[NAGDU] Legit handlers with strange ideas
Wayne And Harley
k9dad at k9di.org
Wed Feb 10 16:55:25 UTC 2016
It could have been an ESA Rox.Their owners can take them aboard a flight.It was rude of her to give your dog a rawhide though....
Yours, Very Sincerely And Respectfully,
Wayne M. Scace
-------- Original message --------
From: The Pawpower Pack via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Date: 2/10/2016 10:17 (GMT-06:00)
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: The Pawpower Pack <pawpower4me at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Legit handlers with strange ideas
In December, I was on a flight from SLC home to the big chilly, and Soleil was asleep at my feet. I was seated at the window seat, and there was a woman in the aisle seat. The seat between us was empty— or so I thought.
I placed my hand in the empty seat to make sure it was empty so I could quickly place my backpack in it to retrieve some items....
And I put my hand on a dog— not Soleil. A small silky little dog. I asked the woman if it was a service dog— it had neither collar nor leash, nor any other thing. I touched it enough to tell.
It lay quietly— on the seat— during the flight. Then when I was getting my stuff together to get off the plane, I was petting Soleil's head and I literally felt the handler of the dog reach down and place a partly chewed rawhide stick into Soleil's mouth.
When I asked her to please stop, the lady grabbed her dog and made tracks for the door.
It was a very weird encounter. I don't know if the dog was an sd or not, I was just glad it behaved well. I was on a flight once where a small dog barked literally the whole time upon spotting Soleil. Barked for the whole 4 hour flight. The Flight attendents told me and I was never so thankful to be deaf. Lol.
Rox and the kitchen Bitches:
Mill'E, Laveau, Soleil
Pawpower4me at gmail.com
Sent from my iPhone
> On Feb 10, 2016, at 9:03 AM, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>
> The person saying your dog set hers off reminds me of a handler with strange ideas I was in class with years back.
> We went out on a night route, and she was incensed that we had to pass a car with 2 big dogs going nuts barking inside. The trainers should have changed the route, or called the police, or something! Outrageous! Uh, welcome to the real world, sugar.
> Tracy
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jenine Stanley via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2016 9:52 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Jenine Stanley
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] What NAGDU is doing about fake service dog users
>
>
> JYep, Tracy, it would and yes, the dog could have just been misbehaving. If it had been a service dog with the type of handler we know and love, the lady would have been trying to control it and stop the barking. she made no effort at all to do this and even accused my dog of setting hers off. He was just sitting there. it was a weird encounter. I think the gate agent went to the nearest lounge after getting us all through ticketing. This was, of all places, at Islip airport, close to GDF. go figure.
>
> This si what makes things difficult. what if the yappy dog had really been a service dog and, as we sometimes see, the handler just thought the rules didn’t apply to her? enine Stanley jeninems at wowway.com
>
> http://www.twitter.com/jeninems
>
>> On Feb 10, 2016, at 9:37 AM, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> Couldn't the yappy dog be barred, just on behavior?
>> Now, I know that my guide has occasionally acted a bit wild in the airport, just from the excitement of the thing, but all he's done is "cartoon dog paws", that thing when he's trying to go fast and his paws scrabble a bit. And I wouldn't put it past him to give a bit of a woof if he saw a bomb-sniffer dog. But he would be back under control in a couple seconds. The handler would be taking effective action to stop the unwanted behavior.
>> Doesn't the same standard hold in airports/airlines?
>> Tracy
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jenine
>> Stanley via NAGDU
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2016 9:03 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Cc: Jenine Stanley
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] What NAGDU is doing about fake service dog users
>>
>> Actually, technically Wayne, under the ACAA, an air carrier can ask to see identification or proof that the dog is a service animal if, and only if, the personnel are not convinced by the creditable verbal assurance, presence of harness, vest, tags, etc.
>>
>> The ACAA is very clear to state though that doing so, the carrier must be extremely sure it has evidence that the animal is not clearly identifiable as a service animal.
>>
>> Wehn woudl this ever happen, you may ask. Let’s limit it to guide dogs and then extend our thinking.
>>
>> Someone enters the airport and approaches the ticket counter with a dog on a leash. The person is looking around, appears to be able to read print, may even go to the kiosk and get his ticket. The dog does not appear to be doing anything that looks like work. the person might be alone or might be with other people. Let’s say he’s with his spouse who is not actively serving as a sighted guide but who is there.
>>
>> Would anyone know the dog was a guide dog? Would you believe the man if he told you he was legally blind and this was his guide dog who was trained to leash guide and whose harness is in the luggage because it’s too uncomfortable on the flight? Hmmmmm?
>>
>> I hate to say it but I know of people who have done this and who have subsequently had to show some type of identification to prove what they are stating is true. Poor judgment on the handler’s part? Not blaming the victim here but I’d say, yes.
