[nagdu] Customer satisfaction & Supposed Facts about SEGDI

Sat Mar 28 20:34:28 UTC 2015

Marion,
I'm not getting this attachment.
Donna

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Marion Gwizdala
via nagdu
Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2015 4:04 PM
To: 'S L Johnson'; 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide
Dog Users'
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Customer satisfaction & Supposed Facts about SEGDI

Sandra,

	As for your question about whether or not we will ever get full
ownership upon completion of training, we are already there. Freedom Guide
dogs, Guide Dogs of America, the Guide Dog Foundation, and The Seeing Eye
all have policies transferring ownership upon completion of training. I
would no longer say that Southeastern trasnfers ownership, as ownership and
mandatory retirement are incongruent with each other.

Marion Gwizdala

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of S L Johnson via
nagdu
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 11:03 AM
To: Sheila Leigland; NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide
Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Customer satisfaction & Supposed Facts about SEGDI

    Hello:

That sounds like the perfect solution if it would work but, it doesn't.
The problem is that law enforcement doesn't act and the guide dog schools
know it.  In my dealings with local animal control and city police, I found
them unwilling to take any action because they were reluctant to take a dog
away from a disabled person.  Maybe the way to approach this is to better
educate law enforcement about what is considered proper behavior for service
dogs and the rights and responsibilities of the disabled dog handler.  I
know in my case, law enforcement had no clue about the ADA and the fact they
could step in and take action to remove a dog who was disruptive or a danger
to people and other service dogs.  It is a fact that most law enforcement
officers are afraid to have a dog taken away from that poor disabled person.

Officers told me, they were afraid of being sued for discrimination if they
took action against a disabled person.  With this in mind, it is no wonder
the schools have made provisions in their contracts to ensure the safety of
their dogs.  I'm not saying It is right, it is just reality.  I totally
approve of complete ownership with no strings attached but, under the above
circumstances, will we ever get it?

Sandra and Eva

-----Original Message-----
From: Sheila Leigland via nagdu
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 10:38 AM
To: Marion Gwizdala ; NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide
Dog Users
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Customer satisfaction & Supposed Facts about SEGDI

Marion I'm in agreement with you. When I was in new york there was a removal
of a guide dog and it really scared me. I was concerned that if someone
didn't like my handling of Tres they might try to see that he was taken from
me.  I watched Tres so carefully that I had a hard time relaxing and just
working with him. I don't react well even to lell meant assistance or
comments especially those not asked for because of this. Tres is well
treated and praised  but seeing a dog removed upset me. fortunately it
happened just a couple of weeks before I left to come home.

