[NAGDU] Apprentice Instructor

Star Gazer pickrellrebecca at gmail.com
Mon Aug 7 12:39:16 UTC 2017 

			Preach Buddy and Margo, preach!

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of margo Downey via
NAGDU
Sent: Monday, August 7, 2017 2:18 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: margo Downey <margo.downey at roadrunner.com>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Apprentice Instructor

Oh, the words "let's be realistic" can be so limiting.  I've done a lot of
things that I supposedly realistically can't or shouldn't do as a blind
person.  I also don't like to hear that you have to see to do whatever.  In
almost all cases, that isn't true.

Margo and Isis

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Buddy Brannan via
NAGDU
Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2017 10:25 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Buddy Brannan
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Apprentice Instructor

Ah. The three words that are the bane of my existence. "Let's be realistic".
You know, realistically, blind people can't be doctors either, but there are
some. Realistically, blind people can't fly planes or pilot sailboats, but
there are some who do that, too. Realistically, blind people can't teach
other blind people to travel safely with a white cane, yes, even in very
busy cities, but there are a boatload that do that, too.
Realistically, blind people can't cook on a stove, or use a barbecue that
has charcoal in it, or raise children, but we do those things, too. I'm just
saying, my reality isn't your reality, apparently, because, let's be
realistic, blind people can and do all the things sighted people do that we
realistically can't. What makes guide dog training so special? You can't say
on the one hand that we can do anything, but let's be realistic, we can't.
And, by the way, I question anyone's belief in our capabilities who would
say, "Well, more power to 'em, but I'd never trust another blind person
to..." (fill in the blank with whatever you like, and most people
have.) 

--
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Mobile (preferred): (814) 431-0962
Phone: (814) 860-3194
Email: buddy at brannan.name



> On Aug 6, 2017, at 9:20 PM, S L Johnson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
wrote:
> 
> Jody:
> 
> I agree, that would be a perfect job for a blind person at a guide dog 
> school.  I think blind people could do all the training and even do 
> most of the work on class.  However, there is still the need for sight 
> to truly evaluate the team to be sure they are traveling safely in all 
> situations, especially in very heavy traffic or in difficult areas.
> Yes, I know as blind people we can do anything sighted people can do 
> but, let's be realistic, there will always be some things we cannot do 
> because they require vision.  I also think the guide dog schools would 
> have trouble convincing their insurance companies that blind 
> instructors were a safe idea for their students.  Pilot Dogs has their 
> trainers work their dogs under blindfold.  I am not sure about the 
> other
schools.
> 
> Sandra
> SLJohnson25 at comcast.net
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jody ianuzzi via NAGDU
> Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2017 7:52 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Jody ianuzzi
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Apprentice Instructor
> 
> I actually think the best job for a blind apprentice trainer at a 
> guide dog school would be to act as a test pilot for dogs before they 
> are issued to know handlers. I think only a blind handler knows what 
> to expect from the dog and when and where. It might be considered a 
> finishing test
> 
> JODY
> 
> thunderwalker321 at gmail.com
> 
> "What's within you is stronger than what's in your way."  NO BARRIERS 
> Erik Weihenmayer
> 
>> On Aug 6, 2017, at 7:45 PM, Julie Johnson via NAGDU 
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>> 
>> I have also helped others with owner training.  We all lived.
>> 
>> When I am working with a person who is new to dog travel, I stay 
>> right with them, usually just a pace behind.  I am listening to the 
>> traffic and will move in front if I have even a glimmer of doubt that 
>> the dog isn't going to stop.  I use a cane and will cross my cane in 
>> front of the person and dog to block them from entering the street if 
>> necessary.  If there is no traffic on the street, I will stay behind 
>> and let the person figure out if the dog ran the curb.
>> 
>> I believe blind people can be guide dog trainers and even 
>> instructors, but we aren't going to be able to do it in the same 
>> exact way that sighted people do these jobs.  The results can be the 
>> same, but the methods are going to have to include alternative
approaches.
>> 
>> Maybe this means team teaching, maybe it's using a reader or 
>> something like Aira.  Maybe it's 1 on 1 teaching with students, maybe 
>> it's something else. I don't know. The first step will be to find or 
>> create a training program willing to make it work.  There is going to 
>> have to be the sincere commitment to be flexible with experimenting 
>> with different approaches and the understanding that it will take 
>> some
trial and error before finding
>> the right tools and techniques.   Right now, I don't think there is any 
>> training program with this level of commitment to employing blind 
>> people in this capacity.
>> 
>> Julie
>> On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com 
>> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
>> also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall 
>> <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?sto
>> reid=1916046> -----Original Message----- From: S L Johnson via NAGDU
>> Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2017 3:37 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Cc: S L Johnson
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Apprentice Instructor
>> 
>> Cindy:
>> 
>> I know we have blind people training their own dogs.  I think the 
>> issue with the schools is that a blind person could not see to know 
>> what is happening with the students and dogs in the street.  Just 
>> think of how many times a trainer has to step in to rescue somebody 
>> when the dog is not paying attention or the person is not following 
>> the dog correctly and is ready to crash into something or end up out 
>> in traffic.  I know it has happened to me a few times.  If a sighted 
>> instructor was not there I would have been injured or hit by a car.
>> It does happen sometimes when a dog just decides it does not want to 
>> work and is not safe.  The trainers are always watching as we move 
>> around the building and when we are working our dogs out in the 
>> street.  When a blind person is training their own dog they only have 
>> themselves to worry about not an entire class of students.  As I said 
>> before I think the schools should hire blind people to assist with 
>> training the dogs and to help out on class along with the sighted 
>> instructors.
>> Unfortunately I do not think this will ever happen but we can always 
>> hope things will change.
>> 
>> Sandra
>> 
>> -----Original Message----- From: Cindy Ray via NAGDU
>> Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2017 4:05 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Cc: Cindy Ray
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Apprentice Instructor
>> 
>> I have to wonder why an instructor could not be blind. After all, we 
>> have blind people training their own dogs who are blind. What would 
>> the real difference be? I used to feel as you do, Sandra, but I'm not 
>> so sure I do now.
>> Cindy Lou Ray
>> cindyray at gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of S L 
>> Johnson via NAGDU
>> Sent: Sunday, August 6, 2017 3:00 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users 
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: S L Johnson <SLJohnson25 at comcast.net>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Apprentice Instructor
>> 
>> Hello:
>> 
>> I do think the schools should consider hiring blind people as 
>> training assistants.  However, a blind person could not be a full 
>> instructor.  The instructors have to be able to see what is happening 
>> with the students and dogs.  It would be a question of safety.
>> 
>> Sandra
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Buddy Brannan via NAGDU
>> Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2017 3:32 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Cc: Buddy Brannan
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Apprentice Instructor
>> 
>> GDB had a pilot program that they set up to fail once. Otherwise, 
>> none of the schools would even think about hiring a blind 
>> apprentice...they might then have to think about graduating one to a 
>> full instructor, and...well...we just can't have that.
>> 
>> --
>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>> Mobile (preferred): (814) 431-0962
>> Phone: (814) 860-3194
>> Email: buddy at brannan.name
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Aug 6, 2017, at 1:27 PM, Haylie Gallacher via NAGDU 
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Anyone know if any of the guide dog schools have ever hired a a 
>>> blind apprentice instructor?  If so, which ones?  I am thinking 
>>> about being a guide dog instructor is why I am asking.
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> 
>>> Haylieof
>>> 
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