[NAGDU] Obedience and "down"

Andy B. sonfire11 at gmail.com
Mon Aug 21 17:45:12 UTC 2017


We went to the store today. Down was a lifesaver in certain cases, and it
also proved useful when he had to rest for extended amounts of time. We are
also learning to heal for extended periods of time while I get the items on
my shopping list. He startles when riding the bus, but settles after a few
minutes. We ate dinner at the table last night, and he did it without
getting up. According to Seeing Eye, I should keep him on leash up to 3
weeks after getting home. This allows him to learn the house rules in a safe
and controlled environment.

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie Johnson via
NAGDU
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2017 7:37 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Julie Johnson <julielj at neb.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Obedience and "down"

I am getting messages out of order, so I didn't see the previous message
until later.

Anyway, you could practice the downs at home while you're eating, watching
TV, working at the computer etc.  I owner train my dogs and this is exactly
how they learn to under and down before they ever set foot in a restaurant. 
We practice at home first at the dining room table.  I just have a cup of
coffee or a snack.  I keep the time short.  Then as they get better with it,
I increase the times to include a complete family supper.  Later I will
practice when sitting on the couch with food, at my desk with food and even
sitting on the floor with food.

If it were me, I'd stop doing the single marathon session of obedience and
do a number of very short practices throughout the day.  I'd do at least
part of it off leash in your home to avoid him associating the leash with
needing to listen.  I'd integrate his obedience as much as possible with
normal daily activities, so your working at the computer, he does a down
stay under the desk or whatever makes sense.

He's young and you are a new team.  It's going to take time to work out all
the details.  Honestly though, it sounds like he's a lovely dog and you have
most of it working smoothly already.  Remember he's not a machine and
perfection is just an illusion.

Good luck!
Julie
On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
<https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?storeid=19
16046>
-----Original Message-----
From: Andy B. via NAGDU
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2017 3:32 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Cc: Andy B.
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Obedience and "down"

Hi,

As stated in another message, he is a black lab trained by The Seeing Eye.
For the record, he is 22 months old. When we came home, TSE told me to keep
working on obedience training with him, especially with the down command. In
those obedience sets, he needed to practice keeping out of the way and
staying close to my side. He always has a tendency to sit or lay behind and
to the left or right of the chair at the table when it should be under the
table at my feet or at the left or right side.
The entire point is to have him lay down under the table or on the immediate
left/right of my chair and rest, to minimize the amount of times he stands
up at dinner, and keep him out of the way. I never had to high collar him in
private. At most, it takes a light correction before we are on track again.
Most commands I can find a purpose for. However, down is not one I have a
reason for him to use at home on a regular basis.


-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie Johnson via
NAGDU
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2017 2:39 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Julie Johnson <julielj at neb.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Obedience and "down"

Is this dog a GSD, or perhaps a Doberman?  I'm  guessing by what you are
sharing that he is a high drive dog, with a lot of initiative, and self
confidence    If I'm write, then I think the problem is that he needs a
reason for your commands to make sense.  Sit for the sake of sitting
probably doesn't make any sense to him, no need for it, so why do it.

My Doberman is like this.  I don't do long sessions of rote obedience.  It
works better if I work it into our daily routine...I'm making the bed, she's
practicing down stay.  I'm cooking, she's in the dining room in a stay.  I'm
brushing the other dog, she's sitting...or whatever.  If I give her
obedience commands mixed in with our daily routine, then she's agreeable.
If I tried to do one long marathon session, she'd mutiny about 3 minutes in.

I look at it like this, I can work against her nature or I can work with
her.  She's a very smart dog.  She doesn't need all the practice at
obedience to be good at it.  Obedience practice is purely for her to keep in
the habit of listening to me.  If she listens and respects me, then I'm good
with it.  If that means obedience gets sprinkled in throughout the day for
her to feel like she's doing something useful and for it to make sense to
her, then that's okay with me.

Also increasing the intensity of corrections probably isn't going to help.
I think upping the corrections is likely to lead down the path of physical
power struggle.  That is not a good place to be.  You don't want the sole
reason for your dog to behave to land squarely on how hard you can correct
if he doesn't comply.  The first time you need him to do something when he's
off leash and he realizes you can't correct, you have lost.  His compliance
of your commands needs to be reliant on his respect and admiration of you.
Corrections may be a part of that, but it's a mistake to rely solely on
them.  It's also a mistake to rely solely on food.  They are both extremes.

What is your reasoning behind wanting a perfectly aligned sit or down?
There are ways to improve these behaviors, but for me I only have so much
time and energy in a day.  I put my effort where it is going to have the
highest pay off.  Personally I don't care if my dogs lie in the library lion
position, on their side, or whatever else way they choose. What I want is
for them to be out of the way, in the same place, until I release them.

So maybe the long and short of all of this is to ask yourself why am I doing

obedience with my dog?   Then  is what I'm doing getting the results I want?

And finally is there a better way of getting what I want, while working with
my dog instead of against him?

Julie
On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com
http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
<https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?storeid=19
16046>
-----Original Message-----
From: Andy B. via NAGDU
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2017 10:37 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Cc: Andy B.
Subject: [NAGDU] Obedience and "down"

Hi,



I am having a slight issue with the down command, especially in daily
obedience. It appears that he gets bored with the idea, then does nothing to
respond. Usually a light to moderate leash correction fixes the problem for
that instance of the down command. However, subsequent ones require harsher
corrections, or giving him a break for a while. We can usually get through
4-5 exercise routines before he gets bored with it. Here is what I normally
do each day:

Heal-come-set 3 times, sit-down 4 times, 3 sets of rest, sit-down 4 more
times (he gets bored here), heal-come-sit 3 times, then sit-down a few more
times, and wrap it up with a few rests or sit-downs. What is the best way to
get him interested in doing this again? A high collar correction was
recommended for every instance of disobedience, and for extra measure of
discipline, give him a high collar even if he does what is required, but my
mind still thinks it is a little harsh. How do you get over this problem? He
also falls out of perfect form. Is there a way I can enforce good obedience
form? For example, when he sits, most of the time he sits facing me and
slightly to the left of my left shoulder. When he lays down, he sticks his
butt out so his head is pointed at me, and lays on his left side so he can
look at me. He should be on the left at all times, not in these weird
positions.



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