[NAGDU] {Spam?} Re: guide dogs and unfamiliar routes

Raul A. Gallegos raul at raulgallegos.com
Wed Apr 20 00:00:40 UTC 2016


Hello. I'm weighing in on this kind of late and without reading the 
original post. However let me say that regardless of how much I trust my 
dog, I will always carry a folding cane with me when traveling. I agree 
however that using the cane and dog together while traveling is not 
something I would try. I would only use the folding cane extended for 
the following. This is for several reasons. First off, canes are not 
evil and are simply another tool in your belt along with having the dog 
for certain situations.

1. What happens if your dog gets sick? As you pointed out, there is not 
always sighted help around. So, having a cane to step in if your dog is 
sick or can't guide you makes perfect sense.

2. Getting a physical recon of your surroundings. Dogs by their very 
nature are trained to guide you. This means they will generally go 
around things, avoiding them, so you don't run into them. So, in 
situations where you might need to find something physical whether it's 
for land marking purposes, or because it's what you want for any other 
reason to help your traveling. In cases like this having a cane to give 
you that tactile feedback will be better than a dog because it's like a 
long finger and you can "feel" your way around to what is around you. A 
good example is if you want to stop at a certain mailbox out on the 
sidewalk. Someone told you there was one there and you need to mail off 
the letter to your great Aunt Matilda. Your trusty dog has never taken 
you to this mailbox, so by his/her very nature he/she will guide you on 
this sidewalk and totally bypass the mailbox.

3. Going places you wouldn't take your dog to. I know this has happened 
to everyone. As much as we all want to take our dogs to 100 percent of 
the places we go to, a responsible handler will not subject their dog to 
some kinds of environments. Rock concerts come to mind. If you are a 
rocker and you just absolutely must see the Guns N Roses concert in 
Houston because the band is together after more than 15 years, you will 
not want to take your dog there. It's stressful being a guide dog as it 
is, so why would you want to add to the stress by: A. A ton of people 
who will be drunk and feeding him. B. A ton of people who will be loud 
and annoying. C. Loud music which will hurt your dog's ears.

I could go on with many more examples, but let me say that my feeling is 
that any guide dog user who says they should not ever use a cane for 
anything is someone who will find themselves in some trouble if some of 
these things I wrote about happen. I love my dog, but I'm not going to 
let life stop me if he can't work. Nor would I want him to work if he's 
not well or if I choose to go places which are not appropriate for him. 
Note I'm not talking about the legalities here.

Cheers.



--
Raul A. Gallegos
Assistive Technology Trainer
“Any teacher that can be replaced with a computer, deserves to be.” – 
David Thornburg

Voice/Text: 832.554.7285
Office: 832.639.4477
Personal Email: raul at raulgallegos.com
Work Email: training at raulgallegos.com
Twitter: @rau47 and @AT_Trainer

