[NAGDU] NAGDU Digest, Vol 131, Issue 9
Mardi Hadfield
wolfsinger.lakota at gmail.com
Wed Feb 10 05:07:15 UTC 2016
Happy Birthday Eva!!!!!!!!!! Many more in the coming years !! From, Mardi
and Shaman and Neechee and Sedona
On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 5:00 AM, <nagdu-request at nfbnet.org> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. What NAGDU is doing about fake service dog users (Marion Gwizdala)
> 2. Re: What NAGDU is doing about fake service dog users (David)
> 3. Re: What NAGDU is doing about fake service dog users (Erika Wolf)
> 4. Re: Fake Service Dogs Redux (Cross Posted) (Marion Gwizdala)
> 5. Re: What NAGDU is doing about fake service dog users
> (Bryan Gearry)
> 6. Re: What NAGDU is doing about fake service dog users (Cindy Ray)
> 7. Re: What NAGDU is doing about fake service dog users
> (Bryan Gearry)
> 8. Re: What NAGDU is doing about fake service dog users
> (Jenine Stanley)
> 9. Happy Birthday Eva! (S L Johnson)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2016 11:32:16 -0500
> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: "'Tracy Carcione'" <carcione at access.net>
> Subject: [NAGDU] What NAGDU is doing about fake service dog users
> Message-ID: <00ae01d1628e$4687ad70$d3970850$@verizon.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Dear All,
>
> NAGDU is putting together some materials to help us start
> conversations with local businesses and the public about our mutual rights
> and responsibilities. On march 15, we will celebrate the 5th anniversary of
> our NAGDU Information & Advocacy Hotline (888-NAGDU411) which launched
> concurrently with the effective date of new Department of Justice
> implementing regulations concerning service dogs under the Americans with
> Disabilities Act. In recognition of this anniversary, we are rolling out
> our shiny updated website. Along with this roll-out, we are creating
> "Service Animals Welcome" decals that will contain our website and a QR
> code to bring the public to our website. We are also publishing an 8.5 X
> 14" glossy, full-color, four-fold brochure. These materials will help us
> get in front of proprietors and store managers to discuss the issues we
> have and offer them support and guidance on how to deal with questionable
> service dogs in their businesses. Finally, we will have two nationwide
> teleconferences to share this information - one for NFB advocates and
> another for businesses. Watch your in boxes for more information coming
> soon!
>
> Fraternally yours,
>
> Marion Gwizdala, President
> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
> National Federation of the Blind
> (813) 626-2789
> (888) 624-3841 (Hotline)
> President at nagdu.org
> http://www.nagdu.org
>
> High expectations create unlimited potential for the blind!
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione
> via NAGDU
> Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2016 9:27 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: Tracy Carcione
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fake Service Dogs Redux (Cross Posted)
>
> I think David's idea is excellent. I am willing to speak to local
> businesses and police about the issue, but I would welcome some guidance as
> to how to go about it. A video or an outline/script would be helpful.
> Tracy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David via NAGDU
> Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2016 1:31 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: David
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fake Service Dogs Redux (Cross Posted)
>
> Michael, I appreciate your response. How about a NAGDU and NFB program to
> work with local Chambers of Commerce and police/sheriff departments?
> Perhaps a video could be created to help train businesses in appropriate
> responses to misbehaving dogs and handlers? Create a campaign to train
> local activists to approach local publications, town councils, public
> agencies, and ... .
>
> I don't have the answers. While I am new to this issue, I'm not new to
> being visually impaired and I've dealt with a lot of tough issues in my
> life before now.
>
> My point is that the problem is not going to go away and we need to be
> committed to collectively decide, and act, upon a strategy in an effective
> manner. Guide schools have their own financial issues and their own
> perspectives. Transferring part of the onus to them and claiming that a
> solution is subject to circumvention are non sequitorae. That's kind of
> like saying gun manufacturers are responsible, too, and that if you
> regulate guns then only criminals will have guns.
>
> We are the ones who are being affected. In my opinion, saying that we are
> not willing to erode our freedoms and not accommodate legitimate interests
> of businesses and other members of the public is much like yelling, "Let
> freedom ring!" without addressing the reality of a far
> larger power base. Their interests have a direct bearing on our
> freedoms and if their concerns remain unresolved, they will create
> remedies that fit their, not our, interests.
>
> 'Just sayin'.
>
> David and Claire Rose in Clearwater, FL
>
> On 2/6/2016 10:49 AM, Michael Hingson via NAGDU wrote:
> > Please keep in mind that no matter the "certification" that the
> government could mandate someone on the internet will come up with a
> fraudulent version. No, certification is not the answer. We ALL need to
> help educate. The government needs to educate and empower. ALL guide dog
> schools need to take a much more active role in education and advocacy. The
> schools have as much responsibility to be a part of the solution as do we.
> >
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> >
> > Michael Hingson
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray
> > via NAGDU
> > Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 8:16 PM
> > To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > Cc: Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fake Service Dogs Redux (Cross Posted)
> >
> > They are bogus though because you don't need one at the current time,
> those certifications. I fear that David may be right and eventually we will
> have to have ID because of all the people who are using animals
> fraudulently. As for behavior, if the dog is not behaving properly, they
> can ask it to leave whether it is a service animal or not. They need to
> understand this.
> > Cindy Lou Ray
> > cindyray at gmail.com
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael
> > Babcock via NAGDU
> > Sent: Friday, February 5, 2016 9:32 PM
> > To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> > <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > Cc: Michael Babcock <michael at yourownpay.com>
> > Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fake Service Dogs Redux (Cross Posted)
> >
> > The worse thing is someone can get a ?certification? for there dog for
> $64+shipping online.
> > That?s it, no training, just a certification.
> > I wish this wasn?t the case for sure!
> > best.
> > michael Babcock
> >> On Feb 5, 2016, at 3:21 PM, David via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Unfortunately, I think all this fake service dog news is stirring up a
> lot of stuff right now.
> >>
> >> For the record, I have been, and I am, a big Costco fan and have had
> incredible service from their employees. I am also impressed with the
> quality of their products. However, I had an incident at Costco yesterday
> where I was told by the person at the door that if Claire Rose was a
> service animal I needed to fill out a form. I told the person that I did
> not need to fill out a form, which two questions I was willing to answer,
> and that I had already answered one of them. He did not ask what Claire
> Rose did for me, and told me that it was corporate policy and that I had to
> fill out the form. I was in a hurry so I walked past him. After my denial
> of service from Uber earlier in the day, I probably was bit grumpy.
> >>
> >> I called and left a message for the store manager. He returned my call
> today and said that there was no form for anyone to fill out, but that
> people at the door were told to ask customers with service animals to read
> a memo informing them that Costco could not allow service animals to ride
> in carts. This sounds entirely reasonable to me from a health standpoint.
> We talked for quite a while and I think the guy at the door is going to get
> some retraining. We had a long discussion about the problem stores are
> having with fake service animals and how they feel that they are stuck once
> the person says that Fluffy is a service animal. I explained that animals
> that misbehave are very likely not service animals. He said he also
> understood that people with legitimate service animals would likely not put
> them in carts, or would their animals bark and snarl at customers.
> >>
> >> This problem is not going to go away, folks. Companies obviously
> believe that their hands are tied. When so many people increasingly feel
> entitled to bring their pets anywhere they wish, it is lawsuit-suicide for
> stores and restaurants to call the police in the event that it turns out
> that the dog that appears to be untrained is actually a trained epilepsy,
> insulin, or whatever, alerter, even in states where fake service animal
> legislation is in place. after all, how are police going to determine
> whether the dog is a fake, or not. The criminal statutes for faking it
> simply have no reliable method for enforcement and we will increasingly
> become the targets of suspicion and accusation. I don't think that there
> are any easy answers, but we're seeing a surge of reactions from airline
> passengers and news organizations and we need a unified solution, not a
> state by state dribble of ineffective patches.
> >>
> >> The public is becoming angry. Store and restaurant owners are becoming
> frustrated. We are getting angry.
> >>
> >> In my opinion, because of the free-for-all attitude among those who
> want pet privileges equal to ours, I think the time has come to try to
> address a federal certificate, or ID, that perhaps is training school
> triggered in the case of program trained animals, or maybe regulations
> legitimizing training school IDs. We are also going to have to bite the
> bullet and figure out how to get self-trained animals certified without
> creating yet another bureaucracy. The turmoil is not going to calm and I
> think we need to be proactive. With so many having worked so hard to win
> our protected status, it is a bit of a disappointment to think that it
> could be eroded. There is no doubt in my mind, however, that the fake dog
> issue will erode that status if we don't collectively figure out how best
> to effectively deal with it.
