[nagdu] Customer satisfaction & Supposed Facts about SEGDI

Fri Mar 27 14:38:45 UTC 2015

Marion I'm in agreement with you. When I was in new york there was a 
removal of a guide dog and it really scared me. I was concerned that if 
someone didn't like my handling of Tres they might try to see that he 
was taken from me.  I watched Tres so carefully that I had a hard time 
relaxing and just working with him. I don't react well even to lell 
meant assistance or comments especially those not asked for because of 
this. Tres is well treated and praised  but seeing a dog removed upset 
me. fortunately it happened just a couple of weeks before I left to come 
home.

On 3/27/2015 6:11 AM, Marion Gwizdala via nagdu wrote:
> Sandra,
>
> 	I agree that there are those who should not have dogs; however, I
> also believe that the culture of training programs exacerbate the issue by
> putting themselves in an authoritative, paternalistic  position that
> discourages consumers from seeking assistance before the issue becomes
> unmanageable. As long as training programs continue to maintain probationary
> periods and impose conditions upon ownership, there will be those who will
> fear the program will unjustly remove their dogs and will not seek the
> guidance they need to resolve concerns before they become unmanageable.
>
> 	Of course, there will always be those who act irresponsibly and, for
> these handlers, there are community enforcement agencies that can deal with
> issues of abuse or neglect. It should not be the role of the training
> program to be the policing agency. This needs to be left to those the
> community has empowered with policing, such as law enforcement and animal
> services. JMHO!
>
> Fraternally yours,
>
> Marion Gwizdala, President
> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
> National Federation of the Blind
> (813) 626-2789
> (888) 624-3841 (Hotline)
> President at nagdu.org
> http://www.nagdu.org
>
> High expectations create unlimited potential for the blind!
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of S L Johnson via
> nagdu
> Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2015 5:50 PM
> To: Tai Blas; NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Customer satisfaction & Supposed Facts about SEGDI
>
> Hello:
>
> I think it is an issue of some irresponsible guide dog handlers making it
> bad for all of us.  The schools find themselves in situations where there is
> obvious neglect or abuse.  The result is that they feel they  need to have
> their contracts allow them to intervene.  I'm not saying it is right but, it
> is a fact.  Sometimes there is a person who should not be working that dog
> any longer.  Once at a Lions Club function I encountered a dog that was at
> least twenty pounds overweight and very out of control.  That is a case
> where the school should have the right to take that dog.  I once reported a
> man who let his dog jump onto the meat counters in stores and let him be out
> of control.  It was so bad that the store was afraid to let other dogs come
> in.  There was also overwhelming evidence of abuse.  Everyone in the
> community was extremely pleased when the school took that dog back.  The
> very aggressive dog that kept attacking my dog should have been taken back
> to the school.  If a team is found to be unsafe, that dog should be taken
> away.  If someone insists on working an older dog way past when it should
> have been retired, then the school should have the right to insist that
> graduate retire their dog.  I think anything over eleven is extremely cruel
> for the dog.  I would never consider doing that.  It is people who do not
> consider the welfare of their dogs that cause the schools to make these
> rules.  If the schools can't trust the handlers to be responsible, then
> someone has to look out for the innocent dogs.
>
> Sandra and Eva
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tai Blas via nagdu
> Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2015 4:38 PM
> To: Marion Gwizdala ; NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide
> Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Customer satisfaction & Supposed Facts about SEGDI
>
> If a school includes a provision allowing it to repossess a dog guide, then
> that school is not providing full and unconditional ownership. I am tired of
> this deception. Either you provide full ownership or you do not.
>
>
>
> Tai Tomasi, J.D., M.P.A
> Email: tai.tomasi8 at gmail.com
> Sent from my iPhone. Please excuse my brevity and any grammatical errors.
>
>> On Mar 26, 2015, at 3:29 PM, Marion Gwizdala via nagdu
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Rene,
>>
>>     Let me first begin by saying that I would not post something to
>> this list about a guide dog training program that I do not know to be
>> true and verifiable and I object to the insinuation that I would. I
>> concede that you may not have the most current information; however,
>> before casting aspersions, it would be good to check out the facts
>> before asserting another is incorrect. The information I shared was
>> presented at the annual meeting of the Florida Association of Guide
>> Dog Users I attended on Sunday, January 18, 2015 by an official
>> representative of Southeastern Guide Dogs. I have asked Sherrill
>> O'Brien, FLAGDU's president to share with the list the name of the
>> person who made the presentation and shared the information. If you
>> doubt our veracity, perhaps you should give SEGDI a call at 941-729-5665
> and ask them for yourself.
