[NAGDU] {Spam?} Re: guide dogs and unfamiliar routes
Dan Weiner
dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net
Wed Apr 20 00:47:28 UTC 2016
I certainly got those recommendations all down the line trough the last22
years of dog guide use, but I never found it really advantageous to use the
cane with the dog, just saying my experience, I do usually have one with me
in a back pack though but not always, after all you do never know, but I
have found I either use one oor the other.
Warmest,
Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Danielle Sykora
via NAGDU
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 8:43 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Danielle Sykora
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] {Spam?} Re: guide dogs and unfamiliar routes
I'm also pretty surprised at some schools insistence that the cane or
sighted assistance is better in unfamiliar areas. I didn't get this reaction
at all when I was in class. Since GDF dogs are not taught to heel, it
actually wouldn't make sense at all for any trainer to recommend using the
cane with your dog on leash and I personally never had a trainer tell me
that sighted assistance was absolutely necessary in any situation. I
remember a trainer saying that it would be a good idea to carry a folding
cane when working the dog in snow, whether the area was familiar or not, but
that's pretty much it.
Sighted assistance can be helpful at times, but it's definitely not
mandatory. I can see where using a cane might be helpful in locating a
specific landmark, but I don't think that means you need to use your cane
the whole time. I never use a cane in unfamiliar areas. I have a dog that is
amazing at the "find" commands though, and he will keep showing me objects
until he gets it right even if he doesn't know exactly what I'm looking for.
I've also always relied on sound more than tactile clues to navigate, so it
might just be my learning style.
Danielle and Thai
On 4/19/16, S L Johnson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Lisa:
>
> I don't think there are many of us who would feel comfortable with
> doing this. For me, it would be impossible because due to physical
> disabilities,
>
> I already have to use a support cane in my right hand while I hold the
> harness or leash in my left hand. What is the reason the school gives
> for this recommendation? Do they think unfamiliar areas are too
> stressful for the dog? What makes them think it is better than just
> having you work the area with your dog. I would hope all of our dogs
> are well enough trained to
>
> handle unfamiliar areas. I think this a dangerous trend if more of
> the schools are recommending this.
>
> Sandra
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lisa Belville via NAGDU
> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 7:47 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Lisa Belville
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] {Spam?} Re: guide dogs and unfamiliar routes
>
> Sandra, you don't hold the harness when using the cane, the dog is
> either in a heal at your left side so you can use the cane to
> negotiate the area or the dog is just not there while you're doing the
> route with the cane. Paige tries pulling out in front of me and while
> I can get her back into the healing position, it's just not an easy
> combo for me to manage in a travel situation.
>
>
>
> Lisa Belville
> missktlab1217 at frontier.com
>
> Never make the same mistake twice. There are so many new ones, try a
> different one each day.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "S L Johnson via NAGDU" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: "S L Johnson" <SLJohnson25 at comcast.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 5:13 PM
> Subject: [NAGDU] {Spam?} Re: guide dogs and unfamiliar routes
>
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I find it appalling that this kind of thinking is coming from a guide
>> dog
>>
>> school. If the dogs are well trained, they should be able to handle
>> unfamiliar situations with confidence. That is what I was taught
>> with my
>>
>> first guide in 1976 and is still what I believe. I wonder why there
>> is this kind of thinking from some schools. It sure wasn't the case
>> when I got any of my dogs. I definitely would have had an argument
>> with any trainer who suggested me having to use a cane or sighted
>> help in an unfamiliar area. Not every blind person has sighted help
>> around. I have never had it and have never needed it either. Now we
>> have lots of other tools we didn't have even 20 years ago. We only
>> had the Braille compass and then they came out with the talking one.
>> Now there are all kinds of GPS apps for smart phones and note takers.
>> Some schools offer training with the Trekker Breeze. I would think
>> the schools would be promoting more independence, not less. I don't
>> think many guide dogs would work well with a long cane swinging in
>> front of them. I know all of my dogs want to avoid them as much as
>> possible and treat them like an obstacle they must get around in
>> order to keep us safe. Did they make you use your
>>
>> canes with your dogs while on class?
>>
>> Sandra
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Lisa Belville via NAGDU
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 12:58 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Cc: Lisa Belville
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] guide dogs and unfamiliar routes
>>
>> Hi, Aleeha.
>>
>> I got my dog from GDA nine months ago. I've heard the same thing
>> about using a cane when traveling in unfamiliar areas, not just once,
>> but several times and from more than one trainer.
>>
>> The rationale they use is that caning it around in new surroundings
>> will allow me to learn the area well enough to direct the dog
>> accurately, without getting stressed out so the dog won't get
>> confused, overwhelmed, etc.
>>
>> I think this is a total cop out. I agree this is in no way how we
>> should be directed if we have issues with our dog's work. It's just
>> not a realistic or efficient way of traveling.
>>
>> I don't think it's isolated to my or your school, though. It seems
>> like schools are emphasizing non-dog ways to learn new areas. I
>> heard something similar from the GDF when I got my second dog ten
>> years ago, only they suggested getting sighted help which IMO is
>> worse than using a cane because at least with a cane you're still the
>> one finding things out on your own and presumably the dog is present
>> so there is a teamwork dynamic happening. that idea showed
>>
>> a
>> lack of expectation regarding the capability of the dog and it was
>> just one of the many reasons why I decided to switch schools.