> >>
> >> David and Claire Rose in Clearwater, FL
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> NAGDU mailing list
> >> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/michael%40yourownp
> >> ay.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NAGDU mailing list
> > NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.co
> > m
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NAGDU mailing list
> > NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mike%40michaelhings
> > on.com
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NAGDU mailing list
> > NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/david%40bakerinet.c
> > om
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/carcione%40access.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blind411%40verizon.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 11:48:25 -0500
> From: David <david at bakerinet.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] What NAGDU is doing about fake service dog users
> Message-ID: <56B8C6D9.8080804 at bakerinet.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> Thank you, Marion. That is great news.
>
> David and Claire Rose in Clearwater, FL
>
> On 2/8/2016 11:32 AM, Marion Gwizdala via NAGDU wrote:
> > Dear All,
> >
> > NAGDU is putting together some materials to help us start
> conversations with local businesses and the public about our mutual rights
> and responsibilities. On march 15, we will celebrate the 5th anniversary of
> our NAGDU Information & Advocacy Hotline (888-NAGDU411) which launched
> concurrently with the effective date of new Department of Justice
> implementing regulations concerning service dogs under the Americans with
> Disabilities Act. In recognition of this anniversary, we are rolling out
> our shiny updated website. Along with this roll-out, we are creating
> "Service Animals Welcome" decals that will contain our website and a QR
> code to bring the public to our website. We are also publishing an 8.5 X
> 14" glossy, full-color, four-fold brochure. These materials will help us
> get in front of proprietors and store managers to discuss the issues we
> have and offer them support and guidance on how to deal with questionable
> service dogs in their businesses. Finally, we will have two nationwide
> teleconferences to share this information - one for NFB advocates and
> another for businesses. Watch your in boxes for more information coming
> soon!
> >
> > Fraternally yours,
> >
> > Marion Gwizdala, President
> > National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
> > National Federation of the Blind
> > (813) 626-2789
> > (888) 624-3841 (Hotline)
> > President at nagdu.org
> > http://www.nagdu.org
> >
> > High expectations create unlimited potential for the blind!
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy
> Carcione via NAGDU
> > Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2016 9:27 AM
> > To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> > Cc: Tracy Carcione
> > Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fake Service Dogs Redux (Cross Posted)
> >
> > I think David's idea is excellent. I am willing to speak to local
> businesses and police about the issue, but I would welcome some guidance as
> to how to go about it. A video or an outline/script would be helpful.
> > Tracy
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David via
> NAGDU
> > Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2016 1:31 PM
> > To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> > Cc: David
> > Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fake Service Dogs Redux (Cross Posted)
> >
> > Michael, I appreciate your response. How about a NAGDU and NFB program
> to work with local Chambers of Commerce and police/sheriff departments?
> > Perhaps a video could be created to help train businesses in appropriate
> responses to misbehaving dogs and handlers? Create a campaign to train
> local activists to approach local publications, town councils, public
> agencies, and ... .
> >
> > I don't have the answers. While I am new to this issue, I'm not new to
> being visually impaired and I've dealt with a lot of tough issues in my
> life before now.
> >
> > My point is that the problem is not going to go away and we need to be
> committed to collectively decide, and act, upon a strategy in an effective
> manner. Guide schools have their own financial issues and their own
> perspectives. Transferring part of the onus to them and claiming that a
> solution is subject to circumvention are non sequitorae. That's kind of
> like saying gun manufacturers are responsible, too, and that if you
> regulate guns then only criminals will have guns.
> >
> > We are the ones who are being affected. In my opinion, saying that we
> are not willing to erode our freedoms and not accommodate legitimate
> interests of businesses and other members of the public is much like
> yelling, "Let freedom ring!" without addressing the reality of a far
> > larger power base. Their interests have a direct bearing on our
> > freedoms and if their concerns remain unresolved, they will create
> remedies that fit their, not our, interests.
> >
> > 'Just sayin'.
> >
> > David and Claire Rose in Clearwater, FL
> >
> > On 2/6/2016 10:49 AM, Michael Hingson via NAGDU wrote:
> >> Please keep in mind that no matter the "certification" that the
> government could mandate someone on the internet will come up with a
> fraudulent version. No, certification is not the answer. We ALL need to
> help educate. The government needs to educate and empower. ALL guide dog
> schools need to take a much more active role in education and advocacy. The
> schools have as much responsibility to be a part of the solution as do we.
> >>
> >>
> >> Best Regards,
> >>
> >>
> >> Michael Hingson
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray
> >> via NAGDU
> >> Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 8:16 PM
> >> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> >> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >> Cc: Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fake Service Dogs Redux (Cross Posted)
> >>
> >> They are bogus though because you don't need one at the current time,
> those certifications. I fear that David may be right and eventually we will
> have to have ID because of all the people who are using animals
> fraudulently. As for behavior, if the dog is not behaving properly, they
> can ask it to leave whether it is a service animal or not. They need to
> understand this.
> >> Cindy Lou Ray
> >> cindyray at gmail.com
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael
> >> Babcock via NAGDU
> >> Sent: Friday, February 5, 2016 9:32 PM
> >> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> >> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >> Cc: Michael Babcock <michael at yourownpay.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fake Service Dogs Redux (Cross Posted)
> >>
> >> The worse thing is someone can get a ?certification? for there dog for
> $64+shipping online.
> >> That?s it, no training, just a certification.
> >> I wish this wasn?t the case for sure!
> >> best.
> >> michael Babcock
> >>> On Feb 5, 2016, at 3:21 PM, David via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Unfortunately, I think all this fake service dog news is stirring up a
> lot of stuff right now.
> >>>
> >>> For the record, I have been, and I am, a big Costco fan and have had
> incredible service from their employees. I am also impressed with the
> quality of their products. However, I had an incident at Costco yesterday
> where I was told by the person at the door that if Claire Rose was a
> service animal I needed to fill out a form. I told the person that I did
> not need to fill out a form, which two questions I was willing to answer,
> and that I had already answered one of them. He did not ask what Claire
> Rose did for me, and told me that it was corporate policy and that I had to
> fill out the form. I was in a hurry so I walked past him. After my denial
> of service from Uber earlier in the day, I probably was bit grumpy.
> >>>
> >>> I called and left a message for the store manager. He returned my
> call today and said that there was no form for anyone to fill out, but that
> people at the door were told to ask customers with service animals to read
> a memo informing them that Costco could not allow service animals to ride
> in carts. This sounds entirely reasonable to me from a health standpoint.
> We talked for quite a while and I think the guy at the door is going to get
> some retraining. We had a long discussion about the problem stores are
> having with fake service animals and how they feel that they are stuck once
> the person says that Fluffy is a service animal. I explained that animals
> that misbehave are very likely not service animals. He said he also
> understood that people with legitimate service animals would likely not put
> them in carts, or would their animals bark and snarl at customers.
> >>>
> >>> This problem is not going to go away, folks. Companies obviously
> believe that their hands are tied. When so many people increasingly feel
> entitled to bring their pets anywhere they wish, it is lawsuit-suicide for
> stores and restaurants to call the police in the event that it turns out
> that the dog that appears to be untrained is actually a trained epilepsy,
> insulin, or whatever, alerter, even in states where fake service animal
> legislation is in place. after all, how are police going to determine
> whether the dog is a fake, or not. The criminal statutes for faking it
> simply have no reliable method for enforcement and we will increasingly
> become the targets of suspicion and accusation. I don't think that there
> are any easy answers, but we're seeing a surge of reactions from airline
> passengers and news organizations and we need a unified solution, not a
> state by state dribble of ineffective patches.
> >>>
> >>> The public is becoming angry. Store and restaurant owners are
> becoming frustrated. We are getting angry.
> >>>
> >>> In my opinion, because of the free-for-all attitude among those who
> want pet privileges equal to ours, I think the time has come to try to
> address a federal certificate, or ID, that perhaps is training school
> triggered in the case of program trained animals, or maybe regulations
> legitimizing training school IDs. We are also going to have to bite the
> bullet and figure out how to get self-trained animals certified without
> creating yet another bureaucracy. The turmoil is not going to calm and I
> think we need to be proactive. With so many having worked so hard to win
> our protected status, it is a bit of a disappointment to think that it
> could be eroded. There is no doubt in my mind, however, that the fake dog
> issue will erode that status if we don't collectively figure out how best
> to effectively deal with it.
