[NAGDU] Guide dogs in school districts

Fri Feb 10 18:39:36 UTC 2017

The other person who got there dog in high school is Meghan Whalen.
She is a grad of both TSE and GDD. She is not currently on the list, I
do not think. Let me know if Ann you or the student would like her
email address. I am sure she wouldn't mind chatting about her
experience if she has the time.

On 2/10/17, Raul A. Gallegos via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Danielle, not sure if your message was specifically directed at me. So here
> goes either way. In my case specifically, I thought I was mature enough at
> the time when I have my first dog, but in retrospect I was not. It was
> definitely not a wasted effort and I don't feel that I shouldn't have gotten
> a dog. However I do feel that perhaps I got the dog a bit too early for my
> personal maturity level. Had someone asked me this at the time, I would of
> course said that I was perfectly ready able and mature to handle anything.
> In fact, it has been that sort of drive which has helped me mature over the
> years. I don't know that I could have successfully advocated for myself in a
> situation like what has been described for high school students. This is
> mainly because when I was 17, 18, and 19, I wasn't yet fully excepting of my
> blindness. This is because I slowly went blind throughout high school, from
> the age of 14 on until 17. In some ways, I got the first dog because I felt
> that it would enhance or make my mobility better. Now that I look back at
> things, that is not the reason why I have my new dog. I have my new dog to
> have a different kind of mobility, not necessarily better. Also at the time,
> my cane skills were not as good as they are now. Again, having to do with my
> acceptance of blindness. I was one of those handlers who would often get
> frustrated with the dog for not finding a certain thing yet I was the one
> who didn't know where I was in the first place to help direct him correctly.
> So my experiences from before, plus my maturity over the years, plus the new
> training styles of today, I think will all work in a positive way for me to
> be a much better dog handler with my new one now. As of today, I still am
> technically not allowed to go into a lot of details of the new dog because
> of the home training I am receiving. However what I can say is that things
> are going well and I can't wait to brag about the new addition to the team.
>
> Thanks!
>
> --
> Raul A. Gallegos
> Assistive Technology Trainer - RGA Tech Solutions
>
> Mobile: 832.554.7285
> Work: 832.639.4477
> Personal Email: raul at raulgallegos.com
> Work Email: training at rgats.com
>
> “Any teacher that can be replaced with a computer, deserves to be.” – David
> Thornburg
>
>
>> On Feb 10, 2017, at 10:16 AM, Danielle Sykora via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I received my dog 2.5 years ago, between my junior and senior years of
>> high school. I definitely do not regret that decision, and the dog was
>> overall an extremely positive experience in my life. That's not to say
>> I never had any issues. For example, I had a bus driver try to require
>> me to sit in a specific seat, needed to prompt disciplinary action
>> against students who repeatedly barked at my dog, and a teacher
>> repeatedly asking to pet the dog after being told she couldn't. Really
>> though, I had no more problems in high school than I do now in college
>> or out in public. If anything, I've had more access issues and lack of
>> knowledge of service dog law at my university than I did in high
>> school.
>>
>> Here's how I handled it: **this will probably be long**
>> I told my case manager I was applying for a dog, and let her know when
>> I received a class date. I gave her the contact information for GDF's
>> consumer services office if she had any questions I could not yet
>> answer, but did not provide any documentation/"certification" for the
>> dog. I'm pretty sure my IEP just said I had a service dog as an
>> accommodation.
>>
>> I arranged for someone to meet me at a side door during lunch time so
>> they could let me back in after I took my dog out to relieve.
>> Generally Thai relieved without an issue during this time, but if not,
>> I would leave class a minute or two early/show up a minute or two late
>> if I needed to take him out between periods. It was never an official
>> accommodation that I would be allowed to do this, but I would
>> strategically pick classes that were close together with teachers who
>> I had a good relationship with, and there were never any problems. I
>> never left class early to travel to the next class. If anything, it
>> was much easier to navigate the hallways with a dog compared to the
>> cane. The same goes for fire drills. Thai was genuinely thrilled with
>> fire alarms, because it meant going outside. GDF of course knew I was
>> a high school student, so they specifically matched me with a dog who
>> could handle dense crowds, was not people distracted, and could handle
>> all of my extracurricular activities.
