[NAGDU] Dispute resolution

Tue May 10 21:36:33 UTC 2016

Julie,
I think most of these contracts actually regard *after* you leave the school or program with the dog.  My interpretation is that you won’ thold the school responsible if you get hurt while working the dog..

I also think that the main thrust of the contracts is to get people to actually think about what they are getting into.  I am not sure how enforceable they actually would be if pushed.

Cait

> On May 10, 2016, at 11:01 AM, Julie J. via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Like I said before, I haven't read through many of the contracts, so I don't know what's in there.  When people say there is a clause that they won't hold the program liable for any damages, is that just related to the dog? or does that include any aspect of the program?  What if there was a problem with the food and someone got sick?  What if there was a car accident while you were riding in the school van?  What if another participant stole things from you or caused some other serious problem?  What if there was a building fire and the alarm system was broken?
> 
> I'm honestly just curious.  Lots of things happen that aren't planned or even thought of.  When the program says they aren't liable, what exactly does this include? I'm sure there will be a million replies stating that the program will always do the right thing, but do we *know* that?  If the contract says they aren't liable, then they aren't responsible if you get food poisoning, or whiplash in a car accident, or to replace your Braille display because soda got spilled on it or any number of other things not dog related.
> 
> I don't expect there is any answer to these ponderings.  I'm just tossing it out there as food for thought.  So the next time you sign a contract, at a guide dog program or anywhere else, perhaps it will help someone to think a bit deeper about the meaning of what you are signing.
> 
> Julie
> Courage to Dare: A Blind Woman's Quest to Train her Own Guide Dog is now available! Get the book here:
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00QXZSMOC
> -----Original Message----- From: NAGDU President via NAGDU
> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 8:45 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: NAGDU President
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Dispute resolution
> 
> Tracy,
> 
> The unfortunate part of what you say is that it is true. When we
> introduced our resolution last year concerning ownership upon completion of
> training, the resolution failed because many people falsely believe a
> training program would not remove a dog without cause. This leads to a very
> convoluted discussion of what constitutes cause and who has the authority to
> assess such cause. Without ownership, a consumer has very little recourse.
> Even with ownership, as is the case with Fidelco and Southeastern, the
> contracts are so loaded in favor of the program that, I believe, a court
> might rule in favor of a consumer should it be contested. Let me share what
> I mean.
> 
> In the case of fidelco, their agreement says they transfer
> ownership, yet state Fidelco has the right to repossess the dog at any time
> at their sole and absolute discretion. Though I am not an attorney, I
> believe a court would rule it cannot be both ways. Ownership carries with it
> certain rights, one of which is the right to retain possession and not have
> that possession interfered with unless there is a legally supported
> justification for such a rescission of that ownership and cannot be done
> without due process. Therefore, fidelco cannot repossess property at their
> sole and absolute discretion, as this would be considered grand larceny un
> der the law.
> 
> As for the ownership with Southeastern guide dog, they mandate
> retirement at age 10 or 11, I do not remember which. If a consumer chooses
> to work their dog after that age, Southeastern has little recourse under the
> law. They cannot remove the dog, as this would be considered larceny, as
> well. They can repossess the harness but the consumer still has the ability
> to purchase another harness and the right to work the dog.
> 
> Those who contend a training program would not remove a dog unjustly
> has not been on my end of a telephone call with someone whose dog has been
> or is being threatened with removal without cause. Perhaps if they would put
> themselves in the places of these consumers or hear the pain I hear when I
> tell them there is nothing that can be done because they do not own the dog,
> perhaps they would change their minds!
> 
> 
> 
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tracy Carcione
> via NAGDU
> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 8:29 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: Tracy Carcione
> Subject: [NAGDU] Dispute resolution
> 
> Julie J brought up dispute resolution yesterday, and I think it's an
> interesting topic, and one that's often neglected.
> 
> I don't remember anything about dispute resolution in the contracts I've
> signed, though I may have forgotten stuff.
> 
> I do remember signing something that said I can't hold the school
> responsible for anything, pretty much.
> 
> The biggest dispute I can think of is a school saying a dog must retire or
> be repossessed, and the user saying No.  I don't think, with most schools,
> the user has any recourse, and I think that's a problem.  It doesn't come up
> with TSE, since I own my dog, and, in the end, I say what happens, right or
> wrong.
> 
> Tracy
> 
> 
> 
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