[NAGDU] service animals
Buddy Brannan
buddy at brannan.name
Tue Apr 25 13:22:24 UTC 2017
Then, as Julie points out, it doesn't really matter if it's a "real" service dog or not, whatever one of those is. Behavior is, must be, has to be the standard by which we begin to combat this problem. Especially where it's that blatant, behavior is a concrete measure of a dog's appropriateness in public venues, not to mention it's the least intrusive metric by which appropriate access can be measured. Makes things very simple, too. Bad behavior, dog gets removed, period amen. Doesn't matter at that point whether it's a "real" service dog.
--
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Phone: 814-860-3194
Mobile: 814-431-0962
Email: buddy at brannan.name
> On Apr 25, 2017, at 9:17 AM, Bob Hicks via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>
> No, my wife and I actually observed the dog howling, running around the
> restaurant and jumping up and down in the booth in which thisd other couple
> was sitting. Of course, I had to rely on my wife'S description of what was
> going on except for the howl!
>
> Have a great day!
>
> Bob Hicks
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dan Weiner via
> NAGDU
> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 3:37 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Dan Weiner <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] service animals
>
> hmm, now a question, granted, I didn't read the original post and I'm sorry
> if this is ground that was covered...did you actually experience this
> service dog running around or did the business owner just tell you about it,
> or a third party.
>
> So many times people tell stories about another guide dog or service dog
> user to me and ask me what to do or so on and I tell them "talk to that
> person" I've had it done to me, too people tell a third person about
> something they thought I did that they didn't like.
>
> So honestly I feel that if I didn't experience it I'm just not going to give
> advice, stories can sometimes be misleading. a dog running around a place
> may really just be a dog that got up once and walked around a bit without
> the owner being aware...just saying.
>
> Take care,
>
>
> Dan
>
>
>
> On 4/24/2017 12:59 PM, Bob Hicks via NAGDU wrote:
>> Yes, Tammy. I need to see what the law says for Wheeling, WV. The people
>> in this case are/were customers. thanks
>>
>> Have a great day!
>>
>> Bob Hicks
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Tami Jarvis
>> via NAGDU
>> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2017 12:07 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Tami Jarvis <tami at poodlemutt.com>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] service animals
>>
>> Bob,
>>
>> If the dog is trained to alert and/or take some action for the
>> handler's disabling anxiety, then it is a service dog, no matter what
>> it does or doesn't wear. Letting it run all over the restaurant is bad
>> handling, whether it's a service dog or not, not to mention problems
>> if the health department knows about it. Are these people owners or
>> staff, or are they customers? The restaurant has the right to bar the
>> dog, even if it is a service dog, if it is behaving badly and the
>> handler is not taking action to keep it under control. As I understand
>> it, a service dog in a place of public accommodation must be on leash
>> or under voice control, unless your state law says differently.
>>
>> Anyway, since you don't know if the woman's anxiety amounts to a
>> disability or what the dog is or is not trained to do about it,
>> there's no way for you to determine if it is a legally defined service dog
> or not.
>>
>> Tami
>>
>> On 04/24/2017 06:15 AM, Bob Hicks via NAGDU wrote:
>>> Hi. Our favorite restaurant has a couple with a small pet which they
>>> refer to asn a service animal helping the lady to cope with anxiety.
>>> I told the owner, who frequently makes over my black lab from Pilot
>>> dogs that it is not a service animal in the same sense as my Susie.
>>> Is a small dog in a sweater, no leash nor harness, allows to run all
>>> over the restaurant actually a "service animal"? thanks
>>>
>>> Have a great day!
>>>
>>> Bob Hicks
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dan Weiner
>>> via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2017 9:21 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Dan Weiner <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
>>> Subject: [NAGDU] service animals
>>>
>>> a question of curiosity...I know of service dogs and guide horses,
>>> are there any other service animals, that is to say animals that
>>> would fit the definition of service animal, individually trained for
>>> a task or tasks that mitigate a disability?
>>>
>>> I used to hear of Capuchin monkeys (sorry for spelling) trained as
>>> service animals though that seems not to be talked about much any more.
>>>
>>> Take care and enjoy the day.
>>>
>>> Dan and service dog, Parker--smile
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 4/22/2017 11:28 PM, Wayne & Harley via NAGDU wrote:
>>>> *Hello Mr. Gwizdala,
>>>> Respectfully, I must disagree with regards to using Service Animal.