On 3/27/2015 6:11 AM, Marion Gwizdala via nagdu wrote:
> Sandra,
>
> I agree that there are those who should not have dogs; however, I also
> believe that the culture of training programs exacerbate the issue by
> putting themselves in an authoritative, paternalistic  position that
> discourages consumers from seeking assistance before the issue becomes
> unmanageable. As long as training programs continue to maintain
> probationary periods and impose conditions upon ownership, there will
> be those who will fear the program will unjustly remove their dogs and
> will not seek the guidance they need to resolve concerns before they
> become unmanageable.
>
> Of course, there will always be those who act irresponsibly and, for
> these handlers, there are community enforcement agencies that can deal
> with issues of abuse or neglect. It should not be the role of the
> training program to be the policing agency. This needs to be left to
> those the community has empowered with policing, such as law
> enforcement and animal services. JMHO!
>
> Fraternally yours,
>
> Marion Gwizdala, President
> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
> National Federation of the Blind
> (813) 626-2789
> (888) 624-3841 (Hotline)
> President at nagdu.org
> http://www.nagdu.org
>
> High expectations create unlimited potential for the blind!
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of S L Johnson
> via nagdu
> Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2015 5:50 PM
> To: Tai Blas; NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide
> Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Customer satisfaction & Supposed Facts about
> SEGDI
>
> Hello:
>
> I think it is an issue of some irresponsible guide dog handlers making
> it bad for all of us.  The schools find themselves in situations where
> there is obvious neglect or abuse.  The result is that they feel they
> need to have their contracts allow them to intervene.  I'm not saying
> it is right but, it is a fact.  Sometimes there is a person who should
> not be working that dog any longer.  Once at a Lions Club function I
> encountered a dog that was at least twenty pounds overweight and very
> out of control.  That is a case where the school should have the right
> to take that dog.  I once reported a man who let his dog jump onto the
> meat counters in stores and let him be out of control.  It was so bad
> that the store was afraid to let other dogs come in.  There was also
> overwhelming evidence of abuse.  Everyone in the community was
> extremely pleased when the school took that dog back.  The very
> aggressive dog that kept attacking my dog should have been taken back
> to the school.  If a team is found to be unsafe, that dog should be
> taken away.  If someone insists on working an older dog way past when
> it should have been retired, then the school should have the right to
> insist that graduate retire their dog.  I think anything over eleven
> is extremely cruel for the dog.  I would never consider doing that.
> It is people who do not consider the welfare of their dogs that cause
> the schools to make these rules.  If the schools can't trust the
> handlers to be responsible, then someone has to look out for the
> innocent dogs.
>
> Sandra and Eva
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tai Blas via nagdu
> Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2015 4:38 PM
> To: Marion Gwizdala ; NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of
> Guide Dog Users
> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Customer satisfaction & Supposed Facts about
> SEGDI
>
> If a school includes a provision allowing it to repossess a dog guide,
> then that school is not providing full and unconditional ownership. I
> am tired of this deception. Either you provide full ownership or you
> do not.
>
>
>
> Tai Tomasi, J.D., M.P.A
> Email: tai.tomasi8 at gmail.com
> Sent from my iPhone. Please excuse my brevity and any grammatical errors.
>
>> On Mar 26, 2015, at 3:29 PM, Marion Gwizdala via nagdu
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Rene,
>>
>>     Let me first begin by saying that I would not post something to
>> this list about a guide dog training program that I do not know to be
>> true and verifiable and I object to the insinuation that I would. I
>> concede that you may not have the most current information; however,
>> before casting aspersions, it would be good to check out the facts
>> before asserting another is incorrect. The information I shared was
>> presented at the annual meeting of the Florida Association of Guide
>> Dog Users I attended on Sunday, January 18, 2015 by an official
>> representative of Southeastern Guide Dogs. I have asked Sherrill
>> O'Brien, FLAGDU's president to share with the list the name of the
>> person who made the presentation and shared the information. If you
>> doubt our veracity, perhaps you should give SEGDI a call at
>> 941-729-5665
> and ask them for yourself.
>> Fraternally yours,
>>
>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
>> National Federation of the Blind
>> (813) 626-2789
>> (888) 624-3841 (Hotline)
>> President at nagdu.org
