[NAGDU] Obedience and "down"

Mon Aug 21 19:41:47 UTC 2017

We arrived home from Seeing Eye on Wed of last week 😊

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie Johnson via NAGDU
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2017 1:56 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Julie Johnson <julielj at neb.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Obedience and "down"

Oh! Wow!  I didn't realize you were that new of a team.  Yes, leash for a few weeks is definitely a good idea.  Eventually though, I'd incorporate off leash obedience exercises.  All in good time though.

Julie
On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall <https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?storeid=1916046>
-----Original Message-----
From: Andy B. via NAGDU
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2017 12:45 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Cc: Andy B.
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Obedience and "down"

We went to the store today. Down was a lifesaver in certain cases, and it also proved useful when he had to rest for extended amounts of time. We are also learning to heal for extended periods of time while I get the items on my shopping list. He startles when riding the bus, but settles after a few minutes. We ate dinner at the table last night, and he did it without getting up. According to Seeing Eye, I should keep him on leash up to 3 weeks after getting home. This allows him to learn the house rules in a safe and controlled environment.

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie Johnson via NAGDU
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2017 7:37 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Julie Johnson <julielj at neb.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Obedience and "down"

I am getting messages out of order, so I didn't see the previous message until later.

Anyway, you could practice the downs at home while you're eating, watching TV, working at the computer etc.  I owner train my dogs and this is exactly how they learn to under and down before they ever set foot in a restaurant.
We practice at home first at the dining room table.  I just have a cup of coffee or a snack.  I keep the time short.  Then as they get better with it, I increase the times to include a complete family supper.  Later I will practice when sitting on the couch with food, at my desk with food and even sitting on the floor with food.

If it were me, I'd stop doing the single marathon session of obedience and do a number of very short practices throughout the day.  I'd do at least part of it off leash in your home to avoid him associating the leash with needing to listen.  I'd integrate his obedience as much as possible with normal daily activities, so your working at the computer, he does a down stay under the desk or whatever makes sense.

He's young and you are a new team.  It's going to take time to work out all the details.  Honestly though, it sounds like he's a lovely dog and you have most of it working smoothly already.  Remember he's not a machine and perfection is just an illusion.

Good luck!
Julie
On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
<https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?storeid=19
16046>
-----Original Message-----
From: Andy B. via NAGDU
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2017 3:32 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Cc: Andy B.
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Obedience and "down"

Hi,

As stated in another message, he is a black lab trained by The Seeing Eye.
For the record, he is 22 months old. When we came home, TSE told me to keep working on obedience training with him, especially with the down command. In those obedience sets, he needed to practice keeping out of the way and staying close to my side. He always has a tendency to sit or lay behind and to the left or right of the chair at the table when it should be under the table at my feet or at the left or right side.
The entire point is to have him lay down under the table or on the immediate left/right of my chair and rest, to minimize the amount of times he stands up at dinner, and keep him out of the way. I never had to high collar him in private. At most, it takes a light correction before we are on track again.
Most commands I can find a purpose for. However, down is not one I have a reason for him to use at home on a regular basis.

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Julie Johnson via NAGDU
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2017 2:39 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Julie Johnson <julielj at neb.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Obedience and "down"

Is this dog a GSD, or perhaps a Doberman?  I'm  guessing by what you are sharing that he is a high drive dog, with a lot of initiative, and self
confidence    If I'm write, then I think the problem is that he needs a
reason for your commands to make sense.  Sit for the sake of sitting probably doesn't make any sense to him, no need for it, so why do it.

My Doberman is like this.  I don't do long sessions of rote obedience.  It works better if I work it into our daily routine...I'm making the bed, she's practicing down stay.  I'm cooking, she's in the dining room in a stay.  I'm brushing the other dog, she's sitting...or whatever.  If I give her obedience commands mixed in with our daily routine, then she's agreeable.
If I tried to do one long marathon session, she'd mutiny about 3 minutes in.

I look at it like this, I can work against her nature or I can work with her.  She's a very smart dog.  She doesn't need all the practice at obedience to be good at it.  Obedience practice is purely for her to keep in the habit of listening to me.  If she listens and respects me, then I'm good with it.  If that means obedience gets sprinkled in throughout the day for her to feel like she's doing something useful and for it to make sense to her, then that's okay with me.

Also increasing the intensity of corrections probably isn't going to help.
I think upping the corrections is likely to lead down the path of physical power struggle.  That is not a good place to be.  You don't want the sole reason for your dog to behave to land squarely on how hard you can correct if he doesn't comply.  The first time you need him to do something when he's off leash and he realizes you can't correct, you have lost.  His compliance of your commands needs to be reliant on his respect and admiration of you.
Corrections may be a part of that, but it's a mistake to rely solely on them.  It's also a mistake to rely solely on food.  They are both extremes.

What is your reasoning behind wanting a perfectly aligned sit or down?
There are ways to improve these behaviors, but for me I only have so much time and energy in a day.  I put my effort where it is going to have the highest pay off.  Personally I don't care if my dogs lie in the library lion position, on their side, or whatever else way they choose. What I want is for them to be out of the way, in the same place, until I release them.

So maybe the long and short of all of this is to ask yourself why am I doing

obedience with my dog?   Then  is what I'm doing getting the results I want?

And finally is there a better way of getting what I want, while working with my dog instead of against him?

Julie
On The Go with Guide-and-Service-Dogs.com http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
also find my products in the Blind Mice Mega Mall
<https://www.blindmicemegamall.com/bmm/shop/Directory_Departments?storeid=19
16046>
-----Original Message-----
From: Andy B. via NAGDU
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2017 10:37 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Cc: Andy B.
Subject: [NAGDU] Obedience and "down"

Hi,

I am having a slight issue with the down command, especially in daily obedience. It appears that he gets bored with the idea, then does nothing to respond. Usually a light to moderate leash correction fixes the problem for that instance of the down command. However, subsequent ones require harsher corrections, or giving him a break for a while. We can usually get through
4-5 exercise routines before he gets bored with it. Here is what I normally do each day:

Heal-come-set 3 times, sit-down 4 times, 3 sets of rest, sit-down 4 more times (he gets bored here), heal-come-sit 3 times, then sit-down a few more times, and wrap it up with a few rests or sit-downs. What is the best way to get him interested in doing this again? A high collar correction was recommended for every instance of disobedience, and for extra measure of discipline, give him a high collar even if he does what is required, but my mind still thinks it is a little harsh. How do you get over this problem? He also falls out of perfect form. Is there a way I can enforce good obedience form? For example, when he sits, most of the time he sits facing me and slightly to the left of my left shoulder. When he lays down, he sticks his butt out so his head is pointed at me, and lays on his left side so he can look at me. He should be on the left at all times, not in these weird positions.

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