[NAGDU] NAGDU Re: guide dogs and unfamiliar routes
S L Johnson
SLJohnson25 at comcast.net
Tue Apr 19 22:32:40 UTC 2016
Hello Again:
As graduates of these schools what can we do to make them understand this is
not the way we use our dogs on a daily basis? All guide dogs should be able
to guide in unfamiliar places. As independent blind people, we do not stay
at home in our own little familiar areas. As they are training the dogs I
know all the schools have their familiar training routes but, they should
also give the dogs plenty of experience in unfamiliar areas. This will
allow the trainers to evaluate that dog to be sure it can handle the extra
stress of an unfamiliar area. I think more graduates must speak up and let
their schools know that we do not agree with these policies.
Sandra
-----Original Message-----
From: S L Johnson via NAGDU
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 6:13 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: S L Johnson
Subject: [NAGDU] {Spam?} Re: guide dogs and unfamiliar routes
Hi,
I find it appalling that this kind of thinking is coming from a guide dog
school. If the dogs are well trained, they should be able to handle
unfamiliar situations with confidence. That is what I was taught with my
first guide in 1976 and is still what I believe. I wonder why there is this
kind of thinking from some schools. It sure wasn't the case when I got any
of my dogs. I definitely would have had an argument with any trainer who
suggested me having to use a cane or sighted help in an unfamiliar area.
Not every blind person has sighted help around. I have never had it and
have never needed it either. Now we have lots of other tools we didn't have
even 20 years ago. We only had the Braille compass and then they came out
with the talking one. Now there are all kinds of GPS apps for smart phones
and note takers. Some schools offer training with the Trekker Breeze. I
would think the schools would be promoting more independence, not less. I
don't think many guide dogs would work well with a long cane swinging in
front of them. I know all of my dogs want to avoid them as much as possible
and treat them like an obstacle they must get around in order to keep us
safe. Did they make you use your canes with your dogs while on class?
Sandra
-----Original Message-----
From: Lisa Belville via NAGDU
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 12:58 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Lisa Belville
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] guide dogs and unfamiliar routes
Hi, Aleeha.
I got my dog from GDA nine months ago. I've heard the same thing about
using a cane when traveling in unfamiliar areas, not just once, but several
times and from more than one trainer.
The rationale they use is that caning it around in new surroundings will
allow me to learn the area well enough to direct the dog accurately, without
getting stressed out so the dog
won't get confused, overwhelmed, etc.
I think this is a total cop out. I agree this is in no way how we
should be directed if we have issues with our dog's work. It's just not a
realistic or efficient way of traveling.
I don't think it's isolated to my or your school, though. It seems like
schools are emphasizing non-dog ways to learn new areas. I heard something
similar from
the GDF when I got my second dog ten years ago, only they suggested getting
sighted help which IMO is worse than using a cane because at least with a
cane you're still the one finding things out on your own and presumably the
dog is present so there is a teamwork dynamic happening. that idea showed a
lack of expectation regarding the capability of the dog and it was just one
of the
many reasons why I decided to switch schools.
As someone said, this is hard enough to stomach when it's coming from an
uninformed Joe/Jane Q. Public, But it's even more frustrating when you hear
it from your school, doubly so when it seems to be their Go To response for
handling
questions about traveling in a new or challenging environment.
I'm not bashing either of our schools here, well, maybe just a bit <grin>,
I'm just saying that this automatic suggestion that we use our canes or
sighted people in unfamiliar areas is disturbing because it smacks of a huge
lack of understanding about how blind people travel and it implies that the
dog shouldn't be expected to do normal guiding tasks in a new environment.
It seems like it's all about not stressing the dog out rather than actually
using the dog as a highly skilled travel tool.
I don't travel out of my area that much, but my town is large enough that
there are always new places to explore. I like to be spontaneous during my
ramblings. I figure my brain, Paige's eyes and brain, along with my GPS and
a compass should be enough.