>>
>> Now let’s say there’s another person who approaches the ticket counter by herself with a small dog in a carrying pouch on her chest. She does not appear to have any kind of disability and the dog has nothing but a collar and leash. She says it’s a seizure alert/response dog, or a hearing dog, or whatever fairly hidden disability you can think of. She’s not obligated to say anything more than something like “The dog alerts me when I’m about to have a seizure, gets help for me when I have a seizure, or alerts me to sounds or people using my name.”
>>
>> Do you shake your head at this and ask for ID? It’s a tough call. the woman and her dog could be perfectly legit. The next woman in line with the dog who is yapping from its place in her purse says exactly the same thing though. what do you do?
>>
>> Just pointing out how complicated this can get in the real world and how the ACAA has built in a small contingency for it.
>>
>> In the first woman’s case, a real situation I was in line behind once, she had a local license tag stating that her dog was a service animal and she had a card, not an Id but a business card, from the organization that had trained the dog. She told them they could call and ask about her and the dog. She handled it very well I thought, and told her so as we waited in the TSA line. She was calm and prepared. the other woman with the yappy dog was shrill and insistent and did not get the service dog designation honored.
>>
>> If this was easy, we probably wouldn’t be tlaking about it. *grin*
>> Jenine Stanley jeninems at wowway.com
>>
>> http://www.twitter.com/jeninems
>>
>>> On Feb 10, 2016, at 7:00 AM, Wayne And Harley via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The FAA, is guided ( pun definitely intended ) with regard to access on aircraft with regards to Service Dog ( and ESA ) owners by the Air Carrier Access Act ( ACAA ), not the ADA. Which includes specific additional requirements for owners of Psychiatric Service Dogs and Emotional Support Animals to provide a note, less than a year old, from the Owner's mental health care proffesional. For owners of Service Dogs of other Service Modalities ( including the Guide Modality ) the Airline has to abide by the verbal declaration of the Service Dog owner.
>>>
>>>
>>> Yours, Very Sincerely And Respectfully,
>>>
>>> Wayne M. Scace
>>>
>>> -------- Original message --------
>>> From: Bryan Gearry via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Date: 2/8/2016 11:48 (GMT-06:00)
>>> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Bryan Gearry <bgearry at alaskafrontier.net>, 'Tracy Carcione'
>>> <carcione at access.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] What NAGDU is doing about fake service dog users
>>>
>>> Does Nagdu have any plans in dealing with the FAA about this? I'm
>>> constantly running into issues with this issue as it differs from ADA.
>>>
>>>> On 2/8/2016 7:32 AM, Marion Gwizdala via NAGDU wrote:
>>>> Dear All,
>>>>
>>>> NAGDU is putting together some materials to help us start conversations with local businesses and the public about our mutual rights and responsibilities. On march 15, we will celebrate the 5th anniversary of our NAGDU Information & Advocacy Hotline (888-NAGDU411) which launched concurrently with the effective date of new Department of Justice implementing regulations concerning service dogs under the Americans with Disabilities Act. In recognition of this anniversary, we are rolling out our shiny updated website. Along with this roll-out, we are creating "Service Animals Welcome" decals that will contain our website and a QR code to bring the public to our website. We are also publishing an 8.5 X 14" glossy, full-color, four-fold brochure. These materials will help us get in front of proprietors and store managers to discuss the issues we have and offer them support and guidance on how to deal with questionable service dogs in their businesses. Finally, we will have two nationwide teleconferences to share this information - one for NFB advocates and another for businesses. Watch your in boxes for more information coming soon!
>>>>
>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>
>>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc.
>>>> National Federation of the Blind
>>>> (813) 626-2789
>>>> (888) 624-3841 (Hotline)
>>>> President at nagdu.org
>>>> http://www.nagdu.org
>>>>
>>>> High expectations create unlimited potential for the blind!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy
>>>> Carcione via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2016 9:27 AM
>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>> Cc: Tracy Carcione
>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fake Service Dogs Redux (Cross Posted)
>>>>
>>>> I think David's idea is excellent. I am willing to speak to local businesses and police about the issue, but I would welcome some guidance as to how to go about it. A video or an outline/script would be helpful.
>>>> Tracy
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David via
>>>> NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2016 1:31 PM
>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>> Cc: David
>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fake Service Dogs Redux (Cross Posted)
>>>>
>>>> Michael, I appreciate your response. How about a NAGDU and NFB program to work with local Chambers of Commerce and police/sheriff departments?
>>>> Perhaps a video could be created to help train businesses in appropriate responses to misbehaving dogs and handlers? Create a campaign to train local activists to approach local publications, town councils, public agencies, and ... .
>>>>
>>>> I don't have the answers. While I am new to this issue, I'm not new to being visually impaired and I've dealt with a lot of tough issues in my life before now.