> >>>
> >>> David and Claire Rose in Clearwater, FL
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> NAGDU mailing list
> >>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/michael%40yourownp
> >>> ay.com
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> NAGDU mailing list
> >> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.co
> >> m
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> NAGDU mailing list
> >> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mike%40michaelhings
> >> on.com
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> NAGDU mailing list
> >> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/david%40bakerinet.c
> >> om
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NAGDU mailing list
> > NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/carcione%40access.net
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NAGDU mailing list
> > NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> >
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blind411%40verizon.net
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NAGDU mailing list
> > NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/david%40bakerinet.com
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 10:49:33 -0600
> From: Erika Wolf <wolf.erika102 at att.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Marion Gwizdala <blind411 at verizon.net>, Tracy Carcione
> <carcione at access.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] What NAGDU is doing about fake service dog users
> Message-ID: <333697CA-AAA1-45C9-A783-F3F2D94C5DE8 at att.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Thank you, Marione: for alerting us all of this upcoming information. I
> really appreciate all you do for NAGDU! Thank you, good day. Erika Wolf
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Feb 8, 2016, at 10:32 AM, Marion Gwizdala via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > Dear All,
> >
> > NAGDU is putting together some materials to help us start
> conversations with local businesses and the public about our mutual rights
> and responsibilities. On march 15, we will celebrate the 5th anniversary of
> our NAGDU Information & Advocacy Hotline (888-NAGDU411) which launched
> concurrently with the effective date of new Department of Justice
> implementing regulations concerning service dogs under the Americans with
> Disabilities Act. In recognition of this anniversary, we are rolling out
> our shiny updated website. Along with this roll-out, we are creating
> "Service Animals Welcome" decals that will contain our website and a QR
> code to bring the public to our website. We are also publishing an 8.5 X
> 14" glossy, full-color, four-fold brochure. These materials will help us
> get in front of proprietors and store managers to discuss the issues we
> have and offer them support and guidance on how to deal with questionable
> service dogs in their businesses. Finally, we will have two nationwide
> teleconferences to share this information - one for NFB advocates and
> another for businesses. Watch your in boxes for more information coming
> soon!
> >
> > Fraternally yours,
> >
> > Marion Gwizdala, President
> > National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
> > National Federation of the Blind
> > (813) 626-2789
> > (888) 624-3841 (Hotline)
> > President at nagdu.org
> > http://www.nagdu.org
> >
> > High expectations create unlimited potential for the blind!
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy
> Carcione via NAGDU
> > Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2016 9:27 AM
> > To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> > Cc: Tracy Carcione
> > Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fake Service Dogs Redux (Cross Posted)
> >
> > I think David's idea is excellent. I am willing to speak to local
> businesses and police about the issue, but I would welcome some guidance as
> to how to go about it. A video or an outline/script would be helpful.
> > Tracy
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David via
> NAGDU
> > Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2016 1:31 PM
> > To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> > Cc: David
> > Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fake Service Dogs Redux (Cross Posted)
> >
> > Michael, I appreciate your response. How about a NAGDU and NFB program
> to work with local Chambers of Commerce and police/sheriff departments?
> > Perhaps a video could be created to help train businesses in appropriate
> responses to misbehaving dogs and handlers? Create a campaign to train
> local activists to approach local publications, town councils, public
> agencies, and ... .
> >
> > I don't have the answers. While I am new to this issue, I'm not new to
> being visually impaired and I've dealt with a lot of tough issues in my
> life before now.
> >
> > My point is that the problem is not going to go away and we need to be
> committed to collectively decide, and act, upon a strategy in an effective
> manner. Guide schools have their own financial issues and their own
> perspectives. Transferring part of the onus to them and claiming that a
> solution is subject to circumvention are non sequitorae. That's kind of
> like saying gun manufacturers are responsible, too, and that if you
> regulate guns then only criminals will have guns.
> >
> > We are the ones who are being affected. In my opinion, saying that we
> are not willing to erode our freedoms and not accommodate legitimate
> interests of businesses and other members of the public is much like
> yelling, "Let freedom ring!" without addressing the reality of a far
> > larger power base. Their interests have a direct bearing on our
> > freedoms and if their concerns remain unresolved, they will create
> remedies that fit their, not our, interests.
> >
> > 'Just sayin'.
> >
> > David and Claire Rose in Clearwater, FL
> >
> >> On 2/6/2016 10:49 AM, Michael Hingson via NAGDU wrote:
> >> Please keep in mind that no matter the "certification" that the
> government could mandate someone on the internet will come up with a
> fraudulent version. No, certification is not the answer. We ALL need to
> help educate. The government needs to educate and empower. ALL guide dog
> schools need to take a much more active role in education and advocacy. The
> schools have as much responsibility to be a part of the solution as do we.
> >>
> >>
> >> Best Regards,
> >>
> >>
> >> Michael Hingson
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray
> >> via NAGDU
> >> Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 8:16 PM
> >> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> >> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >> Cc: Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fake Service Dogs Redux (Cross Posted)
> >>
> >> They are bogus though because you don't need one at the current time,
> those certifications. I fear that David may be right and eventually we will
> have to have ID because of all the people who are using animals
> fraudulently. As for behavior, if the dog is not behaving properly, they
> can ask it to leave whether it is a service animal or not. They need to
> understand this.
> >> Cindy Lou Ray
> >> cindyray at gmail.com
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael
> >> Babcock via NAGDU
> >> Sent: Friday, February 5, 2016 9:32 PM
> >> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> >> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >> Cc: Michael Babcock <michael at yourownpay.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fake Service Dogs Redux (Cross Posted)
> >>
> >> The worse thing is someone can get a ?certification? for there dog for
> $64+shipping online.
> >> That?s it, no training, just a certification.
> >> I wish this wasn?t the case for sure!
> >> best.
> >> michael Babcock
> >>> On Feb 5, 2016, at 3:21 PM, David via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Unfortunately, I think all this fake service dog news is stirring up a
> lot of stuff right now.
> >>>
> >>> For the record, I have been, and I am, a big Costco fan and have had
> incredible service from their employees. I am also impressed with the
> quality of their products. However, I had an incident at Costco yesterday
> where I was told by the person at the door that if Claire Rose was a
> service animal I needed to fill out a form. I told the person that I did
> not need to fill out a form, which two questions I was willing to answer,
> and that I had already answered one of them. He did not ask what Claire
> Rose did for me, and told me that it was corporate policy and that I had to
> fill out the form. I was in a hurry so I walked past him. After my denial
> of service from Uber earlier in the day, I probably was bit grumpy.
> >>>
> >>> I called and left a message for the store manager. He returned my
> call today and said that there was no form for anyone to fill out, but that
> people at the door were told to ask customers with service animals to read
> a memo informing them that Costco could not allow service animals to ride
> in carts. This sounds entirely reasonable to me from a health standpoint.
> We talked for quite a while and I think the guy at the door is going to get
> some retraining. We had a long discussion about the problem stores are
> having with fake service animals and how they feel that they are stuck once
> the person says that Fluffy is a service animal. I explained that animals
> that misbehave are very likely not service animals. He said he also
> understood that people with legitimate service animals would likely not put
> them in carts, or would their animals bark and snarl at customers.
> >>>
> >>> This problem is not going to go away, folks. Companies obviously
> believe that their hands are tied. When so many people increasingly feel
> entitled to bring their pets anywhere they wish, it is lawsuit-suicide for
> stores and restaurants to call the police in the event that it turns out
> that the dog that appears to be untrained is actually a trained epilepsy,
> insulin, or whatever, alerter, even in states where fake service animal
> legislation is in place. after all, how are police going to determine
> whether the dog is a fake, or not. The criminal statutes for faking it
> simply have no reliable method for enforcement and we will increasingly
> become the targets of suspicion and accusation. I don't think that there
> are any easy answers, but we're seeing a surge of reactions from airline
> passengers and news organizations and we need a unified solution, not a
> state by state dribble of ineffective patches.
> >>>
> >>> The public is becoming angry. Store and restaurant owners are
> becoming frustrated. We are getting angry.
> >>>
> >>> In my opinion, because of the free-for-all attitude among those who
> want pet privileges equal to ours, I think the time has come to try to
> address a federal certificate, or ID, that perhaps is training school
> triggered in the case of program trained animals, or maybe regulations
> legitimizing training school IDs. We are also going to have to bite the
> bullet and figure out how to get self-trained animals certified without
> creating yet another bureaucracy. The turmoil is not going to calm and I
> think we need to be proactive. With so many having worked so hard to win
> our protected status, it is a bit of a disappointment to think that it
> could be eroded. There is no doubt in my mind, however, that the fake dog
> issue will erode that status if we don't collectively figure out how best
> to effectively deal with it.
