[NAGDU] Guide dogs in school districts

Sat Feb 11 02:31:42 UTC 2017

*Hello Mr. Hingson,
I will respectfully disagree with you about releasing a student early to 
get to their next class on time and safely.
When I was in school, I knew full well my responsibility to get to class 
on time, but due to the layout of my school's building ( There were many 
times that I had classes back to back that were on opposite ends of the 
building, getting to my locker and then to the next class on time 
without extra time was just not going to happen. Luckily, for me, my 
school's administration suggested this solution ), a reasonable 
accommodation was made for me to allow me time to get to my locker and 
get the next set of class materials and then to class on time. Due to 
the size of the old large print texts that I used back in those days 
carrying every textbook with me for the entire day was not feasible.
With regards to Ms Nancy's student, having the student transit to the 
next class in an empty hallway sounds like a cracking good idea to me. 
Especially when factoring in the crowding normal in school hallways and 
the headlong inattention normally practiced by students ( Even more so 
when I was a substitute teacher working with my Guide Dog ). This is 
also a safety issue for that Guide Team.
Good Day Sir!

Wayne M. Scace

*On 2/9/2017 1:52 PM, Michael Hingson via NAGDU wrote:
> Hi Ann,
>
> Not Marion, but I'm contributing a bit anyway. I just want to comment on
> emergencies and special accommodations. I think the TVI demonstrates full
> well why they need better training. The whole point of a fire drill is to
> teach everyone involved how to react in the case of an emergency. We do not
> get advanced warnings of unexpected things that happen to us. As you well
> know how the dog reacts in such situations depends on how the handler
> reacts. Advanced warning to a student seems not only to be
> counterproductive, but it is philosophically inappropriate. Blind students,
> using dogs or canes or other devices, should not get advanced warning. The
> idea is not to make life easier, but to teach where to go and what to do. If
> the student should be doing anything it should be to help make certain that
> teachers and staff know how to ensure that the blind student has the
> necessary information to react and function efficiently during an emergency
> or whatever condition occurs.
>
> Also, leaving class early to make certain that the student gets to the next
> class on time is not appropriate. School needs to help teach any student of
> their responsibilities in life. The student should learn how to get to class
> in the allotted time just as any other student needs to do. The whole point
> of using a guide dog or cane is to help students travel around in our
> environments. The student, if he or she does not know how to get around
> campus, should take time with teachers and parents outside class hours to
> learn how to get around. Unfortunately, learning shortcuts and such are
> things we memorize rather than just seeing how others go, but even so
> traveling with other students will most likely help the blind student learn
> ways they might not learn otherwise. No matter what, we must take the extra
> time outside class to make sure that we know how to get around in a timely
> manner.
>
> There is no good excuse for taking extra time to get to class if we are
> dealing with a mobile student who can walk in a typical manner. If and only
> if the student has some other mobility disability should any extra time be
> considered. We all have learned through personal experience that if we want
> to be held to the same standards as others and if we want to be successful
> in the eyes of society then we must first hold ourselves to at least as high
> a standard.
>
> Of course you know all this. Feel free to pass this along if it will help.
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
>
> Michael Hingson
>
> The Michael Hingson Group, INC.
> "Speaking with Vision"
> Michael Hingson, President
> (415) 827-4084
> info at michaelhingson.com
> To order Michael Hingson's new book, Running With Roselle, and check on
> Michael Hingson's speaking availability for your next event please visit:
> www.michaelhingson.com
>   
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> animal artist, Ron Burns, please visit http://www.ronburns.com/roselle
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ann Edie via
> NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2017 11:15 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Ann Edie <Annedie at nycap.rr.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Guide dogs in school districts
>
> Hi, Marion,
>
> Since the guide dog user in question is seeking employment within a school
> district, wouldn't that case be covered under the anti-discrimination
> provisions of the Rehabilitation Act? Or would both the ADA and the
> Rehabilitation Act apply?
>
> While we're on the topic of guide dog use in schools-- I have recently been
> approached by a TVI about planning for a high school student who will be
> going for guide dog training this summer and returning to high school next
> year. The TVI wants to know what provisions to put in the student's IEP
> concerning use of the guide dog in school. She is thinking of putting in
> such stipulations as the following: 1) The student will be permitted to
> leave classes to travel to the next class 5 minutes early; 2) the guide dog
> shall accompany the student during all activities and locations during the
> school day, including lunch, physical education, and after-school
> activities; and the student will have notice of times of the first few
> fire/emergency drills so that they can practice procedures with the guide
> dog. My first reaction to this  is to suggest to the TVI that she think of
> the guide dog in the same way that she would think of a mobility-impaired
> student's wheelchair, That it is assumed that the device will be used
> everywhere within the school setting, and that if any special arrangements
> need to be made, that the user should be the one to initiate/request them
> after they receive instruction in the use and care of the guide dog from the
> training program. My suggestion would be for the student to make a
> presentation to the teachers/administration of the school after receiving
