>> organization that looks at these dogs a mere tools or things even if the
>>>>
>>>> law describes them as tools for legality sake. I want an organization
>>>> that
>>>> cares about its dogs' health and well-being from start to finish. SEGDI
>>>> does and shows it. They also care about their blind and deafblind
>>>> consumers and want the team to work well together being safe and happy
>>>> from start to finish. The agreement supports that.
>>>>
>>>> Retirement is not specified because SEGDI has always and continues to do
>>>>
>>>> that on a case by case scenario because dogs are different, working
>>>> environments are different, and home environments are different. As a
>>>> general rule, they start at 9 or 10 educating you of signs to look for
>>>> in
>>>> your guide that may signal the dog may be getting ready to retire. At
>>>> 10,
>>>> they want to meet with you and evaluate things. At 11, they meet with
>>>> you
>>>> again. At 12, if still working, they will meet with you again. These
>>>> meetings are discussion. They are not about forcing you to agree to
>>>> retire
>>>> your dog at all. Of course, if it is obvious that a guide is being
>>>> forced
>>>> to work while in pain or very unhappily, SEGDI would take more immediate
>>>>
>>>> or firm action, but I doubt that happens often because most handlers
>>>> love
>>>> their dogs well. SEGDI knew that it was difficult for both me and my
>>>> guide
>>>> to discuss retirement. Yes, even my guide showed he wanted to work and
>>>> be
>>>> with me, but you have to recognize when it is best for the dog because
>>>> they will sometimes work themselves to death because they love you so
>>>> much. Again, though, I stress, it is discussing and coming to a decision
>>>>
>>>> together on what is best for both of you, but especially the dog. I know
>>>>
>>>> one team near me that I have known for 15 years even before I lost much
>>>> of
>>>> my vision that worked until the dog was about 13. That is unusual, but
>>>> the
>>>> dog was an active, healthy viszla who was in a comfortable working and
>>>> home setting. The dog recently died at 15 after enjoying a couple of fun
>>>>
>>>> and relaxing years with his blind handler as a pet. SEGDI takes the
>>>> situation case by case, but yeah 11 years old might be a good rule of
>>>> thumb to use as a retirement age. Some may need to retire before 10 even
>>>>
>>>> if they just lose interest and arenā?Tt happy anymore. My dog is almost
>>>> 12
>>>> and we just retired him. He still wants to go, but I want him to relax
>>>> and
>>>> enjoy life some. He still has a couple of places that let him go as a
>>>> pet,
>>>> so it works for us and him.
>>>>
>>>> I love SEGDI. Are they perfect? Probably not, but I have worked on both
>>>> sides now. I love how they do things. I love how they are always looking
>>>>
>>>> at themselves as objectively as they can and work to keep what works and
>>>>
>>>> fix what doesnā?Tt. They do it all based on private donations only which
>>>>
>>>> hasnā?Tt always been a lot because the bigger, older, more famous
>>>> schools
>>>> tend to get most of the attention. They donā?Tt bash other schools at
>>>> all.
>>>> They recognize the need for many schools with even different methods as
>>>> long as they are humane and about putting out safe and happy working
>>>> teams.
>>>>
>>>> I personally have worked with another couple of schools not by getting a
>>>>
>>>> dog, but as further consultation when at Helen Keller National Center
>>>> for
>>>> the DeafBlind. I donā?Tt always agree with how they do things. I have
>>>> seen
>>>> some teams that really shouldnā?Tt be working because they arenā?Tt
>>>> safe,
>>>> but they are. That said. I realize that these methods are different and
>>>> probably work fine and the unsafe teams were isolated events, not the
>>>> norm; so I wonā?Tt call out names, and I wonā?Tt say a school
>>>> shouldnā?Tt
>>>> be considered. Consider all of the schools. Choose the one that fits
>>>> your
>>>> situation and needs. I do recommend SEGDI because I have seen the good
>>>> work and the good results and the willingness to learn from mistakes or
>>>> less than perfect results. That is what makes a good school and happy,
>>>> healthy, safe teams.
>>>>
>>>> Professionalism and respect is what SEGDI gives and what I try to give.
>>>> I
>>>> also expect that same thing from others on this list. Iā?Tm new, so
>>>> Iā?Tm
>>>> assuming that these posts of misinformation were unintentional borne out
>>>>
>>>> of concern for blind partners and dog guides. It probably came from
>>>> listening to someone explain what was done for their specific situation,
>>>>
>>>> but mistaken as being a statement of actual SEGDI policy when it isnā?Tt
>>>>
>>>> the case. SEGDI has good policies, but they also have as part of their
>>>> good methods the idea of looking at each case individually when choosing
>>>>
>>>> to accept a blind consumer to matching to training to graduating to
>>>> following up to retirement. Doing what is best for each individual team
>>>> is
>>>> the main concern. Iā?Tm sure it was unintentional, so I suggest we keep
>>>> statements about schools we donā?Tt know about to being questions for
>>>> confirmation by those who have been there rather than supposed
>>>> statements
>>>> of facts. All schools have some negatives. All schools have a lot of
>>>> positives. Letā?Ts remember that. I am sure I wonā?Tt second guess my
>>>> decision to participate here.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry this was so long.