> >>>
> >>> David and Claire Rose in Clearwater, FL
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> NAGDU mailing list
> >>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/michael%40yourownp
> >>> ay.com
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> NAGDU mailing list
> >> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.co
> >> m
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> NAGDU mailing list
> >> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mike%40michaelhings
> >> on.com
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> NAGDU mailing list
> >> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/david%40bakerinet.c
> >> om
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NAGDU mailing list
> > NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/carcione%40access.net
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NAGDU mailing list
> > NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> >
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blind411%40verizon.net
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NAGDU mailing list
> > NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> >
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/wolf.erika102%40att.net
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2016 12:37:58 -0500
> From: "Marion Gwizdala" <blind411 at verizon.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fake Service Dogs Redux (Cross Posted)
> Message-ID: <00b601d16297$741482a0$5c3d87e0$@verizon.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> David,
>
> I am not sure if I shared with you when we met during convention
> that the NFB has a class action law suit against Uber for access denials of
> guide dog users. I regularly send our attorney additional denials to add to
> the body of evidence that Uber is engaging in a pervasive pattern of
> discrimination. I would greatly appreciate any messages between Uber and
> you
> to send to our attorney. Please send them to me at
>
> president at nagdu.org
>
> I would also strongly urge you to file an official police report
> about the incidents you face and keep us in the loop about these. The only
> way we have to put pressure where it needs to be is to have a body of
> evidence that this is an issue.
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David via NAGDU
> Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 6:21 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: David
> Subject: [NAGDU] Fake Service Dogs Redux (Cross Posted)
>
> Unfortunately, I think all this fake service dog news is stirring up a lot
> of stuff right now.
>
> For the record, I have been, and I am, a big Costco fan and have had
> incredible service from their employees. I am also impressed with the
> quality of their products. However, I had an incident at Costco yesterday
> where I was told by the person at the door that if Claire Rose was a
> service
> animal I needed to fill out a form. I told the person that I did not need
> to fill out a form, which two questions I was willing to answer, and that I
> had already answered one of them. He did not ask what Claire Rose did for
> me, and told me that it was corporate policy and that I had to fill out the
> form. I was in a hurry so I walked past him. After my denial of service
> from Uber earlier in the day, I probably was bit grumpy.
>
> I called and left a message for the store manager. He returned my call
> today and said that there was no form for anyone to fill out, but that
> people at the door were told to ask customers with service animals to read
> a
> memo informing them that Costco could not allow service animals to ride in
> carts. This sounds entirely reasonable to me from a health standpoint. We
> talked for quite a while and I think the guy at the door is going to get
> some retraining. We had a long discussion about the problem stores are
> having with fake service animals and how they feel that they are stuck once
> the person says that Fluffy is a service animal. I explained that animals
> that misbehave are very likely not service animals. He said he also
> understood that people with legitimate service animals would likely not put
> them in carts, or would their animals bark and snarl at customers.
>
> This problem is not going to go away, folks. Companies obviously believe
> that their hands are tied. When so many people increasingly feel entitled
> to bring their pets anywhere they wish, it is lawsuit-suicide for stores
> and
> restaurants to call the police in the event that it turns out that the dog
> that appears to be untrained is actually a trained epilepsy, insulin, or
> whatever, alerter, even in states where fake service animal legislation is
> in place. after all, how are police going to determine whether the dog is a
> fake, or not. The criminal statutes for faking it simply have no reliable
> method for enforcement and we will increasingly become the targets of
> suspicion and accusation. I don't think that there are any easy answers,
> but
> we're seeing a surge of reactions from airline passengers and news
> organizations and we need a unified solution, not a state by state dribble
> of ineffective patches.
>
> The public is becoming angry. Store and restaurant owners are becoming
> frustrated. We are getting angry.
>
> In my opinion, because of the free-for-all attitude among those who want
> pet
> privileges equal to ours, I think the time has come to try to address a
> federal certificate, or ID, that perhaps is training school triggered in
> the
> case of program trained animals, or maybe regulations legitimizing training
> school IDs. We are also going to have to bite the bullet and figure out how
> to get self-trained animals certified without
> creating yet another bureaucracy. The turmoil is not going to calm and
> I think we need to be proactive. With so many having worked so hard to win
> our protected status, it is a bit of a disappointment to think that it
> could
> be eroded. There is no doubt in my mind, however, that the fake dog issue
> will erode that status if we don't collectively figure out how best to
> effectively deal with it.
>
> David and Claire Rose in Clearwater, FL
>
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blind411%40verizon.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 08:48:00 -0900
> From: Bryan Gearry <bgearry at alaskafrontier.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Marion Gwizdala <blind411 at verizon.net>, 'Tracy Carcione'
> <carcione at access.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] What NAGDU is doing about fake service dog users
> Message-ID: <56B8D4D0.6000402 at alaskafrontier.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> Does Nagdu have any plans in dealing with the FAA about this? I'm
> constantly running into issues with this issue as it differs from ADA.
>
> On 2/8/2016 7:32 AM, Marion Gwizdala via NAGDU wrote:
> > Dear All,
> >
> > NAGDU is putting together some materials to help us start
> conversations with local businesses and the public about our mutual rights
> and responsibilities. On march 15, we will celebrate the 5th anniversary of
> our NAGDU Information & Advocacy Hotline (888-NAGDU411) which launched
> concurrently with the effective date of new Department of Justice
> implementing regulations concerning service dogs under the Americans with
> Disabilities Act. In recognition of this anniversary, we are rolling out
> our shiny updated website. Along with this roll-out, we are creating
> "Service Animals Welcome" decals that will contain our website and a QR
> code to bring the public to our website. We are also publishing an 8.5 X
> 14" glossy, full-color, four-fold brochure. These materials will help us
> get in front of proprietors and store managers to discuss the issues we
> have and offer them support and guidance on how to deal with questionable
> service dogs in their businesses. Finally, we will have two nationwide
> teleconferences to share this information - one for NFB advocates and
> another for businesses. Watch your in boxes for more information coming
> soon!
> >
> > Fraternally yours,
> >
> > Marion Gwizdala, President
> > National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
> > National Federation of the Blind
> > (813) 626-2789
> > (888) 624-3841 (Hotline)
> > President at nagdu.org
> > http://www.nagdu.org
> >
> > High expectations create unlimited potential for the blind!
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy
> Carcione via NAGDU
> > Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2016 9:27 AM
> > To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> > Cc: Tracy Carcione
> > Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fake Service Dogs Redux (Cross Posted)
> >
> > I think David's idea is excellent. I am willing to speak to local
> businesses and police about the issue, but I would welcome some guidance as
> to how to go about it. A video or an outline/script would be helpful.
> > Tracy
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David via
> NAGDU
> > Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2016 1:31 PM
> > To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> > Cc: David
> > Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fake Service Dogs Redux (Cross Posted)
> >
> > Michael, I appreciate your response. How about a NAGDU and NFB program
> to work with local Chambers of Commerce and police/sheriff departments?
> > Perhaps a video could be created to help train businesses in appropriate
> responses to misbehaving dogs and handlers? Create a campaign to train
> local activists to approach local publications, town councils, public
> agencies, and ... .
> >
> > I don't have the answers. While I am new to this issue, I'm not new to
> being visually impaired and I've dealt with a lot of tough issues in my
> life before now.
> >
> > My point is that the problem is not going to go away and we need to be
> committed to collectively decide, and act, upon a strategy in an effective
> manner. Guide schools have their own financial issues and their own
> perspectives. Transferring part of the onus to them and claiming that a
> solution is subject to circumvention are non sequitorae. That's kind of
> like saying gun manufacturers are responsible, too, and that if you
> regulate guns then only criminals will have guns.
> >
> > We are the ones who are being affected. In my opinion, saying that we
> are not willing to erode our freedoms and not accommodate legitimate
> interests of businesses and other members of the public is much like
> yelling, "Let freedom ring!" without addressing the reality of a far
> > larger power base. Their interests have a direct bearing on our
> > freedoms and if their concerns remain unresolved, they will create
> remedies that fit their, not our, interests.
> >
> > 'Just sayin'.
> >
> > David and Claire Rose in Clearwater, FL
> >
> > On 2/6/2016 10:49 AM, Michael Hingson via NAGDU wrote:
> >> Please keep in mind that no matter the "certification" that the
> government could mandate someone on the internet will come up with a
> fraudulent version. No, certification is not the answer. We ALL need to
> help educate. The government needs to educate and empower. ALL guide dog
> schools need to take a much more active role in education and advocacy. The
> schools have as much responsibility to be a part of the solution as do we.
> >>
> >>
> >> Best Regards,
> >>
> >>
> >> Michael Hingson
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray
> >> via NAGDU
> >> Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 8:16 PM
> >> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> >> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >> Cc: Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fake Service Dogs Redux (Cross Posted)
> >>
> >> They are bogus though because you don't need one at the current time,
> those certifications. I fear that David may be right and eventually we will
> have to have ID because of all the people who are using animals
> fraudulently. As for behavior, if the dog is not behaving properly, they
> can ask it to leave whether it is a service animal or not. They need to
> understand this.
> >> Cindy Lou Ray
> >> cindyray at gmail.com
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael
> >> Babcock via NAGDU
> >> Sent: Friday, February 5, 2016 9:32 PM
> >> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> >> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >> Cc: Michael Babcock <michael at yourownpay.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fake Service Dogs Redux (Cross Posted)
> >>
> >> The worse thing is someone can get a ?certification? for there dog for
> $64+shipping online.