>>
>> GDF put me in contact with an advocacy organization for individuals
>> under the age of 18 who use service dogs, called Canines for Disabled
>> Kids. They sent someone to give a presentation at the faculty meeting
>> before the beginning of the year, and again to the students on the
>> first day of school. She gave a general overview of service dog tasks,
>> the relationship between dog and handler, the ADA,  and service dog
>> ettiquet. I would have given this presentation myself if necessary of
>> course, but I feel it was more influential having someone that:
>> 1. Had worked extensively with minors with service dogs in the past. and
>> 2. Used a service dog herself, who was a seasoned three-year-old dog
>> and not a ridiculous puppy at times like my brand new dog was bound to
>> be.
>>
>> I think the administration put out a phone call or something saying
>> there would be a service dog in the school, and to contact them with
>> any allergy concerns so they could switch classes or what ever they
>> needed to do ahead of time. There were never any allergy or fear
>> issues though.
>>
>> I definitely don't think guide dogs are for most high school students,
>> but with the right individual and dog it can be a very successful
>> relationship. I believe the education and advocacy should be primarily
>> the responsibility of the handler, with the
>> administration/TVI/whatever else more as a back up. I personally had a
>> horrible relationship with my TVI who made it a point to tell me over
>> and over I would never get a dog in high school, so naturally I did
>> not want her involved at all.
>>
>> I never felt like I would be disrespectful to a teacher or
>> administrator by advocating for myself or my dog. Likewise, teachers
>> were generally very good about approaching me with any
>> questions/concerns they might have. Most students were respectful of
>> my dog. Of course, people tried to pet/talk to/whistle at Thai, but
>> they were the exception not the rule.
>>
>> Danielle and Thai
>>
>>> On 2/10/17, Jimmy via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> Dear friends,
>>> I believe many of you are correct that it can be quite a challenge to
>>> have a
>>> guide dog in a high school setting. It can be challenging just in a
>>> university setting! And of course, every individual matures at different
>>> levels. School districts are an interesting subject.   Our TAGDU learned
>>> a
>>> couple of years ago that several school districts had not updated their
>>> school district policies in years. The policies required unnecessary and
>>> discriminatory requirements on both students or even employees of service
>>> animals or guide dogs. Some included requiring the user to acquire a
>>> permit
>>> from the city, to send in a request , witl at least a month's notice, for
>>> permission to bring the guide on campus, or even stating  any guide dog
>>> or
>>> service animal was not permitted on school buses or other district
>>> transportation  vehicles. It took some advocating indeed! However, we
>>> persisted and received support from Senator Massey, an advocate and
>>> strong
>>> supporter of our TN organization. Between  Senator Massey and the media's
>>> collaboration to expose these policies, we were able to get multiple
>>> districts to change their policies. If anyone has any questions about
>>> that
>>> experience, I would be glad to speak with you further. It took hard work,
>>> but our amazing board worked together and it paid off in the end. Not
>>> only
>>> did we create change, but we also developed great relationships with
>>> important people in our state, as well as bring awareness and education
>>> about the state and federal laws!  Safe travels everyone!
>>>
>>>
>>> James Alan Boehm
>>> Phone: 901-483-1515
>>> Personal Email: jimmydagerman80 at gmail.com
>>> Refer NFB correspondences to:
>>> secretary at nfb-tn.org
>>>
>>> "Blindness never limits- Low expectations do! Live the life you want!"
>>>
>>>> On Feb 9, 2017, at 4:00 PM, Marianne Denning <marianne at denningweb.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I know of 2 students who had guide dogs in high school and they were
>>>> both
>>>> positive experiences. I worked in schools with my guide dog. I did have
>>>> to
>>>> retire one when I first began working in schools because children made
>>>> him
>>>> extremely nervous. The school considered the working conditions when I
>>>> trained with the next dog. I don't think any special information needs
>>>> to
>>>> be in the IEP. If the student is mature enough to have a guide dog then
>>>> he/she should be mature enough to advocate for herself if any situations
>>>> come up.