>>>>
>>>> In The Shadow of The Master Teacher, Jesus Christ, RenƩe K. Walker,
>>>> Ed.S.
>>>> Principal/CEO
>>>> Wynfield Christian Academy
>>>> DeafBlind Hope
>>>> 143 Williamson Dr.
>>>> Macon, GA 31210
>>>> Monroe County
>>>> (978) 563-9663
>>>> Fax: Email documents to rkwalker at wynfieldca.org or mail
>>>> (478) 845-2294 (Deaf IP Relay direct line)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 26, 2015, at 11:09 AM, S L Johnson via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe they think it is in the best interest of both the person and the
>>>>> dog to retire by age eleven. I've certainly heard trainers complain
>>>>> about people who continue to work older dogs who should have been
>>>>> allowed to retire. I've also heard from some veterinarians who get
>>>>> quite upset with clients who are still working dogs past age ten.
>>>>> Many people feel that an older dog deserves to just relax and enjoy
>>>>> life when they are that old. I personally would not continue to work
>>>>> an older dog. That dog has given me many years of dedicated service
>>>>> and deserves some rest and relaxation in their old age. We have to
>>>>> quit thinking of ourselves and think of the health and wellbeing of an
>>>>> older dog. Many people criticized me for retiring my eight-year-old
>>>>> Tara due to hip dysplasia. Some people told me to give her stronger
>>>>> pain pills so she could keep working. It was the opinion of myself and
>>>>>
>>>>> my vet that it would be cruel to continue working her.
>>>>> I know there are differing opinions about retirement age and it is
>>>>> always a tough decision.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Marion Gwizdala via nagdu
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2015 7:21 AM
>>>>> To: helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com <mailto:helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com> ;
>>>>> 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Customer satisfaction
>>>>>
>>>>> Though Southeastern claims to give full ownership upon completion of
>>>>> training, they also now require their consumers to retire their dogs
>>>>> by the age of 11. So, you tell me, if you own your dog, how can they
>>>>> have a mandatory retirement age? I asked that question during the
>>>>> Florida Association of Guide dog Users meeting in January and got no
>>>>> answer.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>>
>>>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
>>>>> National Federation of the Blind
>>>>> (813) 626-2789
>>>>> (888) 624-3841 (Hotline)
>>>>> President at nagdu.org
>>>>> http://www.nagdu.org
>>>>>
>>>>> High expectations create unlimited potential for the blind!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Helga via
>>>>> nagdu
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2015 6:38 PM
>>>>> To: Debby Phillips; Tracy Carcione; nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Customer satisfaction
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Ms. Debby. How are you? I just wanted to ask you, have you consider
>>>>> in applying to Southeastern Guide Dog school? Just wondering. This
>>>>> school is located in Tampa Florida, but I think they also give you
>>>>> ownership of your dog! I'm not so sure about though. If someone knows,
>>>>> feel free to correct me ok? I'm considering in applying over there
>>>>> this July! However, I don't know you have heard of the policy that
>>>>> they have,I'm actually aginst it a little bit, but the reason I'm
>>>>> considering in applying over there is because I live in Florida. Hope
>>>>> to
>>>>> hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God bless!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Helga Schreiber
>>>>>
>>>>> Fundraiser Coordinator for Phi Theta Kappa, Alpha Delta Iota chapter
>>>>> Member of National Federation of the Blind and Florida Association of
>>>>> Blind Students Member of The International Networkers Team (INT)
>>>>> Independent Entrepreneur of the Company 4Life Research
>>>>>
>>>>> Phone: (561) 706-5950
>>>>> Email: helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com
>>>>> Skype: helga.schreiber26
>>>>> 4Life Website: http://helgaschreiber.my4life.com/1/default.aspx
>>>>> INT Website: http://int4life.com/
>>>>>
>>>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that
>>>>> whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John
>>>>> 3:16 -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Debby Phillips via nagdu
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2015 5:17 PM
>>>>> To: Tracy Carcione ; NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of
>>>>> Guide Dog Users ; nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Customer satisfaction
>>>>>
>>>>> I hope not, Tracy but it may have to be that. This is so hard for me
>>>>> as I've been getting my dogs from TSE since 1981. And if I end up
>>>>> going to GDB, I'll have to eat crow, too. (Grin). But I don't know
>>>>> what to do. In the meantime, my application is in at TSE, and I have
>>>>> to decide if I'm going to apply elsewhere where that would be. There
>>>>> are things I like about GEB, but I know their waiting list is long,
>>>>> too. Leader has a fairly short wait time once you get accepted, which
>>>>> can take 30 to 60 days. I like GDA but for are fairly small, and I
>>>>> think their wait times might be pretty long, too. I just can't make
>>>>> myself go to Pilot.
>>>>> As much as I am trying to stop being close-minded about that school, I
>>>>> just can't quite make that leap. There is Fidelco, but I have a hard
>>>>> time seeing me with a shepherd. And then there's Guide Dog
>>>>> Foundation. I really like Jenine Stanley and have heard good things
>>>>> about that school too, but I'm also hearing rumblings about how
>>>>> "corporate" they're becoming. I need the wisdom of Solomon. And
>>>>> anybody
>>>>> else in this process does too.
>>>>> Peace, Debby
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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