> >> That?s it, no training, just a certification.
> >> I wish this wasn?t the case for sure!
> >> best.
> >> michael Babcock
> >>> On Feb 5, 2016, at 3:21 PM, David via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Unfortunately, I think all this fake service dog news is stirring up a
> lot of stuff right now.
> >>>
> >>> For the record, I have been, and I am, a big Costco fan and have had
> incredible service from their employees. I am also impressed with the
> quality of their products. However, I had an incident at Costco yesterday
> where I was told by the person at the door that if Claire Rose was a
> service animal I needed to fill out a form. I told the person that I did
> not need to fill out a form, which two questions I was willing to answer,
> and that I had already answered one of them. He did not ask what Claire
> Rose did for me, and told me that it was corporate policy and that I had to
> fill out the form. I was in a hurry so I walked past him. After my denial
> of service from Uber earlier in the day, I probably was bit grumpy.
> >>>
> >>> I called and left a message for the store manager. He returned my
> call today and said that there was no form for anyone to fill out, but that
> people at the door were told to ask customers with service animals to read
> a memo informing them that Costco could not allow service animals to ride
> in carts. This sounds entirely reasonable to me from a health standpoint.
> We talked for quite a while and I think the guy at the door is going to get
> some retraining. We had a long discussion about the problem stores are
> having with fake service animals and how they feel that they are stuck once
> the person says that Fluffy is a service animal. I explained that animals
> that misbehave are very likely not service animals. He said he also
> understood that people with legitimate service animals would likely not put
> them in carts, or would their animals bark and snarl at customers.
> >>>
> >>> This problem is not going to go away, folks. Companies obviously
> believe that their hands are tied. When so many people increasingly feel
> entitled to bring their pets anywhere they wish, it is lawsuit-suicide for
> stores and restaurants to call the police in the event that it turns out
> that the dog that appears to be untrained is actually a trained epilepsy,
> insulin, or whatever, alerter, even in states where fake service animal
> legislation is in place. after all, how are police going to determine
> whether the dog is a fake, or not. The criminal statutes for faking it
> simply have no reliable method for enforcement and we will increasingly
> become the targets of suspicion and accusation. I don't think that there
> are any easy answers, but we're seeing a surge of reactions from airline
> passengers and news organizations and we need a unified solution, not a
> state by state dribble of ineffective patches.
> >>>
> >>> The public is becoming angry. Store and restaurant owners are
> becoming frustrated. We are getting angry.
> >>>
> >>> In my opinion, because of the free-for-all attitude among those who
> want pet privileges equal to ours, I think the time has come to try to
> address a federal certificate, or ID, that perhaps is training school
> triggered in the case of program trained animals, or maybe regulations
> legitimizing training school IDs. We are also going to have to bite the
> bullet and figure out how to get self-trained animals certified without
> creating yet another bureaucracy. The turmoil is not going to calm and I
> think we need to be proactive. With so many having worked so hard to win
> our protected status, it is a bit of a disappointment to think that it
> could be eroded. There is no doubt in my mind, however, that the fake dog
> issue will erode that status if we don't collectively figure out how best
> to effectively deal with it.
> >>>
> >>> David and Claire Rose in Clearwater, FL
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> NAGDU mailing list
> >>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/michael%40yourownp
> >>> ay.com
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> NAGDU mailing list
> >> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.co
> >> m
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> NAGDU mailing list
> >> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mike%40michaelhings
> >> on.com
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> NAGDU mailing list
> >> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/david%40bakerinet.c
> >> om
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NAGDU mailing list
> > NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/carcione%40access.net
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NAGDU mailing list
> > NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> >
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blind411%40verizon.net
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NAGDU mailing list
> > NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> >
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/bgearry%40alaskafrontier.net
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 11:51:29 -0600
> From: "Cindy Ray" <cindyray at gmail.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] What NAGDU is doing about fake service dog users
> Message-ID: <046101d16299$57032fc0$05098f40$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Bryan, you mean the use of dogs by folks who are fakes?
> Cindy Lou Ray
> cindyray at gmail.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bryan Gearry
> via NAGDU
> Sent: Monday, February 8, 2016 11:48 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <
> nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Bryan Gearry <bgearry at alaskafrontier.net>; 'Tracy Carcione' <
> carcione at access.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] What NAGDU is doing about fake service dog users
>
> Does Nagdu have any plans in dealing with the FAA about this? I'm
> constantly running into issues with this issue as it differs from ADA.
>
> On 2/8/2016 7:32 AM, Marion Gwizdala via NAGDU wrote:
> > Dear All,
> >
> > NAGDU is putting together some materials to help us start
> conversations with local businesses and the public about our mutual rights
> and responsibilities. On march 15, we will celebrate the 5th anniversary of
> our NAGDU Information & Advocacy Hotline (888-NAGDU411) which launched
> concurrently with the effective date of new Department of Justice
> implementing regulations concerning service dogs under the Americans with
> Disabilities Act. In recognition of this anniversary, we are rolling out
> our shiny updated website. Along with this roll-out, we are creating
> "Service Animals Welcome" decals that will contain our website and a QR
> code to bring the public to our website. We are also publishing an 8.5 X
> 14" glossy, full-color, four-fold brochure. These materials will help us
> get in front of proprietors and store managers to discuss the issues we
> have and offer them support and guidance on how to deal with questionable
> service dogs in their businesses. Finally, we will have two nationwide
> teleconferences to share this information - one for NFB advocates and
> another for businesses. Watch your in boxes for more information coming
> soon!
> >
> > Fraternally yours,
> >
> > Marion Gwizdala, President
> > National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
> > National Federation of the Blind
> > (813) 626-2789
> > (888) 624-3841 (Hotline)
> > President at nagdu.org
> > http://www.nagdu.org
> >
> > High expectations create unlimited potential for the blind!
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy
> > Carcione via NAGDU
> > Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2016 9:27 AM
> > To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> > Cc: Tracy Carcione
> > Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fake Service Dogs Redux (Cross Posted)
> >
> > I think David's idea is excellent. I am willing to speak to local
> businesses and police about the issue, but I would welcome some guidance as
> to how to go about it. A video or an outline/script would be helpful.
> > Tracy
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David via
> > NAGDU
> > Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2016 1:31 PM
> > To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> > Cc: David
> > Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fake Service Dogs Redux (Cross Posted)
> >
> > Michael, I appreciate your response. How about a NAGDU and NFB program
> to work with local Chambers of Commerce and police/sheriff departments?
> > Perhaps a video could be created to help train businesses in appropriate
> responses to misbehaving dogs and handlers? Create a campaign to train
> local activists to approach local publications, town councils, public
> agencies, and ... .
> >
> > I don't have the answers. While I am new to this issue, I'm not new to
> being visually impaired and I've dealt with a lot of tough issues in my
> life before now.
> >
> > My point is that the problem is not going to go away and we need to be
> committed to collectively decide, and act, upon a strategy in an effective
> manner. Guide schools have their own financial issues and their own
> perspectives. Transferring part of the onus to them and claiming that a
> solution is subject to circumvention are non sequitorae. That's kind of
> like saying gun manufacturers are responsible, too, and that if you
> regulate guns then only criminals will have guns.
> >
> > We are the ones who are being affected. In my opinion, saying that we
> are not willing to erode our freedoms and not accommodate legitimate
> interests of businesses and other members of the public is much like
> yelling, "Let freedom ring!" without addressing the reality of a far
> > larger power base. Their interests have a direct bearing on our
> > freedoms and if their concerns remain unresolved, they will create
> remedies that fit their, not our, interests.
> >
> > 'Just sayin'.
> >
> > David and Claire Rose in Clearwater, FL
> >
> > On 2/6/2016 10:49 AM, Michael Hingson via NAGDU wrote:
> >> Please keep in mind that no matter the "certification" that the
> government could mandate someone on the internet will come up with a
> fraudulent version. No, certification is not the answer. We ALL need to
> help educate. The government needs to educate and empower. ALL guide dog
> schools need to take a much more active role in education and advocacy. The
> schools have as much responsibility to be a part of the solution as do we.
> >>
> >>
> >> Best Regards,
> >>
> >>
> >> Michael Hingson
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray
> >> via NAGDU
> >> Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 8:16 PM
> >> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> >> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >> Cc: Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fake Service Dogs Redux (Cross Posted)
> >>
> >> They are bogus though because you don't need one at the current time,
> those certifications. I fear that David may be right and eventually we will
> have to have ID because of all the people who are using animals
> fraudulently. As for behavior, if the dog is not behaving properly, they
> can ask it to leave whether it is a service animal or not. They need to
> understand this.