>>>> It's too misleading.
>>>> I believe, and think that we should be more plain spoken and use
>>>> Service Dog. That, however, is merely my own opinion.
>>>>
>>>> Yours, Very Sincerely And Respectfully,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Wayne M. Scace
>>>>
>>>> *On 4/14/2017 10:30 AM, NAGDU President via NAGDU wrote:
>>>>> I am in agreement with Cindy. I missed this part when reading the
>>>>> measure. I believe it is a good practice for us to make sure
>>>>> legislation uses consistent terminology and that terminology should
>>>>> be "service animal" in all access legislation.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>> Marion
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National
>>>>> Federation of the Blind
>>>>> (813) 626-2789
>>>>> President at NAGDU.ORG
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not
>>>>> the characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we
>>>>> raise expectations because low expectations create barriers between
>>>>> blind people and our dreams. You can live the life you want!
>>>>> Blindness is not what holds you back.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy
>>>>> Ray via NAGDU
>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 10:44 AM
>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>> Cc: Cindy Ray
>>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] HB2992
>>>>>
>>>>> I suppose leaving it alone is a good method, but one concern I have
>>>>> about it is that it says "assistance" or "service" animal. So what
>>>>> is the difference?
>>>>> Does assistance mean as an emotional support dog? If it does, then
>>>>> what's to say the lady could say the dog was such a dog and take it
>>>>> on Amtrack?
>>>>> Cindy Lou Ray
>>>>> cindyray at gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of NAGDU
>>>>> President via NAGDU
>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 9:40 AM
>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Cc: NAGDU President <blind411 at verizon.net>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] HB2992
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>
>>>>> When the Florida bill was first introduced, we neither opposed
>>>>> nor supported it. I did express my opinion that the law was
>>>>> unenforceable; however, I do believe it could have a deterrent
>>>>> effect. I know of at least one instance in which a woman at my
>>>>> church told me she would be traveling on Amtrak and taking her
>>>>> dachshund, telling Amtrak it was a service dog.
>>>>> I told
>>>>> her about the state law and she said she would rethink her decision.
>>>>> She ended up leaving her dog at home with her daughter.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would leave this up to each affiliate to decide; however, I
>>>>> don't think there is any harm in such a law and we should follow
>>>>> the Florida affiliate's lead and neither oppose nor support it.
>>>>> Even as a deterrent, it could be helpful but, at least, is not
>>>>> harmful like some other bills we have seen introduced.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>> Marion Gwizdala
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National
>>>>> Federation of the Blind
>>>>> (813) 626-2789
>>>>> President at NAGDU.ORG
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not
>>>>> the characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we
>>>>> raise expectations because low expectations create barriers between
>>>>> blind people and our dreams. You can live the life you want!
>>>>> Blindness is not what holds you back.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie
>>>>> Johnson via NAGDU
>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 9:32 AM
>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>>>> Cc: Julie Johnson
>>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] HB2992
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, it's a nice idea, but the big problems I see with it are:
>>>>> 1. who decides if a person has a disability? remember we are
>>>>> talking about every conceivable disability, not just blindness.
>>>>> 2. who decides if the dog is task trained? Again, we are talking
>>>>> about all disabilities and all types of service dogs. People with
>>>>> seizures don't have them on cue to demonstrate the dog's skills.
>>>>>
>>>>> A law like this, while well intention, is for all practical
>>>>> purposes unenforceable as written. It further has the potential to
>>>>> significantly violate any privacy disabled people have regarding
>>>>> their
>> disability.
>>>>> I know
>>>>> blind people don't have an issue with the privacy part, but other
>>>>> groups of disabled folks absolutely do. How about a veteran with
>>>>> post traumatic stress disorder having to explain the death and
>>>>> mayhem he witnessed and the effects on his life to a clerk at the
>>>>> grocery store.
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe this was covered in the law in some way that protects
>>>>> disabled folks from being questioned everywhere we go and maybe there
> are
>>>>> provisions to address the privacy concerns. I didn't go read the
>>>>> proposed law in it's entirety.