> training, at or before the start of the new school year, explaining how the
> guide dog will be used and making it clear that the guide dog user is fully
> responsible for the dog and its behavior. The student should emphasize that
> everyone else, students and staff, is to ignore the guide dog and not
> interfere with its use. If any alterations of procedure are required, such
> as leaving class early or special provisions during fire drills, that it is
> the student who should initiate discussion of these needs and possible
> solutions. The student and/or administrators may want to make presentations
> to groups of students--the student's classmates or larger groups--to explain
> guide dog etiquette at the beginning of the school year.
> I believe that the school administrators' responsibility is to enforce the
> rule that others ignore the dog and not interfere with its use, and to
> otherwise facilitate the student's independent travel and responsibility
> with respect to the guide dog. If anyone is experiencing a problem with
> respect to the behavior or use of the guide dog, such as the guide dog
> sniffing or licking other students who may be allergic or fearful of dogs,
> that these issues should be brought directly to the attention of the guide
> dog user and solutions found through discussion among the guide dog user,
> the affected persons, and school staff. I think the guide dog training
> program may provide the student with some educational materials on how guide
> dogs are used within schools for the student to share upon their return to
> school. Do you know of any Q/A pamphlets or on-line materials that explain
> school district roles and responsibilities with regard to guide dog use by
> students under the ADA, Rehabilitation Act, and IDEA? I know that school
> districts often bring up issues of liability and possible allergy issues of
> other students or staff. Is there case law or other official information
> about how these issues should be handled?
>
> Sorry for all the questions, but I want to give this teacher the best
> possible information to help the student be successful and make the
> experience a positive one for the school community.
>
> Ann
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of NAGDU President
> via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2017 8:05 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: NAGDU President
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Guide dogs in school districts
>
> Nancy,
>
> 	The short answer to your question is that public schools are Title
> II entities. Title II of the Americans with Disabilities Act requires
> entities to modify their policies, practices, and procedures to allow an
> individual with a disability the right to be accompanied by a service dog
> unless doing so creates a direct threat, defined as a significant risk to
> the health or safety of others that cannot be eliminated by a modification
> of policies, practices, or procedures, if the dog is not housebroken, or if
> the dog is out of control and the handler does not take immediate, effective
> measures to correct the behavior. . The argument that the presence of the
> dog is a liability issue would need to be demonstrated by objective
> evidence; it cannot be assumed to be so.
>
> 	I would be happy to discuss this issue with the person involved to
> offer guidance on how to advocate for themself and, if needed, to intervene
> as anadvocate for them. My contact information is below my signature, if you
> or the person wishes to discuss this further.
>
> Fraternally yours,
>
> Marion Gwizdala, President
> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National Federation of
> the Blind
> (813) 626-2789
> President at NAGDU.ORG
>
>
> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind  people
> and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what holds
> you back.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nancy VanderBrink
> via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2017 8:10 AM
> To: Nancy VanderBrink via Nagdu
> Cc: Nancy VanderBrink
> Subject: [NAGDU] Guide dogs in school districts
>
> Good morning all,
>
> I come before your collective wisdom to put before you a question of access
> versus liability.
>
> A friend of mine is working on getting her bachelors degree in special
> education and wants to eventually move into my states TVI preparation
> program.  What is interesting is that rather than her being able to do her
> student teaching in a  school that is on a bus line and that is also
> relatively close to her university has nothing to do with the fact that
> other students from her class are in these schools, as we thought.
> Rather, it has to do with the fact that the superintendent of the school
> district said that he did not want a guide dog in his school district.
> What is interesting to me is that I am a service provider working with a
> contractor that provides services in the school district. I serve students
> in this district twice a month. I have had no problems with administration
> or staff or students.
> So, I am thinking that this comes down to a matter of liability and that it
> is different because I do not work for the school district.  I am not an
> independent contractor, rather I work for an agency that contracts with the
> school district-and I just so happen to have a guide dog.
>
> So what I am thinking is that they, meaning the district, could say to a
> potential employee 'we do not want you here because you have a guide dog'
> but they cannot say that to me because I work for the agency they contracts
> with and they cannot say to them that they do not want me as an employee of
> that other agency in their school district.
>
> So, essentially what I am getting down to is that this sounds like a
> violation of this university students right to access. What I am wondering
> is are they able to get away with this legally because they are dealing with
> the premise of liability and the potential liability for the district if
> that students dog were to bite a child.
>
> I believe I have heard other stories on this list of people that have had
> similar issues but I wondered if your collective wisdom knew of anything
> that I could pass along to the student.
>
> Thanks,
> Nancy
>
> Sent from my iPhone
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