>>>>
>>>> My point is that the problem is not going to go away and we need to be committed to collectively decide, and act, upon a strategy in an effective manner. Guide schools have their own financial issues and their own perspectives. Transferring part of the onus to them and claiming that a solution is subject to circumvention are non sequitorae. That's kind of like saying gun manufacturers are responsible, too, and that if you regulate guns then only criminals will have guns.
>>>>
>>>> We are the ones who are being affected. In my opinion, saying that we are not willing to erode our freedoms and not accommodate legitimate interests of businesses and other members of the public is much like yelling, "Let freedom ring!" without addressing the reality of a far
>>>> larger power base. Their interests have a direct bearing on our
>>>> freedoms and if their concerns remain unresolved, they will create remedies that fit their, not our, interests.
>>>>
>>>> 'Just sayin'.
>>>>
>>>> David and Claire Rose in Clearwater, FL
>>>>
>>>>> On 2/6/2016 10:49 AM, Michael Hingson via NAGDU wrote:
>>>>> Please keep in mind that no matter the "certification" that the government could mandate someone on the internet will come up with a fraudulent version. No, certification is not the answer. We ALL need to help educate. The government needs to educate and empower. ALL guide dog schools need to take a much more active role in education and advocacy. The schools have as much responsibility to be a part of the solution as do we.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael Hingson
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy
>>>>> Ray via NAGDU
>>>>> Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 8:16 PM
>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>>
>>>>> Cc: Cindy Ray
>>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fake Service Dogs Redux (Cross Posted)
>>>>>
>>>>> They are bogus though because you don't need one at the current time, those certifications. I fear that David may be right and eventually we will have to have ID because of all the people who are using animals fraudulently. As for behavior, if the dog is not behaving properly, they can ask it to leave whether it is a service animal or not. They need to understand this.
>>>>> Cindy Lou Ray
>>>>> cindyray at gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael
>>>>> Babcock via NAGDU
>>>>> Sent: Friday, February 5, 2016 9:32 PM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>>
>>>>> Cc: Michael Babcock
>>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fake Service Dogs Redux (Cross Posted)
>>>>>
>>>>> The worse thing is someone can get a “certification” for there dog for $64+shipping online.
>>>>> That’s it, no training, just a certification.
>>>>> I wish this wasn’t the case for sure!
>>>>> best.
>>>>> michael Babcock
>>>>>> On Feb 5, 2016, at 3:21 PM, David via NAGDU wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Unfortunately, I think all this fake service dog news is stirring up a lot of stuff right now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For the record, I have been, and I am, a big Costco fan and have had incredible service from their employees. I am also impressed with the quality of their products. However, I had an incident at Costco yesterday where I was told by the person at the door that if Claire Rose was a service animal I needed to fill out a form. I told the person that I did not need to fill out a form, which two questions I was willing to answer, and that I had already answered one of them. He did not ask what Claire Rose did for me, and told me that it was corporate policy and that I had to fill out the form. I was in a hurry so I walked past him. After my denial of service from Uber earlier in the day, I probably was bit grumpy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I called and left a message for the store manager. He returned my call today and said that there was no form for anyone to fill out, but that people at the door were told to ask customers with service animals to read a memo informing them that Costco could not allow service animals to ride in carts. This sounds entirely reasonable to me from a health standpoint. We talked for quite a while and I think the guy at the door is going to get some retraining. We had a long discussion about the problem stores are having with fake service animals and how they feel that they are stuck once the person says that Fluffy is a service animal. I explained that animals that misbehave are very likely not service animals. He said he also understood that people with legitimate service animals would likely not put them in carts, or would their animals bark and snarl at customers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This problem is not going to go away, folks. Companies obviously believe that their hands are tied. When so many people increasingly feel entitled to bring their pets anywhere they wish, it is lawsuit-suicide for stores and restaurants to call the police in the event that it turns out that the dog that appears to be untrained is actually a trained epilepsy, insulin, or whatever, alerter, even in states where fake service animal legislation is in place. after all, how are police going to determine whether the dog is a fake, or not. The criminal statutes for faking it simply have no reliable method for enforcement and we will increasingly become the targets of suspicion and accusation. I don't think that there are any easy answers, but we're seeing a surge of reactions from airline passengers and news organizations and we need a unified solution, not a state by state dribble of ineffective patches.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The public is becoming angry. Store and restaurant owners are becoming frustrated. We are getting angry.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In my opinion, because of the free-for-all attitude among those who want pet privileges equal to ours, I think the time has come to try to address a federal certificate, or ID, that perhaps is training school triggered in the case of program trained animals, or maybe regulations legitimizing training school IDs. We are also going to have to bite the bullet and figure out how to get self-trained animals certified without creating yet another bureaucracy. The turmoil is not going to calm and I think we need to be proactive. With so many having worked so hard to win our protected status, it is a bit of a disappointment to think that it could be eroded. There is no doubt in my mind, however, that the fake dog issue will erode that status if we don't collectively figure out how best to effectively deal with it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> David and Claire Rose in Clearwater, FL
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> np
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