[nagdu] NFB philosophy and guide dogs

Thu Sep 3 23:58:00 UTC 2015

Raven,

Actually what Julie said explains nothing insofar as our discussions are
concerned. She gave her opinion.

However, let's deal with your comments. You feel that people at the centers,
and perhaps elsewhere within the Federation, "look down on guide dogs" and
guide dog users. There is no evidence of this in general. As someone did
say, and rightly so, there are some very long-time members who look down on
guide dogs. The reasons for this would take much too long to explain here
and the reasons are no longer relevant. What is important is that you
continue to operate from the point of view that the centers discriminate and
are acting in some sort of inappropriate manner. Many of us here have
disagreed and asked for you to keep an open mind a bit more. I submit that
some of us have had MUCH more experience dealing with the subject than you.
We were here when the centers were formed. We have seen them grow and
develop. We also recognize their good points and their weaknesses.

There may well be better ways to include guide dogs at some level in center
activities, but there also may not be a better way. Discussing this and
moving to a better exploration of the problem is a good thing, but not if
those doing the exploring are not open to change. The centers have changed
over the years as I have stated. Perhaps they can change more, but changed
in the past they have.

Some here have tactfully suggested that you reconsider the kind of questions
you would ask if you take on the task of contacting centers. I now say that
you either go into this with more of an open mind or you will invariably
come away disappointed and angry. I know the directors of the three centers.
They are all people who do have an interest in making the centers the best
they can be for ALL blind people. If there are ways to do this to be more
inclusive of guide dog inclusion they would like to hear about it. HOWEVER,
they all do know more about what they are trying to accomplish and they have
a lot of historic references not shared readily by many on this list who
have argued back and forth about how the centers should operate. History
will show whether or not the centers are truly "discriminating" against
guide dog users. I for one do not think so. Might the centers do more to
accommodate guide dog users? Possibly, but as yet not a single person has
demonstrated that guide dog users who go to the centers and participate in
the programs as established come away worse for the effort. There is a long
track record of blind people, including guide dog users, who come away
emphatically stating that their travel skills are better.

So, please cut back on the provocative rhetoric and be part of the solution
a bit more and perhaps we can find common ground that will lead to better
programs and also lead to the kind of results you seek. Thanks for reading. 

Best Regards,

Michael Hingson

-----Original Message-----
From: nagdu [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Raven Tolliver
via nagdu
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2015 4:25 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Raven Tolliver <ravend729 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [nagdu] NFB philosophy and guide dogs

This explains everything. It would make sense as to why some NFB members and
the training centers look down on guide dog travelers, or at least look down
on using a guide dog as a mobility aid. The training centers are in place to
help blind people become more independent. If independence means relying
solely on your own faculties, or acting based on your own judgment according
to NFB philosophy, then the higher ups don't believe using a guide dog
provides independence, and they view guide dog travelers as people who are
not independent. It makes perfect sense.
They ban the use of guide dogs during classes because guide dogs prohibit
independence as they envision it. You can't teach a person depending on a
guide to be independent. So of course using a guide dog is a fundamentally
altering practice.

Here are my issues with this view in relation to the law:
1. This is a false technicality. Technically, I'm not lying because I didn't
skew the facts, I simply left out some details. Technically, I'm not blind
because I can still read print, see color, and make out shapes and images
for the most part. Technically, it's all-natural because it's made with
synthetic ingredients created by combining natural substances. Technically,
you didn't wash the clothes because you put them in a washing machine to
clean them.
Come on. This is like banning MiniGuides and talking GPS units and
applications because people who use those to aid in travel are not being
independent. Technically. And maybe the NFB centers actually ban those
technologies. I wouldn't know.
2. The fundamental beliefs about independence are discriminatory by nature.
By default, the beliefs and practices view a certain kind of people and
their lifestyle choice as inferior--less independent. Somebody already
pointed that out.
3. The fundamental alteration clause in the ADA is faulty.
The way fundamental alteration works, or is applied in this situation, I can
establish a university and ban service animals because students and
professors should have a learning environment free of distraction, and the
animals are distracting in class. Seems I could ban service animals just as
schools and places of employment across the nation have banned certain types
of dress, handheld devices, etc.