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Feb 9, 2017 at 4:43 PM, Matt Hackert via NAGDU
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thank you for speaking out on these issues, Michael; I had the same
>>>>> reaction, but was a little reticent about replying, although I really
>>>>> had
>>>>> no
>>>>> need to be.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also have some misgivings about the idea of getting a guide dog while
>>>>> still in high school, although it's hard to state that as more than
>>>>> just
>>>>> a
>>>>> matter of personal opinion.  Definitely, strong cane skills should be a
>>>>> prerequisite, and it takes a lot of maturity to handle the general
>>>>> public's
>>>>> reaction to a guide dog, and I would have to imagine that it's even
>>>>> more
>>>>> challenging to deal with one's peers in high school.  I found it
>>>>> difficult
>>>>> enough while an undergraduate.
>>>>>
>>>>> But, it does sounds like the decision has already been made, and this
>>>>> may
>>>>> be
>>>>> a moot point.  But do others on the list have thoughts as to how
>>>>> appropriate
>>>>> it is to work a guide dog while still in high school?  I'm definitely
>>>>> interested in others' opinions and would enjoy the discussion.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>> Matt
>>>>>
>>>>> Matt.hackert at gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Michael
>>>>> Hingson
>>>>> via NAGDU
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2017 1:52 PM
>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Cc: Michael Hingson <mike at michaelhingson.com>; 'Ann Edie'
>>>>> <Annedie at nycap.rr.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Guide dogs in school districts
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Ann,
>>>>>
>>>>> Not Marion, but I'm contributing a bit anyway. I just want to comment
>>>>> on
>>>>> emergencies and special accommodations. I think the TVI demonstrates
>>>>> full
>>>>> well why they need better training. The whole point of a fire drill is
>>>>> to
>>>>> teach everyone involved how to react in the case of an emergency. We do
>>>>> not
>>>>> get advanced warnings of unexpected things that happen to us. As you
>>>>> well
>>>>> know how the dog reacts in such situations depends on how the handler
>>>>> reacts. Advanced warning to a student seems not only to be
>>>>> counterproductive, but it is philosophically inappropriate. Blind
>>>>> students,
>>>>> using dogs or canes or other devices, should not get advanced warning.
>>>>> The
>>>>> idea is not to make life easier, but to teach where to go and what to
>>>>> do.
>>>>> If
>>>>> the student should be doing anything it should be to help make certain
>>>>> that
>>>>> teachers and staff know how to ensure that the blind student has the
>>>>> necessary information to react and function efficiently during an
>>>>> emergency
>>>>> or whatever condition occurs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, leaving class early to make certain that the student gets to the
>>>>> next
>>>>> class on time is not appropriate. School needs to help teach any
>>>>> student
>>>>> of
>>>>> their responsibilities in life. The student should learn how to get to
>>>>> class
>>>>> in the allotted time just as any other student needs to do. The whole
>>>>> point
>>>>> of using a guide dog or cane is to help students travel around in our
>>>>> environments. The student, if he or she does not know how to get around
>>>>> campus, should take time with teachers and parents outside class hours
>>>>> to
>>>>> learn how to get around. Unfortunately, learning shortcuts and such are
>>>>> things we memorize rather than just seeing how others go, but even so
>>>>> traveling with other students will most likely help the blind student
>>>>> learn
>>>>> ways they might not learn otherwise. No matter what, we must take the
>>>>> extra
>>>>> time outside class to make sure that we know how to get around in a
>>>>> timely
>>>>> manner.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is no good excuse for taking extra time to get to class if we are
>>>>> dealing with a mobile student who can walk in a typical manner. If and
>>>>> only
>>>>> if the student has some other mobility disability should any extra time
>>>>> be
>>>>> considered. We all have learned through personal experience that if we
>>>>> want
>>>>> to be held to the same standards as others and if we want to be
>>>>> successful
>>>>> in the eyes of society then we must first hold ourselves to at least as
>>>>> high
>>>>> a standard.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course you know all this. Feel free to pass this along if it will
>>>>> help.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Michael Hingson
>>>>>
>>>>> The Michael Hingson Group, INC.