>> http://www.nagdu.org
>>
>> High expectations create unlimited potential for the blind!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Renee
>> Walker via nagdu
>> Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2015 1:59 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Customer satisfaction & Supposed Facts about
>> SEGDI
>>
>> Hi,
>> I just received my second guide from Southeastern Guide Dogs, Inc.
>> (SEGDI). I was also a puppy raiser starting back in the mid-90b?Ts
>> until 2007. I must disagree with some statements made about ownership
>> and retirement policies at SEGDI. I am DeafBlind, so I received the
>> contract a few days before I signed the contract in order to read it
>> carefully at my own pace in braille. My sighted husband also read a
>> printed copy. We got out the first contract from my first guide and
>> compared it to see if there were changes. I also re-read the contract
>> today in order to properly make this post. Let me briefly summarize
>> what is actually in a SEGDI contract which is the transfer of
>> ownership
> agreement.
>> 1. You are being given ownership of the guide dog without any cost
>> with subject to terms and agreements within the document.
>> 2. Continued support- Graduate agrees to contact Graduate Services if
>> any help is needed for support and follow-up care. (In addition, they
>> do have a written plan of follow-up care now that is more involved
>> than when I graduated 10 years ago with my first dog. They were
>> smaller then and follow-up care was provided to all who asked for it
>> as often as needed by phone, email, home visits, or campus-continued
>> training as a last resort, so that stretched their small staff, so a
>> lot wasnb?Tt done toward SEGDI reaching out other than emails and
>> surveys. Now they have grown and donor funding as increased, so
>> follow-up is one of  the areas they are beefing up, but they are
>> always just a phone call or email or text away if you need something.
>> I only needed them once before, but they were spot on immediately
>> when I did and sent emails periodically to check in on me before.
>> Now, they will do the reaching out regularly and more often
>> specifically rather than waiting on you, but it is still your
>> responsibility to contact them if you need them.) 3. Assistance in
>> event of retirement- At the retirement, the graduate is expected
>> within reasonable measures to identify appropriate placement for the
>> dog at retirement. If the graduate is unable to identify an
>> appropriate home, SEGDI will assist, within reasonable measures, with
>> the placement. (I am keeping my graduate, but others find relatives
>> or friends. Still others need SEGDI to reach out to their contacts
>> for help finding a suitable placement. NOTE: Age is not mentioned.)
>> 4. Continued possession and
>> ownership: you canb?Tt sell, lend or donate the dog to another school
>> or similar organization or research facility or third party without
>> SEGDI agreeing.
>> 5.SEGDI can repossess the dog if abuse or negligence happens
>> including gaining too much weight or losing too much weight or if the
>> team is not working safely. They stipulate here that they will work
>> with the team as much as possible to correct unsafe practices prior
>> to
removal.
>> (Removal is always a last resort or when necessary for the safety of
>> the dog.) 6. The harness is the only thing that doesnb?Tt belong to
>> you. You agree to give it back when the dog retires or if the dog is
>> repossessed for the reasons listed in the agreement.
>> 7. You are responsible for the dogb?Ts behavior, food, medical,
>> proper shelter, general care, in practice and financially.
>> 8. If you become incapacitated, die, or become ineligible (regain
>> vision to limits above what is required) and the dog is less than 5
>> years old, you agree that SEGDI can evaluate the dog to see if they
>> can be used as a guide elsewhere, and regardless of age recommends
>> having a written  care plan in place to provide for the dogb?Ts care.
>> (I personally think this should be for any pet.)
>>
>> Thatb?Ts basically it. The contract is a bit wordier, but I lumped
>> things together in categories.
>>
>> My experience with SEGDI is that yes, the dog is yours in all
>> respects, but for the dogb?Ts safety which I WANT, they have set up
>> circumstances where they can take the dog back if necessary, but only
>> after they have tried to help the graduate team to work together
>> well, safely, and happily. I know this effort to be true in a few
>> cases. I donb?Tt want an organization that looks at these dogs a mere
>> tools or things even if the law describes them as tools for legality
>> sake. I want an organization that cares about its dogs' health and
>> well-being from start to finish. SEGDI does and shows it. They also
>> care about their blind and deafblind consumers and want the team to
>> work well together being safe and happy from start to finish. The
>> agreement supports
> that.
>> Retirement is not specified because SEGDI has always and continues to
>> do that on a case by case scenario because dogs are different,