>>
>> As someone said, this is hard enough to stomach when it's coming from
>> an uninformed Joe/Jane Q. Public, But it's even more frustrating when
>> you hear it from your school, doubly so when it seems to be their Go
>> To response for handling questions about traveling in a new or
>> challenging environment.
>>
>> I'm not bashing either of our schools here, well, maybe just a bit
>> <grin>, I'm just saying that this automatic suggestion that we use
>> our canes or sighted people in unfamiliar areas is disturbing because
>> it smacks of a huge lack of understanding about how blind people
>> travel and it implies that the dog shouldn't be expected to do normal
>> guiding tasks in a new environment.
>> It seems like it's all about not stressing the dog out rather than
>> actually using the dog as a highly skilled travel tool.
>>
>> I don't travel out of my area that much, but my town is large enough
>> that there are always new places to explore. I like to be spontaneous
>> during my ramblings. I figure my brain, Paige's eyes and brain,
>> along with my GPS and a compass should be enough.
>>
>> And, fair warning, unless you're an octopus capable of multitasking,
>> using effective cane technique while using a healing dog, and the
>> GPS/compass
>> combo is stressful in itself. I've been
>> home with Paige for just over nine months. I've tried the cane, and
>> I've determined that Paige works best without it. First, she knows
>> she's off the clock even if she's healing while in harness. GDA
>> doesn't use leash guiding, so holding the leash while the harness is
>> on means Paige doesn't need to really do anything except default
>> obedience, which she has always done, thank Dog Secondly, Paige seems
>> to see new places with a fresh eye,
>>
>> so
>> she seems more focused. Maybe it's because we haven't been home long
>> enough to create really bad habits LOL I don't know, but I've
>> completely scrapped the notion of using the cane with her because I
>> think
>>
>> we
>> do better as a team without any additional input other than what I
>> can gleem from my surroundings with my senses, feet and GPS and the
>> occasional highly skilled sighted help.
>>
>> To be sure, there will always be room in my tool box for my cane and
>> appropriate sighted help. But I don't expect to automatically need
>> those when traveling in an unfamiliar area with a dog, even a green
>> dog. I get that there are situations where using a cane to find
>> something is quicker then expecting the dog to target it on the first
>> or second go around, especially if it's in a place where there are
>> several options and many chances to get it wrong, so you need the dog
>> to get it ASAP. But this isn't a daily occurance for most of us, and
>> I don't think it's condusive to safe, efficient travel.
>>
>> The over all training I got with Paige was fabulous. Her memory is
>> amazing, her in harness and off leash manners and basic obedience are
>> far above those of either of my last dogs. Her work ethic is
>> excellent. I can show her something and give her massive amounts of
>> praise or a treat and she gets it and retains it without the need for
>> me to keep giving her treat rewards. Moreover, we weren't/aren't
>> expected to provide constant treat rewards. The trainers didn't
>> treat us like children or assume we were incapable of taking care of
>> ourselves or our dogs and we got complete, unconditional ownership
>> when training was done. That's why this idea of using a cane in new
>> areas was such a shock to me. I know other grads in my class
>> expressed the same concerns. I've told my trainers how
>>
>> I
>> feel about this and how it seems to send a bad impression about what
>> we should expect from our dogs. Paige is my first dog from this
>> school, so I don't know if this is a philosophical issue they
>> actively promote or if it is one of those quirks some trainers have.
>> I do wish I'd known about this tendency before I trained with Paige.
>> I'm not saying it would have been a deal breaker, but I think it
>> would have given
>>
>> me
>> some pause or at least made me ask more questions about this aspect
>> of their training.
>>
>> Lisa
>>
>> Lisa Belville
>> missktlab1217 at frontier.com
>>
>> Never make the same mistake twice. There are so many new ones, try a
>> different one each day.
>>
>> Lisa Belville
>> missktlab1217 at frontier.com
>>
>> Never make the same mistake twice. There are so many new ones, try a
>> different one each day.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Aleeha Dudley via NAGDU" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: "Aleeha Dudley" <blindcowgirl1993 at gmail.com>
>> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 7:53 PM
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] guide dogs and unfamiliar routes
>>
>>
>>> They suggest I use a cane. But hereâ?Ts the thing. If the route is
>>> just going down sidewalks, crossing streets, and such, isnâ?Tt it to
>>> be expected that a dog would listen to such directions as left,
>>> right, straight, etc? If it is a problem to expect this, how does a
>>> dog enhance
>>>
>>> independence?
>>>> On Apr 18, 2016, at 7:49 PM, Cindy Ray via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> You would likely do this with a cane. It can be a little hard if
>>>> you don't get good directions. When you receive push back on this,
>>>> what do folks suggest you do?
>>>> Cindy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Aleeha
>>>> Dudley
>>>>
>>>> via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2016 7:41 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: Aleeha Dudley <blindcowgirl1993 at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: [NAGDU] guide dogs and unfamiliar routes Hey all, Iâ?Tm
>>>> writing to seek your opinion on something that Iâ?Tve been
>>>> pondering for a while. Do you guys find that it is reasonable to go
>>>> to a
>>>>
>>>> brand new city with your dog, get directions to go somewhere, and
>>>> get there, while still using the dog, even if the area is unknown?
>>>> Am I wrong in thinking that the dog should listen to what you need,
>>>> and not have a massive panic? Iâ?Tve gotten some push back from
>>>> people on this and wanted to see your thoughts.
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Aleeha
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
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>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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