>>>>> "Speaking with Vision"
>>>>> Michael Hingson, President
>>>>> (415) 827-4084
>>>>> info at michaelhingson.com
>>>>> To order Michael Hingson's new book, Running With Roselle, and check on
>>>>> Michael Hingson's speaking availability for your next event please
>>>>> visit:
>>>>> www.michaelhingson.com
>>>>>
>>>>> To purchase your own portrait of Roselle painted by the world's
>>>>> foremost
>>>>> animal artist, Ron Burns, please visit http://www.ronburns.com/roselle
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ann Edie via
>>>>> NAGDU
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2017 11:15 AM
>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Cc: Ann Edie <Annedie at nycap.rr.com>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Guide dogs in school districts
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi, Marion,
>>>>>
>>>>> Since the guide dog user in question is seeking employment within a
>>>>> school
>>>>> district, wouldn't that case be covered under the anti-discrimination
>>>>> provisions of the Rehabilitation Act? Or would both the ADA and the
>>>>> Rehabilitation Act apply?
>>>>>
>>>>> While we're on the topic of guide dog use in schools-- I have recently
>>>>> been
>>>>> approached by a TVI about planning for a high school student who will
>>>>> be
>>>>> going for guide dog training this summer and returning to high school
>>>>> next
>>>>> year. The TVI wants to know what provisions to put in the student's IEP
>>>>> concerning use of the guide dog in school. She is thinking of putting
>>>>> in
>>>>> such stipulations as the following: 1) The student will be permitted to
>>>>> leave classes to travel to the next class 5 minutes early; 2) the guide
>>>>> dog
>>>>> shall accompany the student during all activities and locations during
>>>>> the
>>>>> school day, including lunch, physical education, and after-school
>>>>> activities; and the student will have notice of times of the first few
>>>>> fire/emergency drills so that they can practice procedures with the
>>>>> guide
>>>>> dog. My first reaction to this  is to suggest to the TVI that she think
>>>>> of
>>>>> the guide dog in the same way that she would think of a
>>>>> mobility-impaired
>>>>> student's wheelchair, That it is assumed that the device will be used
>>>>> everywhere within the school setting, and that if any special
>>>>> arrangements
>>>>> need to be made, that the user should be the one to initiate/request
>>>>> them
>>>>> after they receive instruction in the use and care of the guide dog
>>>>> from
>>>>> the
>>>>> training program. My suggestion would be for the student to make a
>>>>> presentation to the teachers/administration of the school after
>>>>> receiving
>>>>> training, at or before the start of the new school year, explaining how
>>>>> the
>>>>> guide dog will be used and making it clear that the guide dog user is
>>>>> fully
>>>>> responsible for the dog and its behavior. The student should emphasize
>>>>> that
>>>>> everyone else, students and staff, is to ignore the guide dog and not
>>>>> interfere with its use. If any alterations of procedure are required,
>>>>> such
>>>>> as leaving class early or special provisions during fire drills, that
>>>>> it
>>>>> is
>>>>> the student who should initiate discussion of these needs and possible
>>>>> solutions. The student and/or administrators may want to make
>>>>> presentations
>>>>> to groups of students--the student's classmates or larger groups--to
>>>>> explain
>>>>> guide dog etiquette at the beginning of the school year.
>>>>> I believe that the school administrators' responsibility is to enforce
>>>>> the
>>>>> rule that others ignore the dog and not interfere with its use, and to
>>>>> otherwise facilitate the student's independent travel and
>>>>> responsibility
>>>>> with respect to the guide dog. If anyone is experiencing a problem with
>>>>> respect to the behavior or use of the guide dog, such as the guide dog
>>>>> sniffing or licking other students who may be allergic or fearful of
>>>>> dogs,
>>>>> that these issues should be brought directly to the attention of the
>>>>> guide
>>>>> dog user and solutions found through discussion among the guide dog
>>>>> user,
>>>>> the affected persons, and school staff. I think the guide dog training
>>>>> program may provide the student with some educational materials on how
>>>>> guide
>>>>> dogs are used within schools for the student to share upon their return
>>>>> to
>>>>> school. Do you know of any Q/A pamphlets or on-line materials that
>>>>> explain
>>>>> school district roles and responsibilities with regard to guide dog use
>>>>> by
>>>>> students under the ADA, Rehabilitation Act, and IDEA? I know that
>>>>> school
>>>>> districts often bring up issues of liability and possible allergy
>>>>> issues
>>>>> of
>>>>> other students or staff. Is there case law or other official
>>>>> information
>>>>> about how these issues should be handled?