>> working environments are different, and home environments are
>> different. As a general rule, they start at 9 or 10 educating you of
>> signs to look for in your guide that may signal the dog may be
>> getting
ready to retire.
>> At 10, they want to meet with you and evaluate things. At 11, they
>> meet with you again. At 12, if still working, they will meet with you
>> again. These meetings are discussion. They are not about forcing you
>> to agree to retire your dog at all. Of course, if it is obvious that
>> a guide is being forced to work while in pain or very unhappily,
>> SEGDI would take more immediate or firm action, but I doubt that
>> happens often because most handlers love their dogs well. SEGDI knew
>> that it was difficult for both me and my guide to discuss retirement.
>> Yes, even my guide showed he wanted to work and be with me, but you
>> have to recognize when it is best for the dog because they will
>> sometimes work themselves to death because they love you so much.
>> Again, though, I stress, it is discussing and coming to a decision
>> together on what is best for both of you, but especially the dog. I
>> know one team near me that I have known for 15 years even before I
>> lost much of my vision that worked until the dog was about 13. That
>> is unusual, but the dog was an active, healthy viszla who was in a
>> comfortable working and home setting. The dog recently died at 15
>> after enjoying a couple of fun and relaxing years with his blind
>> handler as a pet. SEGDI takes the situation case by case, but yeah 11
>> years old might be a good rule of thumb to use as a retirement age.
>> Some may need to retire before 10 even if they just lose interest and
>> arenb?Tt happy anymore. My dog is almost 12 and we just retired him.
>> He still wants to go, but I want him to relax and enjoy life some. He
>> still has a couple of places that let
> him go as a pet, so it works for us and him.
>> I love SEGDI. Are they perfect? Probably not, but I have worked on
>> both sides now. I love how they do things. I love how they are always
>> looking at themselves as objectively as they can and work to keep
>> what works and fix what doesnb?Tt. They do it all based on private
>> donations only which hasnb?Tt always been a lot because the bigger,
>> older, more famous schools tend to get most of the attention. They
>> donb?Tt
> bash other schools at all.
>> They recognize the need for many schools with even different methods
>> as long as they are humane and about putting out safe and happy
>> working teams.
>>
>> I personally have worked with another couple of schools not by
>> getting a dog, but as further consultation when at Helen Keller
>> National Center for the DeafBlind. I donb?Tt always agree with how
>> they do things. I have seen some teams that really shouldnb?Tt be
>> working because they arenb?Tt safe, but they are. That said. I
>> realize that these methods are different and probably work fine and
>> the unsafe teams were isolated events, not the norm; so I wonb?Tt
>> call out names, and I wonb?Tt say a school shouldnb?Tt be considered.
>> Consider all of the schools. Choose the one that fits your situation
>> and needs. I do recommend SEGDI because I have seen the good work and
>> the good results and the willingness to learn from mistakes or less
>> than perfect results. That is what makes a good school and happy,
healthy, safe teams.
>>
>> Professionalism and respect is what SEGDI gives and what I try to
>> give. I also expect that same thing from others on this list. Ib?Tm
>> new, so Ib?Tm assuming that these posts of misinformation were
>> unintentional borne out of concern for blind partners and dog guides.
>> It probably came from listening to someone explain what was done for
>> their specific situation, but mistaken as being a statement of actual
>> SEGDI policy when it isnb?Tt the case. SEGDI has good policies, but
>> they also have as part of their good methods the idea of looking at
>> each case individually when choosing to accept a blind consumer to
>> matching to training to graduating to following up to retirement.
>> Doing what is best for each individual team is the main concern.
>> Ib?Tm sure it was unintentional, so I suggest we keep statements
>> about schools we donb?Tt know about to being questions for
>> confirmation by those who have been there rather than supposed
>> statements
of facts.
>> All schools have some negatives. All schools have a lot of positives.
>> Letb?Ts remember that. I am sure I wonb?Tt second guess my decision
>> to
> participate here.
>> Sorry this was so long.
>>
>> In The Shadow of The Master Teacher, Jesus Christ, RenC)e K. Walker,
>> Ed.S.
>> Principal/CEO
>> Wynfield Christian Academy
>> DeafBlind Hope
>> 143 Williamson Dr.
>> Macon, GA 31210
>> Monroe County
>> (978) 563-9663
>> Fax: Email documents to rkwalker at wynfieldca.org or mail
>> (478) 845-2294 (Deaf IP Relay direct line)
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Mar 26, 2015, at 11:09 AM, S L Johnson via nagdu
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Maybe they think it is in the best interest of both the person and