On 4/19/2016 5:13 PM, S L Johnson via NAGDU wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I find it appalling that this kind of thinking is coming from a guide dog
> school.  If the dogs are well trained, they should be able to handle
> unfamiliar situations with confidence.  That is what I was taught with my
> first guide in 1976 and is still what I believe.  I wonder why there is this
> kind of thinking from some schools.  It sure wasn't the case when I got any
> of my dogs.  I definitely would have had an argument with any trainer who
> suggested me having to use a cane or sighted help in an unfamiliar area.
> Not every blind person has sighted help around.  I have never had it and
> have never needed it either.  Now we have lots of other tools we didn't have
> even 20 years ago.  We only had the Braille compass and then they came out
> with the talking one.  Now there are all kinds of GPS apps for smart phones
> and note takers.  Some schools offer training with the Trekker Breeze.  I
> would think the schools would be promoting more independence, not less.  I
> don't think many guide dogs would work well with a long cane swinging in
> front of them.  I know all of my dogs want to avoid them as much as possible
> and treat them like an obstacle they must get around in order to keep us
> safe.  Did they make you use your canes with your dogs while on class?
>
> Sandra
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lisa Belville via NAGDU
> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 12:58 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Lisa Belville
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] guide dogs and unfamiliar routes
>
> Hi, Aleeha.
>
> I got my dog from GDA nine months ago.  I've heard the same thing about
> using a cane when traveling in unfamiliar areas, not just once, but several
> times and from more than one trainer.
>
> The rationale they use is that caning it around in new surroundings will
> allow me to learn the area well enough to direct the dog accurately, without
> getting stressed out so the dog
> won't get confused, overwhelmed, etc.
>
> I think this is a total cop out.  I agree this is in no way how we
> should be directed if we have issues with our dog's work.  It's just not a
> realistic or efficient way of traveling.
>
> I don't think it's isolated to my or your school, though.  It seems like
> schools are emphasizing non-dog ways to learn new areas.  I heard something
> similar from
> the GDF when I got my second dog ten years ago, only they suggested getting
> sighted help which IMO is worse than using a cane because at least with a
> cane you're still the one finding things out on your own and presumably the
> dog is present so there is a teamwork dynamic happening.  that idea showed a
> lack of expectation regarding the capability of the dog and it was just one
> of the
> many reasons why I decided to switch schools.
>
> As someone said, this is hard enough to stomach when it's coming from an
> uninformed Joe/Jane Q. Public, But it's even more frustrating when you hear
> it from your school, doubly so when it seems to be their Go To response for
> handling
> questions about traveling in a new or challenging environment.
>
> I'm not bashing either of our schools here, well, maybe just a bit  <grin>,
> I'm just saying that this automatic suggestion that we use our canes or
> sighted people in unfamiliar areas is disturbing because it smacks of a huge
> lack of understanding about how blind people travel and it implies that the
> dog shouldn't be expected to do normal guiding tasks in a new environment.
> It seems like it's all about not stressing the dog out rather than actually
> using the dog as a highly skilled travel tool.
>
> I don't travel out of my area that much, but my town is large enough that
> there are always new places to explore. I like to be spontaneous during my
> ramblings.  I figure my brain, Paige's eyes and brain, along with my GPS and
> a compass should be enough.
>
> And, fair warning, unless you're an octopus capable of multitasking, using
> effective cane technique while using a healing dog, and the GPS/compass
> combo is stressful in itself.    I've been
> home with Paige for just over nine months.  I've tried the cane, and I've
> determined that Paige works best without it.  First, she knows she's off the
> clock even if she's healing while in harness.  GDA doesn't use leash
> guiding, so holding the leash while the harness is on means Paige doesn't
> need to really do anything except default obedience, which she has always
> done, thank Dog Secondly, Paige seems to see new places with a fresh eye, so
> she seems more focused.  Maybe it's because we haven't been home
> long enough to create really bad habits LOL I don't know, but I've
> completely scrapped the notion of using the cane with her because I think we
> do better as a team without any additional input other than what I can gleem
> from my surroundings with my senses, feet and GPS and the occasional highly
> skilled sighted help.
>
> To be sure, there will always be room in my tool box for my cane and
> appropriate sighted help.  But I don't expect to automatically need those
> when traveling in an unfamiliar area with a dog, even a green dog.  I get
> that there are situations where using a cane to find something is quicker
> then expecting the dog to target it on the first or second go around,
> especially if it's in a place where there are several options and many
> chances to get it wrong, so you need the dog to get it ASAP.  But this isn't
> a daily
> occurance for most of us, and I don't think it's condusive to safe,
> efficient travel.
>
> The over all training I got with Paige was fabulous.  Her memory is amazing,
> her in harness and off leash manners and basic
> obedience are far above those of either of my last dogs.  Her work ethic is
> excellent.  I can show her something and give her massive amounts of praise
> or a treat and she gets it and retains it without the need for me to keep
> giving her treat rewards.  Moreover, we weren't/aren't expected to provide
> constant treat rewards.  The trainers didn't treat us like children or
> assume we were incapable of taking care of ourselves or our dogs and we got
> complete, unconditional  ownership when training was done.  That's why this
> idea of using a cane in new areas was such a shock to me.  I know other
> grads in my class expressed the same concerns.  I've told my trainers how I
> feel about this and how it seems to send a bad impression about what we
> should expect from our dogs.  Paige is my first dog from this school, so I
> don't know if this is a philosophical issue they actively promote or if it
> is one of those quirks some trainers have.  I do
> wish I'd known about this tendency before I trained with Paige.  I'm not
> saying it would have been a deal breaker, but I think it would have given me
> some pause or at least made me ask more questions about this aspect of their
> training.
>
> Lisa
>
> Lisa Belville
> missktlab1217 at frontier.com
>
> Never make the same mistake twice. There are so many new ones, try a
> different one each day.
>
> Lisa Belville
> missktlab1217 at frontier.com
>
> Never make the same mistake twice. There are so many new ones, try a
> different one each day.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Aleeha Dudley via NAGDU" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: "Aleeha Dudley" <blindcowgirl1993 at gmail.com>
> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 7:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] guide dogs and unfamiliar routes
>
>
>> They suggest I use a cane. But hereâ?Ts the thing. If the route is just
>> going down sidewalks, crossing streets, and such, isnâ?Tt it to be
>> expected that a dog would listen to such directions as left, right,
>> straight, etc? If it is a problem to expect this, how does a dog enhance
>> independence?
>>> On Apr 18, 2016, at 7:49 PM, Cindy Ray via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> You would likely do this with a cane. It can be a little hard if you
>>> don't get good directions. When you receive push back on this, what do
>>> folks suggest you do?
>>> Cindy
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Aleeha Dudley
>>> via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 7:41 PM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Aleeha Dudley <blindcowgirl1993 at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: [NAGDU] guide dogs and unfamiliar routes
>>> Hey all,
>>> Iâ?Tm writing to seek your opinion on something that Iâ?Tve been
>>> pondering for a while. Do you guys find that it is reasonable to go to a
>>> brand new city with your dog, get directions to go somewhere, and get
>>> there, while still using the dog, even if the area is unknown? Am I wrong
>>> in thinking that the dog should listen to what you need, and not have a
>>> massive panic? Iâ?Tve gotten some push back from people on this and
>>> wanted to see your thoughts.
>>> Thanks
>>> Aleeha
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
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