> >> Cindy Lou Ray
> >> cindyray at gmail.com
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael
> >> Babcock via NAGDU
> >> Sent: Friday, February 5, 2016 9:32 PM
> >> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> >> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >> Cc: Michael Babcock <michael at yourownpay.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fake Service Dogs Redux (Cross Posted)
> >>
> >> The worse thing is someone can get a ?certification? for there dog for
> $64+shipping online.
> >> That?s it, no training, just a certification.
> >> I wish this wasn?t the case for sure!
> >> best.
> >> michael Babcock
> >>> On Feb 5, 2016, at 3:21 PM, David via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Unfortunately, I think all this fake service dog news is stirring up a
> lot of stuff right now.
> >>>
> >>> For the record, I have been, and I am, a big Costco fan and have had
> incredible service from their employees. I am also impressed with the
> quality of their products. However, I had an incident at Costco yesterday
> where I was told by the person at the door that if Claire Rose was a
> service animal I needed to fill out a form. I told the person that I did
> not need to fill out a form, which two questions I was willing to answer,
> and that I had already answered one of them. He did not ask what Claire
> Rose did for me, and told me that it was corporate policy and that I had to
> fill out the form. I was in a hurry so I walked past him. After my denial
> of service from Uber earlier in the day, I probably was bit grumpy.
> >>>
> >>> I called and left a message for the store manager. He returned my
> call today and said that there was no form for anyone to fill out, but that
> people at the door were told to ask customers with service animals to read
> a memo informing them that Costco could not allow service animals to ride
> in carts. This sounds entirely reasonable to me from a health standpoint.
> We talked for quite a while and I think the guy at the door is going to get
> some retraining. We had a long discussion about the problem stores are
> having with fake service animals and how they feel that they are stuck once
> the person says that Fluffy is a service animal. I explained that animals
> that misbehave are very likely not service animals. He said he also
> understood that people with legitimate service animals would likely not put
> them in carts, or would their animals bark and snarl at customers.
> >>>
> >>> This problem is not going to go away, folks. Companies obviously
> believe that their hands are tied. When so many people increasingly feel
> entitled to bring their pets anywhere they wish, it is lawsuit-suicide for
> stores and restaurants to call the police in the event that it turns out
> that the dog that appears to be untrained is actually a trained epilepsy,
> insulin, or whatever, alerter, even in states where fake service animal
> legislation is in place. after all, how are police going to determine
> whether the dog is a fake, or not. The criminal statutes for faking it
> simply have no reliable method for enforcement and we will increasingly
> become the targets of suspicion and accusation. I don't think that there
> are any easy answers, but we're seeing a surge of reactions from airline
> passengers and news organizations and we need a unified solution, not a
> state by state dribble of ineffective patches.
> >>>
> >>> The public is becoming angry. Store and restaurant owners are
> becoming frustrated. We are getting angry.
> >>>
> >>> In my opinion, because of the free-for-all attitude among those who
> want pet privileges equal to ours, I think the time has come to try to
> address a federal certificate, or ID, that perhaps is training school
> triggered in the case of program trained animals, or maybe regulations
> legitimizing training school IDs. We are also going to have to bite the
> bullet and figure out how to get self-trained animals certified without
> creating yet another bureaucracy. The turmoil is not going to calm and I
> think we need to be proactive. With so many having worked so hard to win
> our protected status, it is a bit of a disappointment to think that it
> could be eroded. There is no doubt in my mind, however, that the fake dog
> issue will erode that status if we don't collectively figure out how best
> to effectively deal with it.
> >>>
> >>> David and Claire Rose in Clearwater, FL
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> NAGDU mailing list
> >>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/michael%40yourown
> >>> p
> >>> ay.com
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> NAGDU mailing list
> >> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.c
> >> o
> >> m
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> NAGDU mailing list
> >> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mike%40michaelhing
> >> s
> >> on.com
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> NAGDU mailing list
> >> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/david%40bakerinet.
> >> c
> >> om
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NAGDU mailing list
> > NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/carcione%40access.n
> > et
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NAGDU mailing list
> > NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blind411%40verizon.
> > net
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NAGDU mailing list
> > NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/bgearry%40alaskafro
> > ntier.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 09:03:01 -0900
> From: Bryan Gearry <bgearry at alaskafrontier.net>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] What NAGDU is doing about fake service dog users
> Message-ID: <56B8D855.2090709 at alaskafrontier.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> What started this was a the local news station here in Anchorage had a
> report how easy it was to get "emotional support animals" on a airplane.
> With my large Golden retriever Guide, it can be a challenge. So what
> happens is they try and accommodate my Guide as well as a bunch of yappy
> ankle biters! It's way out of control. We are stuck here in Alaska as
> not many options to go to America from here. Emotional support dogs are
> not recognized by ADA, but seem to be by the FAA.
>
> On 2/8/2016 8:51 AM, Cindy Ray via NAGDU wrote:
> > Bryan, you mean the use of dogs by folks who are fakes?
> > Cindy Lou Ray
> > cindyray at gmail.com
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bryan Gearry
> via NAGDU
> > Sent: Monday, February 8, 2016 11:48 AM
> > To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <
> nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> > Cc: Bryan Gearry <bgearry at alaskafrontier.net>; 'Tracy Carcione' <
> carcione at access.net>
> > Subject: Re: [NAGDU] What NAGDU is doing about fake service dog users
> >
> > Does Nagdu have any plans in dealing with the FAA about this? I'm
> constantly running into issues with this issue as it differs from ADA.
> >
> > On 2/8/2016 7:32 AM, Marion Gwizdala via NAGDU wrote:
> >> Dear All,
> >>
> >> NAGDU is putting together some materials to help us start
> conversations with local businesses and the public about our mutual rights
> and responsibilities. On march 15, we will celebrate the 5th anniversary of
> our NAGDU Information & Advocacy Hotline (888-NAGDU411) which launched
> concurrently with the effective date of new Department of Justice
> implementing regulations concerning service dogs under the Americans with
> Disabilities Act. In recognition of this anniversary, we are rolling out
> our shiny updated website. Along with this roll-out, we are creating
> "Service Animals Welcome" decals that will contain our website and a QR
> code to bring the public to our website. We are also publishing an 8.5 X
> 14" glossy, full-color, four-fold brochure. These materials will help us
> get in front of proprietors and store managers to discuss the issues we
> have and offer them support and guidance on how to deal with questionable
> service dogs in their businesses. Finally, we will have two nationwide
> teleconferences to share this information - one for NFB advocates and
> another for businesses. Watch your in boxes for more information coming
> soon!
> >>
> >> Fraternally yours,
> >>
> >> Marion Gwizdala, President
> >> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
> >> National Federation of the Blind
> >> (813) 626-2789
> >> (888) 624-3841 (Hotline)
> >> President at nagdu.org
> >> http://www.nagdu.org
> >>
> >> High expectations create unlimited potential for the blind!
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy
> >> Carcione via NAGDU
> >> Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2016 9:27 AM
> >> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> >> Cc: Tracy Carcione
> >> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fake Service Dogs Redux (Cross Posted)
> >>
> >> I think David's idea is excellent. I am willing to speak to local
> businesses and police about the issue, but I would welcome some guidance as
> to how to go about it. A video or an outline/script would be helpful.
> >> Tracy
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David via
> >> NAGDU
> >> Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2016 1:31 PM
> >> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> >> Cc: David
> >> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fake Service Dogs Redux (Cross Posted)
> >>
> >> Michael, I appreciate your response. How about a NAGDU and NFB program
> to work with local Chambers of Commerce and police/sheriff departments?
> >> Perhaps a video could be created to help train businesses in
> appropriate responses to misbehaving dogs and handlers? Create a campaign
> to train local activists to approach local publications, town councils,
> public agencies, and ... .
> >>
> >> I don't have the answers. While I am new to this issue, I'm not new to
> being visually impaired and I've dealt with a lot of tough issues in my
> life before now.
> >>
> >> My point is that the problem is not going to go away and we need to be
> committed to collectively decide, and act, upon a strategy in an effective
> manner. Guide schools have their own financial issues and their own
> perspectives. Transferring part of the onus to them and claiming that a
> solution is subject to circumvention are non sequitorae. That's kind of
> like saying gun manufacturers are responsible, too, and that if you
> regulate guns then only criminals will have guns.
> >>
> >> We are the ones who are being affected. In my opinion, saying that we
> are not willing to erode our freedoms and not accommodate legitimate
> interests of businesses and other members of the public is much like
> yelling, "Let freedom ring!" without addressing the reality of a far
> >> larger power base. Their interests have a direct bearing on our
> >> freedoms and if their concerns remain unresolved, they will create
> remedies that fit their, not our, interests.
> >>
> >> 'Just sayin'.