>> Fraternally yours,
>>
>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
>> National Federation of the Blind
>> (813) 626-2789
>> (888) 624-3841 (Hotline)
>> President at nagdu.org
>> http://www.nagdu.org
>>
>> High expectations create unlimited potential for the blind!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Renee
>> Walker via nagdu
>> Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2015 1:59 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Customer satisfaction & Supposed Facts about
>> SEGDI
>>
>> Hi,
>> I just received my second guide from Southeastern Guide Dogs, Inc.
>> (SEGDI). I was also a puppy raiser starting back in the mid-90b?Ts
>> until 2007. I must disagree with some statements made about ownership
>> and retirement policies at SEGDI. I am DeafBlind, so I received the
>> contract a few days before I signed the contract in order to read it
>> carefully at my own pace in braille. My sighted husband also read a
>> printed copy. We got out the first contract from my first guide and
>> compared it to see if there were changes. I also re-read the contract
>> today in order to properly make this post. Let me briefly summarize
>> what is actually in a SEGDI contract which is the transfer of ownership
> agreement.
>> 1. You are being given ownership of the guide dog without any cost
>> with subject to terms and agreements within the document.
>> 2. Continued support- Graduate agrees to contact Graduate Services if
>> any help is needed for support and follow-up care. (In addition, they
>> do have a written plan of follow-up care now that is more involved
>> than when I graduated 10 years ago with my first dog. They were
>> smaller then and follow-up care was provided to all who asked for it
>> as often as needed by phone, email, home visits, or campus-continued
>> training as a last resort, so that stretched their small staff, so a
>> lot wasnb?Tt done toward SEGDI reaching out other than emails and
>> surveys. Now they have grown and donor funding as increased, so
>> follow-up is one of  the areas they are beefing up, but they are
>> always just a phone call or email or text away if you need something.
>> I only needed them once before, but they were spot on immediately when
>> I did and sent emails periodically to check in on me before. Now, they
>> will do the reaching out regularly and more often specifically rather
>> than waiting on you, but it is still your responsibility to contact
>> them if you need them.) 3. Assistance in event of retirement- At the
>> retirement, the graduate is expected within reasonable measures to
>> identify appropriate placement for the dog at retirement. If the
>> graduate is unable to identify an appropriate home, SEGDI will assist,
>> within reasonable measures, with the placement. (I am keeping my
>> graduate, but others find relatives or friends. Still others need
>> SEGDI to reach out to their contacts for help finding a suitable
>> placement. NOTE: Age is not mentioned.) 4. Continued possession and
>> ownership: you canb?Tt sell, lend or donate the dog to another school
>> or similar organization or research facility or third party without
>> SEGDI agreeing.
>> 5.SEGDI can repossess the dog if abuse or negligence happens including
>> gaining too much weight or losing too much weight or if the team is
>> not working safely. They stipulate here that they will work with the
>> team as much as possible to correct unsafe practices prior to removal.
>> (Removal is always a last resort or when necessary for the safety of
>> the dog.) 6. The harness is the only thing that doesnb?Tt belong to
>> you. You agree to give it back when the dog retires or if the dog is
>> repossessed for the reasons listed in the agreement.
>> 7. You are responsible for the dogb?Ts behavior, food, medical, proper
>> shelter, general care, in practice and financially.
>> 8. If you become incapacitated, die, or become ineligible (regain
>> vision to limits above what is required) and the dog is less than 5
>> years old, you agree that SEGDI can evaluate the dog to see if they
>> can be used as a guide elsewhere, and regardless of age recommends
>> having a written  care plan in place to provide for the dogb?Ts care.
>> (I personally think this should be for any pet.)
>>
>> Thatb?Ts basically it. The contract is a bit wordier, but I lumped
>> things together in categories.
>>
>> My experience with SEGDI is that yes, the dog is yours in all
>> respects, but for the dogb?Ts safety which I WANT, they have set up
>> circumstances where they can take the dog back if necessary, but only
>> after they have tried to help the graduate team to work together well,
>> safely, and happily. I know this effort to be true in a few cases. I
>> donb?Tt want an organization that looks at these dogs a mere tools or
>> things even if the law describes them as tools for legality sake. I
>> want an organization that cares about its dogs' health and well-being
>> from start to finish. SEGDI does and shows it. They also care about
>> their blind and deafblind consumers and want the team to work well
>> together being safe and happy from start to finish. The agreement supports
> that.