Before policy is even changed, we have to change how these folks define
independence. And the ADA needs revision. Oh, boy!
--
Raven
Founder of 1AM Editing & Research
www.1am-editing.com

You are valuable because of your potential, not because of what you have or
what you do.

Naturally-reared guide dogs
https://groups.google.com/d/forum/nrguidedogs

On 9/3/15, Julie McGinnity via nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> This is a spin-off of the guide dogs and training center discussion.
> I want to give you my take on NFB philosophy and guide dogs-how it 
> intersects and why it has been problematic in the past.  Keep in mind 
> that I am only 25 years old, so some of you may think I'm crazy.  My 
> suppositions are based on research, the perspectives of friends, as 
> well as my own experiences.
>
> When I joined the NFB five years ago, I was sold the first time I 
> walked into the convention hotel, and I never looked back.  The 
> speeches, the friends, and the progress all hooked me instantly.  But 
> it was NAGDU that encouraged me the most to join.  Here was a group of 
> people who were guide dog users, who knew their rights, and were proud 
> of it.  I am embarrassed to say that until I joined, I knew little 
> more than the basics of ADA not to mention the other laws that pertain 
> to guide dog use.
>
> I have never thought that NFB philosophy contradicted the use of a 
> guide dog.  Federationists believe that it is ok to be blind.  Low 
> expectations, misconceptions, and negative attitudes of the blind are 
> what hold us back.  Now our tagline states that we can live the lives 
> we want.
>
> These words are presented in a number of contexts.  At their core they 
> embody how we choose to live as people who just happen to be blind.  
> Part of living the lives we want is working with a guide dog, and part 
> of dealing with the misconceptions and negative attitudes of the 
> public is knowing our rights and standing firmly to uphold the law.  
> We have earned the right to work with our dogs, so we must also 
> shoulder the responsibility of combatting the public's attitudes, 
> disrespect, and disobedience of the law.  In other words, we do not 
> let these things hold us back.
>
> Let's look at another angle.  If we consider society's attitudes 
> towards guide dogs more closely, we may find some misconceptions that 
> are transfered from them to us (the blind).  How about the idea that 
> our dogs know where everything is and can simply take us there without 
> any navigation necessary on our part?  That relates to the idea that 
> our dogs take care of us.  How about the teachers and parents who 
> strongly encourage their young blind people to get a guide dog as soon 
> as possible?  Maybe that happens less now than it used to, but I still 
> hear about it.  It is as if the guide dog is the magical solution that 
> will solve that pesky blindness problem and normalize us.
>
> The most damning concept that contradicts the views many 
> federationists hold about blindness link the guide dog to 
> independence.  Guide dog schools, the public, and as a result the 
> blind tend to believe that guide dog users are more independent.  But 
> think about what I wrote above.  The blind are not more independent by 
> our own merit; no, the independence came to us upon transference of 
> that leash.  That dog by our side gives us the independence we 
> couldn't find anywhere else.  And that is the misconception that 
> directly opposes NFB philosophy.  The claim that our dogs are our 
> independence, make it ok for us to be blind, or are in any other way 
> elivated from the status of a tool (albeit a living, beloved tool) 
> damages the public's as well as our own perception of the blind.
>
> NFB philosophy does not mention one single tool or one narrow method 
> for living the lives we want.  But it does refer to societal attitudes 
> obstructing our paths.  Perhaps those attitudes have effected us as 
> well both personally and as an organization.  I think we should 
> examine them and prepare ourselves to deal with these issues if we 
> truly wish to experience the full use of our guide dogs at training 
> centers.
>
>
> --
> Julie McGinnity
> National Federation of the Blind of Missouri second vice president, 
> National Federation of the Blind performing arts division secretary, 
> Missouri Association of Guide dog Users President graduate, Guiding 
> Eyes for the Blind 2008, 2014 "For we walk by faith, not by sight"
> 2 Cor. 7
>
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