> >>
> >> David and Claire Rose in Clearwater, FL
> >>
> >> On 2/6/2016 10:49 AM, Michael Hingson via NAGDU wrote:
> >>> Please keep in mind that no matter the "certification" that the
> government could mandate someone on the internet will come up with a
> fraudulent version. No, certification is not the answer. We ALL need to
> help educate. The government needs to educate and empower. ALL guide dog
> schools need to take a much more active role in education and advocacy. The
> schools have as much responsibility to be a part of the solution as do we.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Best Regards,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Michael Hingson
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray
> >>> via NAGDU
> >>> Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 8:16 PM
> >>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> >>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >>> Cc: Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com>
> >>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fake Service Dogs Redux (Cross Posted)
> >>>
> >>> They are bogus though because you don't need one at the current time,
> those certifications. I fear that David may be right and eventually we will
> have to have ID because of all the people who are using animals
> fraudulently. As for behavior, if the dog is not behaving properly, they
> can ask it to leave whether it is a service animal or not. They need to
> understand this.
> >>> Cindy Lou Ray
> >>> cindyray at gmail.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael
> >>> Babcock via NAGDU
> >>> Sent: Friday, February 5, 2016 9:32 PM
> >>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> >>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >>> Cc: Michael Babcock <michael at yourownpay.com>
> >>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fake Service Dogs Redux (Cross Posted)
> >>>
> >>> The worse thing is someone can get a ?certification? for there dog for
> $64+shipping online.
> >>> That?s it, no training, just a certification.
> >>> I wish this wasn?t the case for sure!
> >>> best.
> >>> michael Babcock
> >>>> On Feb 5, 2016, at 3:21 PM, David via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Unfortunately, I think all this fake service dog news is stirring up
> a lot of stuff right now.
> >>>>
> >>>> For the record, I have been, and I am, a big Costco fan and have had
> incredible service from their employees. I am also impressed with the
> quality of their products. However, I had an incident at Costco yesterday
> where I was told by the person at the door that if Claire Rose was a
> service animal I needed to fill out a form. I told the person that I did
> not need to fill out a form, which two questions I was willing to answer,
> and that I had already answered one of them. He did not ask what Claire
> Rose did for me, and told me that it was corporate policy and that I had to
> fill out the form. I was in a hurry so I walked past him. After my denial
> of service from Uber earlier in the day, I probably was bit grumpy.
> >>>>
> >>>> I called and left a message for the store manager. He returned my
> call today and said that there was no form for anyone to fill out, but that
> people at the door were told to ask customers with service animals to read
> a memo informing them that Costco could not allow service animals to ride
> in carts. This sounds entirely reasonable to me from a health standpoint.
> We talked for quite a while and I think the guy at the door is going to get
> some retraining. We had a long discussion about the problem stores are
> having with fake service animals and how they feel that they are stuck once
> the person says that Fluffy is a service animal. I explained that animals
> that misbehave are very likely not service animals. He said he also
> understood that people with legitimate service animals would likely not put
> them in carts, or would their animals bark and snarl at customers.
> >>>>
> >>>> This problem is not going to go away, folks. Companies obviously
> believe that their hands are tied. When so many people increasingly feel
> entitled to bring their pets anywhere they wish, it is lawsuit-suicide for
> stores and restaurants to call the police in the event that it turns out
> that the dog that appears to be untrained is actually a trained epilepsy,
> insulin, or whatever, alerter, even in states where fake service animal
> legislation is in place. after all, how are police going to determine
> whether the dog is a fake, or not. The criminal statutes for faking it
> simply have no reliable method for enforcement and we will increasingly
> become the targets of suspicion and accusation. I don't think that there
> are any easy answers, but we're seeing a surge of reactions from airline
> passengers and news organizations and we need a unified solution, not a
> state by state dribble of ineffective patches.
> >>>>
> >>>> The public is becoming angry. Store and restaurant owners are
> becoming frustrated. We are getting angry.
> >>>>
> >>>> In my opinion, because of the free-for-all attitude among those who
> want pet privileges equal to ours, I think the time has come to try to
> address a federal certificate, or ID, that perhaps is training school
> triggered in the case of program trained animals, or maybe regulations
> legitimizing training school IDs. We are also going to have to bite the
> bullet and figure out how to get self-trained animals certified without
> creating yet another bureaucracy. The turmoil is not going to calm and I
> think we need to be proactive. With so many having worked so hard to win
> our protected status, it is a bit of a disappointment to think that it
> could be eroded. There is no doubt in my mind, however, that the fake dog
> issue will erode that status if we don't collectively figure out how best
> to effectively deal with it.
> >>>>
> >>>> David and Claire Rose in Clearwater, FL
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> NAGDU mailing list
> >>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/michael%40yourown
> >>>> p
> >>>> ay.com
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> NAGDU mailing list
> >>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
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> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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> >>> m
> >>>
> >>>
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> >>> on.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
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> >>> c
> >>> om
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/carcione%40access.n
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> >> net
> >>
> >>
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> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/bgearry%40alaskafro
> >> ntier.net
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 13:11:47 -0500
> From: Jenine Stanley <jeninems at wowway.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] What NAGDU is doing about fake service dog users
> Message-ID: <FA425549-31E3-4FED-9D43-C6F4FB2C3ACC at wowway.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Brian,
>
> There was a notice put out recently by DOT about a negotiated Rule Making
> Process regarding certain aspects of the Air Carriers Access Act. One of
> those sections would deal with service animals and ESAs. This type of rule
> making process has a group of stakeholders, including training providers
> and consumer organizations, at the table to negotiate new proposed rules.
>
> there is a strong preference among training providers of assistance dogs
> that the designation of ESA be no longer used as it is causing problems for
> our consumers and instructors who try to transport dogs. It has also been
> widely abused by members of the public who do not wish to pay pet carrying
> charges.
>
> I?m excited to hear about the NAGDU initiatives. Can?t wait to see your
> hard copy products too.
> Jenine Stanley
> jeninems at wowway.com
>
> http://www.twitter.com/jeninems
>
> > On Feb 8, 2016, at 1:03 PM, Bryan Gearry via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > What started this was a the local news station here in Anchorage had a
> report how easy it was to get "emotional support animals" on a airplane.
> With my large Golden retriever Guide, it can be a challenge. So what
> happens is they try and accommodate my Guide as well as a bunch of yappy
> ankle biters! It's way out of control. We are stuck here in Alaska as not
> many options to go to America from here. Emotional support dogs are not
> recognized by ADA, but seem to be by the FAA.
> >
> > On 2/8/2016 8:51 AM, Cindy Ray via NAGDU wrote:
> >> Bryan, you mean the use of dogs by folks who are fakes?
> >> Cindy Lou Ray
> >> cindyray at gmail.com
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Bryan
> Gearry via NAGDU
> >> Sent: Monday, February 8, 2016 11:48 AM
> >> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <
> nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >> Cc: Bryan Gearry <bgearry at alaskafrontier.net>; 'Tracy Carcione' <
> carcione at access.net>
> >> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] What NAGDU is doing about fake service dog users
> >>
> >> Does Nagdu have any plans in dealing with the FAA about this? I'm
> constantly running into issues with this issue as it differs from ADA.
> >>
> >> On 2/8/2016 7:32 AM, Marion Gwizdala via NAGDU wrote:
> >>> Dear All,
> >>>
> >>> NAGDU is putting together some materials to help us start
> conversations with local businesses and the public about our mutual rights
> and responsibilities. On march 15, we will celebrate the 5th anniversary of
> our NAGDU Information & Advocacy Hotline (888-NAGDU411) which launched
> concurrently with the effective date of new Department of Justice
> implementing regulations concerning service dogs under the Americans with
> Disabilities Act. In recognition of this anniversary, we are rolling out
> our shiny updated website. Along with this roll-out, we are creating
> "Service Animals Welcome" decals that will contain our website and a QR
> code to bring the public to our website. We are also publishing an 8.5 X
> 14" glossy, full-color, four-fold brochure. These materials will help us
> get in front of proprietors and store managers to discuss the issues we
> have and offer them support and guidance on how to deal with questionable
> service dogs in their businesses. Finally, we will have two nationwide
> teleconferences to share this information - one for NFB advocates and
> another for businesses. Watch your in boxes for more information coming
> soon!
> >>>
> >>> Fraternally yours,
> >>>
> >>> Marion Gwizdala, President
> >>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
> >>> National Federation of the Blind
> >>> (813) 626-2789
> >>> (888) 624-3841 (Hotline)
> >>> President at nagdu.org
> >>> http://www.nagdu.org
> >>>
> >>> High expectations create unlimited potential for the blind!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy
> >>> Carcione via NAGDU
> >>> Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2016 9:27 AM
> >>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> >>> Cc: Tracy Carcione
> >>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fake Service Dogs Redux (Cross Posted)
> >>>
> >>> I think David's idea is excellent. I am willing to speak to local
> businesses and police about the issue, but I would welcome some guidance as
> to how to go about it. A video or an outline/script would be helpful.