And, fair warning, unless you're an octopus capable of multitasking, using
effective cane technique while using a healing dog, and the GPS/compass
combo is stressful in itself. I've been
home with Paige for just over nine months. I've tried the cane, and I've
determined that Paige works best without it. First, she knows she's off the
clock even if she's healing while in harness. GDA doesn't use leash
guiding, so holding the leash while the harness is on means Paige doesn't
need to really do anything except default obedience, which she has always
done, thank Dog Secondly, Paige seems to see new places with a fresh eye, so
she seems more focused. Maybe it's because we haven't been home
long enough to create really bad habits LOL I don't know, but I've
completely scrapped the notion of using the cane with her because I think we
do better as a team without any additional input other than what I can gleem
from my surroundings with my senses, feet and GPS and the occasional highly
skilled sighted help.
To be sure, there will always be room in my tool box for my cane and
appropriate sighted help. But I don't expect to automatically need those
when traveling in an unfamiliar area with a dog, even a green dog. I get
that there are situations where using a cane to find something is quicker
then expecting the dog to target it on the first or second go around,
especially if it's in a place where there are several options and many
chances to get it wrong, so you need the dog to get it ASAP. But this isn't
a daily
occurance for most of us, and I don't think it's condusive to safe,
efficient travel.
The over all training I got with Paige was fabulous. Her memory is amazing,
her in harness and off leash manners and basic
obedience are far above those of either of my last dogs. Her work ethic is
excellent. I can show her something and give her massive amounts of praise
or a treat and she gets it and retains it without the need for me to keep
giving her treat rewards. Moreover, we weren't/aren't expected to provide
constant treat rewards. The trainers didn't treat us like children or
assume we were incapable of taking care of ourselves or our dogs and we got
complete, unconditional ownership when training was done. That's why this
idea of using a cane in new areas was such a shock to me. I know other
grads in my class expressed the same concerns. I've told my trainers how I
feel about this and how it seems to send a bad impression about what we
should expect from our dogs. Paige is my first dog from this school, so I
don't know if this is a philosophical issue they actively promote or if it
is one of those quirks some trainers have. I do
wish I'd known about this tendency before I trained with Paige. I'm not
saying it would have been a deal breaker, but I think it would have given me
some pause or at least made me ask more questions about this aspect of their
training.
Lisa
Lisa Belville
missktlab1217 at frontier.com
Never make the same mistake twice. There are so many new ones, try a
different one each day.
Lisa Belville
missktlab1217 at frontier.com
Never make the same mistake twice. There are so many new ones, try a
different one each day.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Aleeha Dudley via NAGDU" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: "Aleeha Dudley" <blindcowgirl1993 at gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 7:53 PM
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] guide dogs and unfamiliar routes
> They suggest I use a cane. But hereâ?Ts the thing. If the route is just
> going down sidewalks, crossing streets, and such, isnâ?Tt it to be
> expected that a dog would listen to such directions as left, right,
> straight, etc? If it is a problem to expect this, how does a dog enhance
> independence?
>> On Apr 18, 2016, at 7:49 PM, Cindy Ray via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> You would likely do this with a cane. It can be a little hard if you
>> don't get good directions. When you receive push back on this, what do
>> folks suggest you do?
>> Cindy
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Aleeha Dudley
>> via NAGDU
>> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 7:41 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Aleeha Dudley <blindcowgirl1993 at gmail.com>
>> Subject: [NAGDU] guide dogs and unfamiliar routes
>> Hey all,
>> Iâ?Tm writing to seek your opinion on something that Iâ?Tve been
>> pondering for a while. Do you guys find that it is reasonable to go to a
>> brand new city with your dog, get directions to go somewhere, and get
>> there, while still using the dog, even if the area is unknown? Am I wrong
>> in thinking that the dog should listen to what you need, and not have a
>> massive panic? Iâ?Tve gotten some push back from people on this and
>> wanted to see your thoughts.
>> Thanks
>> Aleeha
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>
>
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