[NAGDU] Cracks and training

Fri Apr 29 16:43:41 UTC 2016

Well, honestly,  my first two dogs were very good at taking initiative with
my veering, if I were, say, faced slightly the wrong way when about to set
off, my dog would pull me in the right direction. This adaption to me
happened after say the first few weeks, dogs are observant, I've had a
harder time with that durning the period of my last few dogs, I sort of
hoped that Parker would take some more iniative, but basically if I give him
reassurance he's fine but I fI'm at all hesitant or unsure than he seems to
also be unsure. I know that part of this is due to dog personality but I do
wondder sometimes...anyway, we deal with what we have at the particular
time. My life now is also different than it was 20 years ago and I think it
als could be that my dogs then had more of a chance to figure things out
because I was more active. Oh well, solution, get more active and work on
it--smile.

Cordially,
Dan and the Parker Hound

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of lkeeler--- via
NAGDU
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2016 12:34 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: lkeeler at comcast.net
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Cracks and training

Yah, its sort of both. Holly will find the curb cuts, I will lline up and
listen to trafic. When we cross, we both pay attention in case the curbs
aren't actually lined up. Me, to the trafic and Holly to the curb cuts.

-----Original Message-----
From: Danielle Sykora via NAGDU
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2016 11:42 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Danielle Sykora
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Cracks and training

I've always considered it mostly the handler's responsibility for lining up
with traffic, but the dog's responsibility for finding the curb whether it
is straight ahead or offset. Of course the dog is going to make a mistake
every now and then, especially if it's a really weird intersection that they
haven't seen before, but overall I would expect my dog to be able to find
the curb without too much assistance. Thai loves anything to do with find,
so he does a great job of finding the curb. Good thing, because there are a
lot of rounded corners and offset curbs around here. There were one or two
very diagonal crossings that kind of confused him at first, but he did fine
after I showed it to him. More often than not, he will stop at the downcurb
already angled toward the upcurb if he sees it's an offset intersection.

I also expect that my dog should be able to follow a curved sidewalk, or
find the sidewalk again after having to move around an obstacle.
Thai can usually do this without more than a "find the way" or "find the
sidewalk" from me.

In general, I felt the dogs had been trained as if they were going to work
with a totally blind person, though the trainers never actually said this. I
was actually specifically told never to tuck in my body in order to fit
through a narrow space, but to just let the dog make the mistake if he
wasn't paying attention. I'm not sure if my trainer told me this knowing I
was totally blind, or the same advice would have been given to any student.

One thing that did concern me though was the lack of emphasis put on
stopping for overhead obstacles. Sure, the trainers generally expected the
dogs to stop for/avoid overheads, but they specifically said they didn't
work on it too much. I definitely think my dog could have used more practice
with this, because he doesn't always seem to remember to look up in the
first place. Anything at shoulder level or below he avoids perfectly but
above that he tends to struggle. Maybe this is one of the things my dog just
wouldn't be fantastic at no matter how much training he got, but the fact
that the trainers specifically said they hadn't worked on this task as much
as most others made me think.
Yes, I know this is one of the most difficult tasks the dogs have to learn
because it's pretty unnatural for a dog, but I'm not sure the trainer fully
realized how inconvenient it is to have a dog who only shows you half of the
tree branches you encounter.

Overall I'm very happy with my dog and school, but sometimes I wonder if
sighted trainers really understand what it is like for a blind person to
work a guide dog full time. I think they generally do a great job with task
training, but sometimes some of the details don't really make sense to me.
For example, not getting dogs used to being touched while relieving,
teaching puppies to focus by making eye contact rather than "touch" or other
physical contact, not expecting dogs to pick up the line or travel without
specific directions, or instructing students to always get sighted
assistance in learning a new route. I'm not trying to criticize any one
program and I know every dog, handler, and trainer has their strong and weak
points, but it's something I too have wondered about.