> >>> Tracy
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David via
> >>> NAGDU
> >>> Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2016 1:31 PM
> >>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> >>> Cc: David
> >>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fake Service Dogs Redux (Cross Posted)
> >>>
> >>> Michael, I appreciate your response. How about a NAGDU and NFB
> program to work with local Chambers of Commerce and police/sheriff
> departments?
> >>> Perhaps a video could be created to help train businesses in
> appropriate responses to misbehaving dogs and handlers? Create a campaign
> to train local activists to approach local publications, town councils,
> public agencies, and ... .
> >>>
> >>> I don't have the answers. While I am new to this issue, I'm not new
> to being visually impaired and I've dealt with a lot of tough issues in my
> life before now.
> >>>
> >>> My point is that the problem is not going to go away and we need to be
> committed to collectively decide, and act, upon a strategy in an effective
> manner. Guide schools have their own financial issues and their own
> perspectives. Transferring part of the onus to them and claiming that a
> solution is subject to circumvention are non sequitorae. That's kind of
> like saying gun manufacturers are responsible, too, and that if you
> regulate guns then only criminals will have guns.
> >>>
> >>> We are the ones who are being affected. In my opinion, saying that we
> are not willing to erode our freedoms and not accommodate legitimate
> interests of businesses and other members of the public is much like
> yelling, "Let freedom ring!" without addressing the reality of a far
> >>> larger power base. Their interests have a direct bearing on our
> >>> freedoms and if their concerns remain unresolved, they will create
> remedies that fit their, not our, interests.
> >>>
> >>> 'Just sayin'.
> >>>
> >>> David and Claire Rose in Clearwater, FL
> >>>
> >>> On 2/6/2016 10:49 AM, Michael Hingson via NAGDU wrote:
> >>>> Please keep in mind that no matter the "certification" that the
> government could mandate someone on the internet will come up with a
> fraudulent version. No, certification is not the answer. We ALL need to
> help educate. The government needs to educate and empower. ALL guide dog
> schools need to take a much more active role in education and advocacy. The
> schools have as much responsibility to be a part of the solution as do we.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Best Regards,
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Michael Hingson
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray
> >>>> via NAGDU
> >>>> Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 8:16 PM
> >>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> >>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >>>> Cc: Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fake Service Dogs Redux (Cross Posted)
> >>>>
> >>>> They are bogus though because you don't need one at the current time,
> those certifications. I fear that David may be right and eventually we will
> have to have ID because of all the people who are using animals
> fraudulently. As for behavior, if the dog is not behaving properly, they
> can ask it to leave whether it is a service animal or not. They need to
> understand this.
> >>>> Cindy Lou Ray
> >>>> cindyray at gmail.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael
> >>>> Babcock via NAGDU
> >>>> Sent: Friday, February 5, 2016 9:32 PM
> >>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> >>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> >>>> Cc: Michael Babcock <michael at yourownpay.com>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fake Service Dogs Redux (Cross Posted)
> >>>>
> >>>> The worse thing is someone can get a ?certification? for there dog
> for $64+shipping online.
> >>>> That?s it, no training, just a certification.
> >>>> I wish this wasn?t the case for sure!
> >>>> best.
> >>>> michael Babcock
> >>>>> On Feb 5, 2016, at 3:21 PM, David via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Unfortunately, I think all this fake service dog news is stirring up
> a lot of stuff right now.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> For the record, I have been, and I am, a big Costco fan and have had
> incredible service from their employees. I am also impressed with the
> quality of their products. However, I had an incident at Costco yesterday
> where I was told by the person at the door that if Claire Rose was a
> service animal I needed to fill out a form. I told the person that I did
> not need to fill out a form, which two questions I was willing to answer,
> and that I had already answered one of them. He did not ask what Claire
> Rose did for me, and told me that it was corporate policy and that I had to
> fill out the form. I was in a hurry so I walked past him. After my denial
> of service from Uber earlier in the day, I probably was bit grumpy.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I called and left a message for the store manager. He returned my
> call today and said that there was no form for anyone to fill out, but that
> people at the door were told to ask customers with service animals to read
> a memo informing them that Costco could not allow service animals to ride
> in carts. This sounds entirely reasonable to me from a health standpoint.
> We talked for quite a while and I think the guy at the door is going to get
> some retraining. We had a long discussion about the problem stores are
> having with fake service animals and how they feel that they are stuck once
> the person says that Fluffy is a service animal. I explained that animals
> that misbehave are very likely not service animals. He said he also
> understood that people with legitimate service animals would likely not put
> them in carts, or would their animals bark and snarl at customers.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This problem is not going to go away, folks. Companies obviously
> believe that their hands are tied. When so many people increasingly feel
> entitled to bring their pets anywhere they wish, it is lawsuit-suicide for
> stores and restaurants to call the police in the event that it turns out
> that the dog that appears to be untrained is actually a trained epilepsy,
> insulin, or whatever, alerter, even in states where fake service animal
> legislation is in place. after all, how are police going to determine
> whether the dog is a fake, or not. The criminal statutes for faking it
> simply have no reliable method for enforcement and we will increasingly
> become the targets of suspicion and accusation. I don't think that there
> are any easy answers, but we're seeing a surge of reactions from airline
> passengers and news organizations and we need a unified solution, not a
> state by state dribble of ineffective patches.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The public is becoming angry. Store and restaurant owners are
> becoming frustrated. We are getting angry.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In my opinion, because of the free-for-all attitude among those who
> want pet privileges equal to ours, I think the time has come to try to
> address a federal certificate, or ID, that perhaps is training school
> triggered in the case of program trained animals, or maybe regulations
> legitimizing training school IDs. We are also going to have to bite the
> bullet and figure out how to get self-trained animals certified without
> creating yet another bureaucracy. The turmoil is not going to calm and I
> think we need to be proactive. With so many having worked so hard to win
> our protected status, it is a bit of a disappointment to think that it
> could be eroded. There is no doubt in my mind, however, that the fake dog
> issue will erode that status if we don't collectively figure out how best
> to effectively deal with it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> David and Claire Rose in Clearwater, FL
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> NAGDU mailing list
> >>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
> for NAGDU:
> >>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/michael%40yourown
> >>>>> p
> >>>>> ay.com
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> NAGDU mailing list
> >>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.c
> >>>> o
> >>>> m
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> NAGDU mailing list
> >>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/mike%40michaelhing
> >>>> s
> >>>> on.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> NAGDU mailing list
> >>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> >>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/david%40bakerinet.
> >>>> c
> >>>> om
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> NAGDU mailing list
> >>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/carcione%40access.n
> >>> et
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> NAGDU mailing list
> >>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/blind411%40verizon.
> >>> net
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> NAGDU mailing list
> >>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> >>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/bgearry%40alaskafro
> >>> ntier.net
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> NAGDU mailing list
> >> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/cindyray%40gmail.com
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> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> NAGDU mailing list
> >> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> >> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> >>
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/bgearry%40alaskafrontier.net
> <
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/bgearry%40alaskafrontier.net
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NAGDU mailing list
> > NAGDU at nfbnet.org <mailto:NAGDU at nfbnet.org>
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org <
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org>
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> > http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jeninems%40wowway.com
> <http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jeninems%40wowway.com>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2016 16:37:11 -0500
> From: "S L Johnson" <SLJohnson25 at comcast.net>
> To: <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: [NAGDU] Happy Birthday Eva!
> Message-ID: <CA9DEACF65F24C6989067C444E3BAB6F at SLJohnson>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hello:
>
> Today is Eva?s third birthday. It is hard to believe that one year and ten
> months have passed since I was at Pilot Dogs and Mike placed the leash of a
> lovable, wonderful, intelligent, goofy 14 month old golden in my hands.
> I
> guess my little golden puppy is finally growing up. Now, I wonder when she
> will realize that she is no longer a puppy? She still acts so goofy like a
> young puppy. I ordered her a new dog bed but it did not come yet. I also
> gave her some new treats, a new Nylabone a New Nyla Dental Chew bone and
> I?m
> making a steak for dinner so I can give her a few bites too. Eva has
> received an E-card from her vet and telephone greetings from family and
> friends. I know, she really doesn?t understand it is her birthday but, I
> am
> sure celebrating. We have had a great time together and our transition
> from
> class to home and a working life together has been very smooth and easy.
> Eva is a true joy to work and I thank Pilot Dogs for giving her to me. She
> is wonderful!!
>
> Sandra and Birthday Girl Eva
> -------------- next part --------------
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> http://nfbnet.org/pipermail/nagdu_nfbnet.org/attachments/20160208/a8064da0/attachment-0001.vcf
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of NAGDU Digest, Vol 131, Issue 9
> *************************************
>
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