>>>>>
>>>>> Julie
>>>>> On 4/14/2017 7:12 AM, Howard J. Levine via NAGDU wrote:
>>>>>> By: Neave H.B. No. 2992
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A BILL TO BE ENTITLED
>>>>>> AN ACT
>>>>>> relating to assistance animals used by persons with
>>>>>> disabilities
>>>>>> and to the prosecution of the offense of misrepresenting an
> animal
>>>>>> as an assistance animal.
>>>>>> BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF TEXAS:
>>>>>> SECTION 1. Section 121.002(1), Human Resources Code, is
>>>>>> amended to read as follows:
>>>>>> (1) "Assistance animal" and "service animal" mean
> a
>>>>>> canine that is specially trained or equipped to do work or
> perform
>>>>>> tasks to help a person with a disability and that is used by
>>>>>> a person
>>>>>> with a disability.
>>>>>> SECTION 2. Section 121.006, Human Resources Code, is
>>>>>> amended by amending Subsection (a) and adding Subsection (a-1)
> to
>>>>>> read as follows:
>>>>>> (a) A person commits an offense if the person fits an
> [who
>>>>>> uses a service] animal with a harness, collar, vest, sign, tag,
> or
>>>>>> leash of the type commonly used by persons with disabilities
>>>>>> who use
>>>>>> trained animals so that the person can gain access, permission,
> or
>>>>>> benefits provided to persons with disabilities who use
> assistance
>>>>>> animals by representing[, in order to represent] that the [his
> or
>>>>>> her] animal is a specially trained service animal or assistance
>>>>>> animal when training has not in fact been provided or is not
> being
>>>>>> provided
>>>>>> .
>>>>>> (a-1) An offense under Subsection (a)[,] is [guilty of]
> a
>>>>>> misdemeanor punishable [and on conviction shall be punished] by:
>>>>>> (1) a fine of not more than $300; and
>>>>>> (2) 30 hours of community service to be
>>>>>> performed for a
>>>>>> governmental entity or nonprofit organization that primarily
>>>>>> serves persons with visual impairments or other disabilities, or
>>>>>> for another entity or organization at the discretion of the
> court,
>>>>>> to be completed in not more than one year.
>>>>>> SECTION 3. The changes in law made by this Act to
> Section
>>>>>> 121.006, Human Resources Code, apply only to an offense
> committed
>>>>>> on or after the effective date of this Act. An offense committed
>>>>>> before the effective date of this Act is governed by the law in
>>>>>> effect when the offense was committed, and the former law is
>>>>>> continued in effect for that purpose. For purposes of this
>>>>>> section,
>>>>>> an offense was committed before the effective date of this Act
> if
>>>>>> any element of the offense occurred before that date.
>>>>>> SECTION 4. This Act takes effect September 1,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Buddy
>>>>>> Brannan
>>>>> via
>>>>>> NAGDU
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 5:13 AM
>>>>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>>>>>> Users
>>>>>> Cc: Buddy Brannan
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] HB2992
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <broken_record>
>>>>>> I think this bill, well intentioned as it is, and as most of this
>>>>>> sort do, is coming at the issue from the wrong angle, judging only
>>>>>> by your summary
>>>>> of
>>>>>> it.
>>>>>> </broken_record>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>>>>>> Phone: 814-860-3194
>>>>>> Mobile: 814-431-0962
>>>>>> Email: buddy at brannan.name
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Apr 14, 2017, at 1:55 AM, Jessica N. Naert via NAGDU
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Some of us have discussed this a little bit before. On Monday in
>>>>>>> Texas,
>>>>> HB
>>>>>> 2992 is going to committee to be discussed. Victoria Neave's
>>>>>> office
>>>>> authored
>>>>>> this bill. Here is what it hopes to accomplish:
>>>>>>> Would provide that a person commits a misdemeanor offense when
>>>>>>> they
>>>>>> falsely represent their animal as a service animal in order to
>>>>>> gain
>>>>> access,
>>>>>> permission, or benefits reserved for people with disabilities who
>>>>>> use service animals. False representation would occur when a
>>>>>> person fits an animal with a harness, collar, vest, sign, tag, or
>>>>>> leash of the type commonly used by service animals when the animal
>>>>>> has not in fact been specially trained.
>>>>>>> For the actual language of the bill:
>>>>>>> http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/tlodocs/85R/billtext/html/HB02992I.
>>>>>>> htm
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What do you all think?
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>> me
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>>>>
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