Danielle and Thai

On 4/29/16, Lisa Belville via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Hi, Cindy.  I definitely don't want a younger dog.  Katy was 18 months 
> old when I got her, but she'd only spent 11 months with her puppy 
> walkers and was called in because they needed dogs.  She really could 
> have used extra time with them because she was and still is very 
> mouthy and could never be trained to not pick up anything on the 
> floor.  lids, paper towels, hair scrunchies.  I got paranoid about 
> dropping everything because I knew that unless I kept her on a tie 
> down or crated she'd never stop, and this was after setting her up and 
> correcting her, exchanging forbidden object for her
>
> stuff, and on and on.  It got slightly better as she aged, but it 
> never completely went away.
>
> As far as dogs being robots, no, they're not, and I wouldn't want a 
> dog who
>
> couldn't think.  But I've found that it seems like dogs aren't as 
> assertive
>
> as some of them need to be.  I have a horrible veer, and eventually 
> after countless times of doing a crossing or a specific route,it would 
> be nice if
>
> the dog could compensate for the fact that I'm veering slightly while 
> crossing a street or not 100% accurate with directions.  We have a lot 
> of areas with really torn up sidewalks or just twisty sidewalks where 
> we need to curve to the right or left and then resume our line of 
> travel. Paige won't do this unless I'm able to direct her accurately 
> every time.  I'm not
>
> sure if she doesn't get it or if she's waiting on me to tell her.  If 
> I zone
>
> out or for some reason get disorientated like we did yesterday then 
> all bets
>
> are off.  This is the kind of thing Tracey and I are talking about 
> regarding
>
> less expectation being placed on dogs.  No one is on their game 100%, 
> but there comes a time when you as a person can only do so much and 
> the dog needs to pick up the slack, especially if you've been able to 
> show them what
>
> you need repeatedly.
>
> Lisa
>
> Lisa Belville
> missktlab1217 at frontier.com
>
> Never make the same mistake twice. There are so many new ones, try a 
> different one each day.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cindy Ray via NAGDU" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at gmail.com>
> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2016 7:15 AM
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Cracks and training
>
>
>> Maybe I just don't get it. I got my first dog in 1989. In those days 
>> TSE gave out younger dogs; later they worked with them an extra month 
>> and they were closer to two years of age when they went out. The dogs 
>> are not robots.
>> If there is fault, I'd say that some dogs are left in the programs 
>> longer than they should be. A dog the age of, say Dar's, is still 
>> sort of a puppy.
>> I've thought I would like one that young before, but all of mine, 
>> even old Wayne, was more settled because they were a little older. 
>> Fisher had been ready for the September class at about 26 months; I 
>> got him in December at about 29 or 30 months. The trainers are newer 
>> now; they have a little different work schedule. I think a lot of 
>> effort is spent with the dogs, but there is a lot to learn. Traffic 
>> patterns are more complex than they were even in the 60s. People are 
>> doing way more diverse things than they did in the past. Dogs aren't 
>> robots and don't all fit the same mold. It is an interesting 
>> question, but I sometimes worry that we are looking for problems that 
>> may not exist at all. And, of course, I can't say much about any 
>> other school.
>> Cindy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy 
>> Carcione via NAGDU
>> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2016 7:09 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Cracks and training
>>
>> I've heard it takes 1-one and a half years to gel since I got my 
>> first guide in 1980.  These days, for me, it seems to take 2 years.  
>> Don't know why.
>> No one ever said that my dog was trained for a totally blind person.
>> Interesting that some trainers at least think about it.
>> Tracy
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Lisa 
>> Belville via NAGDU
>> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2016 12:49 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Cc: Lisa Belville
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Cracks and training
>>
>> Well, I didn't go to Leader, but that's what I was told when I got my 
>> first dog in 1996.  I went to the same school for my second dog and 
>> no one indicated any specific type of training.  Same for Paige's 
>> school when I attended last year.
>>
>> I also remember being told in that first class that it took about six 
>> to
>> 12
>> months for a team to really gel.  Now it's like a year or two, at 
>> least that was the general advice they gave to grads last I checked.  
>> That was the GDF, though, so people's mileage will vary.
>>
>> And really, I'm sure that no school is going to say they don't train 
>> their
>> dogs as well now as they did back in the day.    LOL
>>
>> Lisa
>>
>>
>> Lisa Belville
>> missktlab1217 at frontier.com
>>
>> Never make the same mistake twice. There are so many new ones, try a 
>> different one each day.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Wayne And Harley via NAGDU" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: "Wayne And Harley" <k9dad at k9di.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 5:24 PM
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Cracks and training
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Tracey, that must be a recent change. When I got LD Sequoia in 
>>> 2000, the trainer made a specific point to inform me that all Leager 