>> Retirement is not specified because SEGDI has always and continues to
>> do that on a case by case scenario because dogs are different, working
>> environments are different, and home environments are different. As a
>> general rule, they start at 9 or 10 educating you of signs to look for
>> in your guide that may signal the dog may be getting ready to retire.
>> At 10, they want to meet with you and evaluate things. At 11, they
>> meet with you again. At 12, if still working, they will meet with you
>> again. These meetings are discussion. They are not about forcing you
>> to agree to retire your dog at all. Of course, if it is obvious that a
>> guide is being forced to work while in pain or very unhappily, SEGDI
>> would take more immediate or firm action, but I doubt that happens
>> often because most handlers love their dogs well. SEGDI knew that it
>> was difficult for both me and my guide to discuss retirement. Yes,
>> even my guide showed he wanted to work and be with me, but you have to
>> recognize when it is best for the dog because they will sometimes work
>> themselves to death because they love you so much. Again, though, I
>> stress, it is discussing and coming to a decision together on what is
>> best for both of you, but especially the dog. I know one team near me
>> that I have known for 15 years even before I lost much of my vision
>> that worked until the dog was about 13. That is unusual, but the dog
>> was an active, healthy viszla who was in a comfortable working and
>> home setting. The dog recently died at 15 after enjoying a couple of
>> fun and relaxing years with his blind handler as a pet. SEGDI takes
>> the situation case by case, but yeah 11 years old might be a good rule
>> of thumb to use as a retirement age. Some may need to retire before 10
>> even if they just lose interest and arenb?Tt happy anymore. My dog is
>> almost 12 and we just retired him. He still wants to go, but I want
>> him to relax and enjoy life some. He still has a couple of places that let
> him go as a pet, so it works for us and him.
>> I love SEGDI. Are they perfect? Probably not, but I have worked on
>> both sides now. I love how they do things. I love how they are always
>> looking at themselves as objectively as they can and work to keep what
>> works and fix what doesnb?Tt. They do it all based on private
>> donations only which hasnb?Tt always been a lot because the bigger,
>> older, more famous schools tend to get most of the attention. They donb?Tt
> bash other schools at all.
>> They recognize the need for many schools with even different methods
>> as long as they are humane and about putting out safe and happy
>> working teams.
>>
>> I personally have worked with another couple of schools not by getting
>> a dog, but as further consultation when at Helen Keller National
>> Center for the DeafBlind. I donb?Tt always agree with how they do
>> things. I have seen some teams that really shouldnb?Tt be working
>> because they arenb?Tt safe, but they are. That said. I realize that
>> these methods are different and probably work fine and the unsafe
>> teams were isolated events, not the norm; so I wonb?Tt call out names,
>> and I wonb?Tt say a school shouldnb?Tt be considered. Consider all of
>> the schools. Choose the one that fits your situation and needs. I do
>> recommend SEGDI because I have seen the good work and the good results
>> and the willingness to learn from mistakes or less than perfect
>> results. That is what makes a good school and happy, healthy, safe teams.
>>
>> Professionalism and respect is what SEGDI gives and what I try to
>> give. I also expect that same thing from others on this list. Ib?Tm
>> new, so Ib?Tm assuming that these posts of misinformation were
>> unintentional borne out of concern for blind partners and dog guides.
>> It probably came from listening to someone explain what was done for
>> their specific situation, but mistaken as being a statement of actual
>> SEGDI policy when it isnb?Tt the case. SEGDI has good policies, but
>> they also have as part of their good methods the idea of looking at
>> each case individually when choosing to accept a blind consumer to
>> matching to training to graduating to following up to retirement.
>> Doing what is best for each individual team is the main concern. Ib?Tm
>> sure it was unintentional, so I suggest we keep statements about
>> schools we donb?Tt know about to being questions for confirmation by
>> those who have been there rather than supposed statements of facts.
>> All schools have some negatives. All schools have a lot of positives.
>> Letb?Ts remember that. I am sure I wonb?Tt second guess my decision to
> participate here.
>> Sorry this was so long.
>>
>> In The Shadow of The Master Teacher, Jesus Christ, RenC)e K. Walker, Ed.S.
>> Principal/CEO
>> Wynfield Christian Academy
>> DeafBlind Hope
>> 143 Williamson Dr.