>>> the dog to retire by age eleven.  I've certainly heard trainers
>>> complain about people who continue to work older dogs who should
>>> have been allowed to retire.  I've also heard from some
>>> veterinarians who get quite upset with clients who are still working
dogs past age ten.
>>> Many people feel that an older dog deserves to just relax and enjoy
>>> life when they are that old.  I personally would not continue to
>>> work an older dog.  That dog has given me many years of dedicated
>>> service and deserves some rest and relaxation in their old age.  We
>>> have to quit thinking of ourselves and think of the health and
>>> wellbeing of an older dog.  Many people criticized me for retiring
>>> my eight-year-old Tara due to hip dysplasia.  Some people told me to
>>> give her stronger pain pills so she could keep working.  It was the
>>> opinion of myself and my vet that it would be cruel to continue
>>> working
> her.
>>> I know there are differing opinions about retirement age and it is
>>> always a tough decision.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Marion Gwizdala via nagdu
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2015 7:21 AM
>>> To: helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com <mailto:helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com>
>>> ; 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Customer satisfaction
>>>
>>> Though Southeastern claims to give full ownership upon completion of
>>> training, they also now require their consumers to retire their dogs
>>> by the age of 11. So, you tell me, if you own your dog, how can they
>>> have a mandatory retirement age? I asked that question during the
>>> Florida Association of Guide dog Users meeting in January and got no
>>> answer.
>>>
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>
>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
>>> National Federation of the Blind
>>> (813) 626-2789
>>> (888) 624-3841 (Hotline)
>>> President at nagdu.org
>>> http://www.nagdu.org
>>>
>>> High expectations create unlimited potential for the blind!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Helga via
>>> nagdu
>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2015 6:38 PM
>>> To: Debby Phillips; Tracy Carcione; nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Customer satisfaction
>>>
>>> Hi Ms. Debby. How are you? I just wanted to ask you, have you
>>> consider in applying to Southeastern Guide Dog school? Just
>>> wondering. This school is located in Tampa Florida, but I think they
>>> also give you ownership of your dog! I'm not so sure about though.
>>> If someone knows, feel free to correct me ok?  I'm considering in
>>> applying over there this July! However, I don't know you have heard
>>> of the policy that they have,I'm actually aginst it  a little bit,
>>> but the reason I'm considering in applying over there is because I
>>> live in Florida. Hope to hear from you soon. Thanks so much and God
> bless!
>>>
>>>
>>> Helga Schreiber
>>>
>>> Fundraiser Coordinator for Phi Theta Kappa, Alpha Delta Iota chapter
>>> Member of National Federation of the Blind and Florida Association
>>> of Blind Students Member of The International Networkers Team (INT)
>>> Independent Entrepreneur of the Company 4Life Research
>>>
>>> Phone: (561) 706-5950
>>> Email: helga.schreiber26 at gmail.com
>>> Skype: helga.schreiber26
>>> 4Life Website: http://helgaschreiber.my4life.com/1/default.aspx
>>> INT Website: http://int4life.com/
>>>
>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that
>>> whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
>>> John
>>> 3:16 -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Debby Phillips via nagdu
>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2015 5:17 PM
>>> To: Tracy Carcione ; NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of
>>> Guide Dog Users ; nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Customer satisfaction
>>>
>>> I hope not, Tracy but it may have to be that.  This is so hard for
>>> me as I've been getting my dogs from TSE since 1981.  And if I end
>>> up going to GDB, I'll have to eat crow, too.  (Grin).  But I don't
>>> know what to do.  In the meantime, my application is in at TSE, and
>>> I have to decide if I'm going to apply elsewhere where that would
>>> be.  There are things I like about GEB, but I know their waiting
>>> list is long, too.  Leader has a fairly short wait time once you get
>>> accepted, which can take 30 to 60 days.  I like GDA but for are
>>> fairly small, and I think their wait times might be pretty long,
>>> too.  I just can't make myself go to Pilot.
>>> As much as I am trying to stop being close-minded about that school,
>>> I just can't quite make that leap.  There is Fidelco, but I have a
>>> hard time seeing me with a shepherd.  And then there's Guide Dog
>>> Foundation.  I really like Jenine Stanley and have heard good things
>>> about that school too, but I'm also hearing rumblings about how
>>> "corporate" they're becoming.  I need the wisdom of Solomon.  And
>>> anybody else in this process does too.
>>> Peace,    Debby
>>>
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