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry for all the questions, but I want to give this teacher the best
>>>>> possible information to help the student be successful and make the
>>>>> experience a positive one for the school community.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ann
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of NAGDU
>>>>> President
>>>>> via NAGDU
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2017 8:05 AM
>>>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>>>> Cc: NAGDU President
>>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Guide dogs in school districts
>>>>>
>>>>> Nancy,
>>>>>
>>>>>       The short answer to your question is that public schools are
>>>>> Title
>>>>> II entities. Title II of the Americans with Disabilities Act requires
>>>>> entities to modify their policies, practices, and procedures to allow
>>>>> an
>>>>> individual with a disability the right to be accompanied by a service
>>>>> dog
>>>>> unless doing so creates a direct threat, defined as a significant risk
>>>>> to
>>>>> the health or safety of others that cannot be eliminated by a
>>>>> modification
>>>>> of policies, practices, or procedures, if the dog is not housebroken,
>>>>> or
>>>>> if
>>>>> the dog is out of control and the handler does not take immediate,
>>>>> effective
>>>>> measures to correct the behavior. . The argument that the presence of
>>>>> the
>>>>> dog is a liability issue would need to be demonstrated by objective
>>>>> evidence; it cannot be assumed to be so.
>>>>>
>>>>>       I would be happy to discuss this issue with the person involved
>>>>> to
>>>>> offer guidance on how to advocate for themself and, if needed, to
>>>>> intervene
>>>>> as anadvocate for them. My contact information is below my signature,
>>>>> if
>>>>> you
>>>>> or the person wishes to discuss this further.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>>
>>>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National
>>>>> Federation
>>>>> of
>>>>> the Blind
>>>>> (813) 626-2789
>>>>> President at NAGDU.ORG
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
>>>>> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
>>>>> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind
>>>>> people
>>>>> and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what
>>>>> holds
>>>>> you back.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nancy
>>>>> VanderBrink
>>>>> via NAGDU
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2017 8:10 AM
>>>>> To: Nancy VanderBrink via Nagdu
>>>>> Cc: Nancy VanderBrink
>>>>> Subject: [NAGDU] Guide dogs in school districts
>>>>>
>>>>> Good morning all,
>>>>>
>>>>> I come before your collective wisdom to put before you a question of
>>>>> access
>>>>> versus liability.
>>>>>
>>>>> A friend of mine is working on getting her bachelors degree in special
>>>>> education and wants to eventually move into my states TVI preparation
>>>>> program.  What is interesting is that rather than her being able to do
>>>>> her
>>>>> student teaching in a  school that is on a bus line and that is also
>>>>> relatively close to her university has nothing to do with the fact that
>>>>> other students from her class are in these schools, as we thought.
>>>>> Rather, it has to do with the fact that the superintendent of the
>>>>> school
>>>>> district said that he did not want a guide dog in his school district.
>>>>> What is interesting to me is that I am a service provider working with
>>>>> a
>>>>> contractor that provides services in the school district. I serve
>>>>> students
>>>>> in this district twice a month. I have had no problems with
>>>>> administration
>>>>> or staff or students.
>>>>> So, I am thinking that this comes down to a matter of liability and
>>>>> that
>>>>> it
>>>>> is different because I do not work for the school district.  I am not
>>>>> an
>>>>> independent contractor, rather I work for an agency that contracts with
>>>>> the
>>>>> school district-and I just so happen to have a guide dog.
>>>>>
>>>>> So what I am thinking is that they, meaning the district, could say to
>>>>> a
>>>>> potential employee 'we do not want you here because you have a guide
>>>>> dog'
>>>>> but they cannot say that to me because I work for the agency they
>>>>> contracts
>>>>> with and they cannot say to them that they do not want me as an
>>>>> employee
>>>>> of
>>>>> that other agency in their school district.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, essentially what I am getting down to is that this sounds like a
>>>>> violation of this university students right to access. What I am
>>>>> wondering
>>>>> is are they able to get away with this legally because they are dealing
>>>>> with
>>>>> the premise of liability and the potential liability for the district
>>>>> if
>>>>> that students dog were to bite a child.
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe I have heard other stories on this list of people that have
>>>>> had
>>>>> similar issues but I wondered if your collective wisdom knew of
>>>>> anything
>>>>> that I could pass along to the student.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Nancy
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> hackert%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> marianne%40denningweb.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
>>>> Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
>>>> (513) 607-6053
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>
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