>> Macon, GA 31210
>> Monroe County
>> (978) 563-9663
>> Fax: Email documents to rkwalker at wynfieldca.org or mail
>> (478) 845-2294 (Deaf IP Relay direct line)
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Mar 26, 2015, at 11:09 AM, S L Johnson via nagdu
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Maybe they think it is in the best interest of both the person and
>>> the dog to retire by age eleven.  I've certainly heard trainers
>>> complain about people who continue to work older dogs who should have
>>> been allowed to retire.  I've also heard from some veterinarians who
>>> get quite upset with clients who are still working dogs past age ten.
>>> Many people feel that an older dog deserves to just relax and enjoy
>>> life when they are that old.  I personally would not continue to work
>>> an older dog.  That dog has given me many years of dedicated service
>>> and deserves some rest and relaxation in their old age.  We have to
>>> quit thinking of ourselves and think of the health and wellbeing of
>>> an older dog.  Many people criticized me for retiring my
>>> eight-year-old Tara due to hip dysplasia.  Some people told me to
>>> give her stronger pain pills so she could keep working.  It was the
>>> opinion of myself and my vet that it would be cruel to continue working
> her.
>>> I know there are differing opinions about retirement age and it is
>>> always a tough decision.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Marion Gwizdala via nagdu
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2015 7:21 AM
>>> To: helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com <mailto:helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com>
>>> ; 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Customer satisfaction
>>>
>>> Though Southeastern claims to give full ownership upon completion of
>>> training, they also now require their consumers to retire their dogs
>>> by the age of 11. So, you tell me, if you own your dog, how can they
>>> have a mandatory retirement age? I asked that question during the
>>> Florida Association of Guide dog Users meeting in January and got no
>>> answer.
>>>
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>
>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
>>> National Federation of the Blind
>>> (813) 626-2789
>>> (888) 624-3841 (Hotline)
>>> President at nagdu.org
>>> http://www.nagdu.org
>>>
>>> High expectations create unlimited potential for the blind!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Helga via
>>> nagdu
>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2015 6:38 PM
>>> To: Debby Phillips; Tracy Carcione; nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Customer satisfaction
>>>
>>> Hi Ms. Debby. How are you? I just wanted to ask you, have you
>>> consider in applying to Southeastern Guide Dog school? Just
>>> wondering. This school is located in Tampa Florida, but I think they
>>> also give you ownership of your dog! I'm not so sure about though. If
>>> someone knows, feel free to correct me ok?  I'm considering in
>>> applying over there this July! However, I don't know you have heard
>>> of the policy that they have,I'm actually aginst it  a little bit,
>>> but the reason I'm considering in applying over there is because I
>>> live in Florida. Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God
> bless!
>>>
>>>
>>> Helga Schreiber
>>>
>>> Fundraiser Coordinator for Phi Theta Kappa, Alpha Delta Iota chapter
>>> Member of National Federation of the Blind and Florida Association of
>>> Blind Students Member of The International Networkers Team (INT)
>>> Independent Entrepreneur of the Company 4Life Research
>>>
>>> Phone: (561) 706-5950
>>> Email: helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com
>>> Skype: helga.schreiber26
>>> 4Life Website: http://helgaschreiber.my4life.com/1/default.aspx
>>> INT Website: http://int4life.com/
>>>
>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that
>>> whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John
>>> 3:16 -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Debby Phillips via nagdu
>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2015 5:17 PM
>>> To: Tracy Carcione ; NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of
>>> Guide Dog Users ; nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Customer satisfaction
>>>
>>> I hope not, Tracy but it may have to be that.  This is so hard for me
>>> as I've been getting my dogs from TSE since 1981.  And if I end up
>>> going to GDB, I'll have to eat crow, too.  (Grin).  But I don't know
>>> what to do.  In the meantime, my application is in at TSE, and I have
>>> to decide if I'm going to apply elsewhere where that would be.  There
>>> are things I like about GEB, but I know their waiting list is long,
>>> too.  Leader has a fairly short wait time once you get accepted,
>>> which can take 30 to 60 days.  I like GDA but for are fairly small,
>>> and I think their wait times might be pretty long, too.  I just can't
>>> make myself go to Pilot.
>>> As much as I am trying to stop being close-minded about that school,
>>> I just can't quite make that leap.  There is Fidelco, but I have a
>>> hard time seeing me with a shepherd.  And then there's Guide Dog
>>> Foundation.  I really like Jenine Stanley and have heard good things
>>> about that school too, but I'm also hearing rumblings about how
>>> "corporate" they're becoming.  I need the wisdom of Solomon.  And
>>> anybody else in this process does too.
>>> Peace,    Debby
>>>
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