[nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers

Thu Sep 3 00:19:20 UTC 2015

I think we all would like to hear what the centers have to say. 

Best Regards,

Michael Hingson

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of larry d keeler
via nagdu
Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2015 5:05 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: larry d keeler <lkeeler at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers

Raven, keep us or at least me up to date! I really would like to know! I
would be curious what they say and how they treat the subject. 

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Raven Tolliver
via nagdu
Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2015 7:54 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Raven Tolliver
Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers

Michael,
We're not going in circles. Rather than continuing to solely present
arguments, I asked some hard questions that are within reason for the
opposing side to ponder and answer. This is not just a matter of
disagreement, but a lack of understanding. I would like to gain insight into
why my opponents believe as they do.
If no one has answers to my questions, there's nothing wrong with saying I
don't know. There is something wrong with battling other organizations for
their discriminatory practices, but turning a blind eye to discrimination
within the NFB.

I will do exactly as you have suggested and attempt to contact the directors
of all 3 training centers, and see where I get. I will also take notes on
the conversations and post them here. This is a very serious matter to me,
and is heart-breaking. I don't support discrimination of any kind, and I
will not make any excuse against doing what I can to prevent others from
facing discrimination.

Thanks Debby, Mike F, and others for your support. This is not something to
sweep under the rug and hide from. This is something that should be
addressed and pushed to the forefront just like discrimination cases with
Uber, Lyft, and other public establishments.
Some people just take what they can get, and will settle or compromise. As
blind people, we are often expected to do so. Just be grateful for what you
can get. No one is obligated to provide x product or service to you. I don't
agree with that way of thinking. If things can be better, then we should try
to make them better. There's always worse, but there's always better as
well.

On 9/2/15, Michael Forzano via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> I don't think it's a matter of opinion whether or not the centers are 
> discriminating. It seems pretty cut and dry to me. A guide dog user 
> cannot attend one of the centers without risking their dog having to 
> be retired, which, at least in my case, makes a center not an option 
> if I needed independence training. Saying that guide dog users should 
> just go somewhere else is discrimination. There's a reason the centers 
> are so highly recommended, most other, non-NFB centers (at least the 
> ones I know of) do not provide adequate training on how to live truly 
> independently. It's super frustrating to me that other guide dog users 
> and specifically the leaders of NAGDU do not understand this. Raven 
> asked a lot of great questions, and I think they deserve to be 
> answered. I don't think one of us having a discussion with a center 
> director would be very productive. This seems like an issue we should 
> be tackling as an organization.
>
> Mike
>
> On 9/2/15, Michael Hingson via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Debby,
>>
>> I am not a moderator, but simply suggesting that I am hearing 
>> comments becoming more strident. We also are beginning to go around 
>> in circles which is not helpful. I am sure that people on this list 
>> have communicated the thread to center staff. What is continued 
>> discussion here going to accomplish?
>>
>> There have been some good suggestions made on the list. Why not 
>> consider having a conversation with a center director and report back 
>> to us the results.
>>
>> I tell you absolutely that my suggestion to cut off discussion would 
>> occur whether or not the discussion was about the NFB centers. Do NOT 
>> read into my words. I simply note that the discussion is getting 
>> testy. I suggested that we cease for the moment before the moderators 
>> do so.
>>
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>>
>> Michael Hingson
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Debby 
>> Phillips via nagdu
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 02, 2015 5:32 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users 
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>; nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> Cc: Debby Phillips <semisweetdebby at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [nagdu] Guides at NFB training centers
>>
>> First of all, I do know that some people have chosen to leave Centers 
>> because their dogs couldn't handle the long absence of their person.
>> And some dogs have had to be retired because of it.  So it does 
>> happen.  But I also wonder why the moderators want to limit the 
>> discussion about this.
>> Is
>> it because we are talking about NFB Centers? If we were talking about 
>> other Centous, I would bet that there would not be a call to limit or 
>> stop this discussion.  I think it's worth discussing.  Many of the 
>> same skills are necessary whether you use a dog or a cane.
>> Getting lined up correctly at street crossings; listening to make 
>> sure that you and the dog aren't veering.  (Which happens, even with 
>> the best of dogs).  It is still important to know how to judge 
>> traffic.  That can certainly be learned using a dog as well as a 
>> cane.  The way I hear people talk about canes sometimes is that 
>> they're magic wands.  If I learn to use a cane and do it well, then 
>> somehow I've arrived.  We as dog users know that that's bunk.  Sure 
>> it's good to have good cane skills.  And yes, practicing using your 
>> cane sometimes is a good idea.  An excellent idea.  Sure our dogs 
>> give us subtle signals, but if we don't follow those signals well, 
>> then we are not being the best dog handlers we can be.  If Centers 
>> are going to be in the forefront, I think it is time to re-examine 
>> the dog guide issue and perhaps to make some changes that would make 
>> it possible for
>> people to do part of their travel training using a dog.    Debby
>> and Nova
>>
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--
Raven
Founder of 1AM Editing & Research
www.1am-editing.com

You are valuable because of your potential, not because of what you have or
what you do.

Naturally-reared guide dogs
https://groups.google.com/d/forum/nrguidedogs

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