>>> Dogs were trained as if their future Owner was a total and for me 
>>> not to screw that up cos Mt vi SD ion coukd change between one 
>>> heartbeat and
>> the next...
>>>
>>>
>>> Yours, Very Sincerely And Respectfully,
>>>
>>> Wayne M. Scace
>>>
>>> -------- Original message --------
>>> From: Tracy Carcione via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Date: 4/27/2016  08:54  (GMT-06:00)
>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
>>> Subject: [NAGDU] Cracks and training
>>>
>>> Hi Dan.
>>> I too have a feeling that training isn't as rigorous as it used to 
>>> be, but I'm not sure behavior around cracked sidewalks is an example.
>>> I got my first dog in 1980. We didn't have any trouble with cracked 
>>> sidewalks, not that I remember, anyway. But we trained in downtown 
>>> San Rafael, which has much nicer sidewalks than Morristown. And I 
>>> lived in St.
>>> Paul, which has much nicer sidewalks than my neighborhood in New Jersey.
>>> And I was young and flexible, too.
>>>
>>> I have a theory that dogs used to be trained as if their people 
>>> would be totally blind, and now they're trained as if their people 
>>> will have at least a little usable vision. But I don't have any one 
>>> thing I can point to to prove it.
>>> Tracy
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dan 
>>> Weiner via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 8:46 AM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Cc: Dan Weiner
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Taking really long walks
>>>
>>> That's an interesting question, Tracey...I have noticed last few 
>>> times around at guide dog school that the dogs were not careful 
>>> about stopping for changes of surface or cracks at all, all right, 
>>> every little crack, that's a judgment ccall maybe but changes in 
>>> surface could be a problem or little steps or raised or falling 
>>> areas. I've worked wit my pups when I get home an dwe have a happy 
>>> medium but I have wondered about that, I don't think my memory was 
>>> failing me, I thin that 22 years ago when I got my first dog the 
>>> dogs were made to be more careful.
>>> What do you think?
>>>
>>> Dan the man with Parker the nut
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy 
>>> Carcione via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 8:24 AM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Cc: Tracy Carcione
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Taking really long walks
>>>
>>> I got scraped up, but nothing broken, and now he's more careful.
>>> My neighborhood has a lot of cracked sidewalks because we have a lot 
>>> of large trees. Trees are good; cracked sidewalks not so much.
>>> My dogs have all had to learn how to operate here. If they stopped 
>>> for every crack, we'd never get anywhere, but, if they don't stop 
>>> for the worst ones, I trip. I suppose I could learn to goose-step, 
>>> picking my feet way up, but I would feel ridiculous. So my guys 
>>> learn what will trip me, and what probably won't.
>>> I was happy to find a whole section of sidewalk the town had repaired.
>>> Wish
>>> they'd do more, but people around here are more interested in 
>>> streets than sidewalks.
>>> Tracy
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of d m gina 
>>> via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2016 4:46 PM
>>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>>> Cc: d m gina
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Taking really long walks
>>>
>>> Original I am so sorry you fell.
>>> I hope you didn't brake anything.
>>> Maybe the next time you go to that area, your dog will slow down.
>>> Wishing you the best.
>>> message:
>>>> The fall is not OK, but there is no foolproof travel method. I 
>>>> missed a turn in a slanted and broken curb the other day and fell. 
>>>> I have fallen using my dog, too. It happens. What is not OK for me 
>>>> is if it happens because the dog is distracted by, say, other dogs.
>>>> Cindy Lou Ray
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Star 
>>>> Gazer via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2016 2:02 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: Star Gazer <pickrellrebecca at gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Taking really long walks
>>>
>>>> The fall would not be ok with me. I know, easy for me to say since 
>>>> I don't have any emotions invested in the two of you.
>>>> Is his pace comfortable for you?
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy 
>>>> Carcione via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Friday, April 15, 2016 1:44 PM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: Tracy Carcione <carcione at access.net>
>>>> Subject: [NAGDU] Taking really long walks
>>>
>>>> The hiker says he works his dog 10-15 miles every day. I was 
>>>> thinking about that. His dog must have a good pace, or he's got a 
>>>> lot of free time. Maybe he counts it as work time, keeping in shape for
hiking.
>>>
>>>> Krokus takes about 90 minutes to go 3 miles, though that includes 
>>>> many street crossings and a lot of cracked sidewalks. Even so, he's 
>>>> a bit more of a stroller than I'd prefer. On the other hand, I have 
>>>> tripped over a big crack and landed hard, which isn't any fun at all.
>>>
>>>> I think Krokus is just a guy who needs some time to react. He can 
>>>> dodge someone rushing out from a shop we're passing, but he'd 
>>>> prefer to have some time to plan his moves. Or maybe I'm making 
>>>> excuses for his
>>> ambling self.
>>>
>>>> Tracy
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>> --
>>> --Dar
>>> skype: dmgina23
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>>> www.twitter.com/dmgina
>>> every saint has a past
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