[NAGDU] NAGDU Digest, Vol 143, Issue 15
Suzanne Posner
PosnerKatz at hotmail.com
Sun Feb 12 13:36:32 UTC 2017
Man I send a copy of the discussions about the complications of a service dog law to people who received dogs through Canine Partners for life? (A service dog training facility)?
________________________________
From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> on behalf of nagdu-request at nfbnet.org <nagdu-request at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 7:00:01 AM
To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
Subject: NAGDU Digest, Vol 143, Issue 15
Send NAGDU mailing list submissions to
nagdu at nfbnet.org
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
nagdu-request at nfbnet.org
You can reach the person managing the list at
nagdu-owner at nfbnet.org
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of NAGDU digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Service dog license (Wayne And Harley)
2. Re: Service dog license (Jameyanne Fuller)
3. Re: Service dog license (Wayne And Harley)
4. Re: Service dog license (Julie Johnson)
5. Dogs finding the most unusual things (Dan Weiner)
6. Re: Service dog license (Dan Weiner)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 00:20:45 -0600
From: Wayne And Harley <k9dad at k9di.org>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Service dog license
Message-ID: <9tth0ufblrqst6e7ko2s2uot.1486880444398 at email.android.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Ms. Nancy,Firstly, having our Service Animals with us is a civil right. For the able bodied, having a drivers license is a privilege.Seconndly, requiring a Service Animal ID is counter to Federal law, unless the state access laws, California's for example, provide the Service Animal owner greater protections than the ADA does. This proposed bill does not. Even worse, the publically searchable database provision, violates the individual's right to privacy.
Yours, Very Sincerely And Respectfully,
Wayne M. Scace?
-------- Original message --------
From: Nancy VanderBrink via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Date: 2/11/2017 22:46 (GMT-06:00)
To: Nancy VanderBrink via Nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Nancy VanderBrink <vandyvanderbrink at outlook.com>
Subject: [NAGDU] Service dog license
Hey guys,
So I'm going to make you mad at me but I don't understandsomething...
If you have to get a license to drive why not one for a guide dog.
I know that people who were glasses are supposed to have their picture taken with her glasses on and I guess I wonder why he could not be something like that but for us with our dog?
I know figuring out how to come up with some sort of database of accredited schools and then how to figure out how to make sure these places are accredited would be a process but I guess I kind of wonder if having it on something that already exists and is already official wouldn't that make it easier?
I mean, if I have to go get a new ID when I move wouldn't it make sense to just go get a new ID with your picture of you and your partner in it that way?
I'm not trying to ignite a fire storm or anything I just don't really understand why this is such a big deal. I understand the need for privacy but I'm not even really saying that you have to say on there why you have the dog I guess I really just kind of would think that if they could get accredited schools in a database and then the DMV could choose the school you went to given on some sort? of letter or something, why is that bad???
Just trying to understand.
vandyvanderbrink at outlook.com
Sent from my iPhone
_______________________________________________
NAGDU mailing list
NAGDU at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/k9dad%40k9di.org
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 01:22:48 -0500
From: "Jameyanne Fuller" <jameyanne at gmail.com>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Service dog license
Message-ID: <009101d284f8$6ed367f0$4c7a37d0$@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hello all from snowy Cambridge,
I haven't posted on here much because law school has eaten my life (Mopsy is
loving Harvard, though), but I have been lurking. I've always been curious
about a service dog license law, so I'm chiming in with some thoughts.
The ADA limits the sorts of questions you can ask about a person's
disability, including why you have a service dog, and that's what a service
dog license would violate. I may have missed something else more specific
though. It's been a while since I read the ADA.
I've always been personally conflicted about a service dog license law. I
feel like it would discourage fakers, and the number of times I'm told by
business people that people have tried to fake bringing service dogs into
places and then the dogs have reeked havoc is really upsetting, because it
means the business person automatically doesn't trust me or Mopsy.
Setting aside the issues with the ADA for the moment, I don't think it's the
sort of law that could be implemented in one state because it would limit
people's freedom of movement (we don't have to get a license to go on
vacation).
And there's also the issue Daryl raised about being asked to show the
license multiple times a day, which is really upsetting.
There may be a way to implement something that would limit fakers and
preserve our rights at the same time. Unfortunately I've been doing legal
research all day on another issue and my brain is kind of fried so I can't
come up with a creative solution at the moment, but I'll continue to think
about it.
I do have to say that I carry Mopsy's seeing eye ID with me everywhere, and
I have no problem showing it to someone who asks for proof that Mopsy is a
service dog. I know I don't have to do this, and I've even had people tell
me that by showing Mopsy's ID I'm hurting people with service dogs who don't
have IDs. But it's a whole lot simpler to just show the ID than fighting
back when I have the ID. I can't fight on every issue. I also inform them
that while I have an ID, not all schools give IDs, and under the ADA they
can't legally ask for an ID in the first place. I recognize that it may not
always be effective to give them the proof they ask for while at the same
time telling them they can't legally ask for it, but I've found people tend
to be much more sensitive to this after I have shown them the ID and
legitimized myself. They're much more willing to talk and learn.
So I guess my point is, it's complicated. I understand and agree with both
the reasons for such a law and the reasons against it. I agree that without
safeguards, a service dog license law would be a violation of our rights.
But at the same time, something has to be done about the fakers.
Stay warm!
Jameyanne and Mopsy
jameyanne at gmail.com
-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gary Steeves via
NAGDU
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 12:54 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Gary Steeves <rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Service dog license
Hi Daryl what province is it in
On February 11, 2017 9:09:40 PM PST, Daryl via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
wrote:
>I live in Canada, and one of our provinces has enacted such a law. It's
>honestly been incredibly frustrating. People who live there have told
>me that just by going about their business with their service dogs,
>they are asked for identifying documents several times a day. One has
>even told me that she is reluctant to leave her house with her service
>dog because she gets asked for paperwork so frequently. They have not
>addressed the issue of owner trainers, or visitors to the province. For
>example, if I travel there on a family emergency, I can pre apply for a
>temporary ID card. This greatly restrict the movement of Canadian
>citizens, which is against the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. If you
>are getting asked for ID when you buy alcohol or verify your ID when
>writing checks, it's because everybody gets ask for that information.
>You personally are not targeted.
>
>On February 11, 2017 10:02:11 PM MST, Nancy VanderBrink via NAGDU
><nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>Dar,
>>Apologies, I forgot about those groups, didn't intend to.
>>
>>I have to show ID when I go to get alcohol though... and for things
>>like writing checks and verifying my identity at the airport...
>>
>>Wouldn't something like this help with 'fakers'?
>>
>>I wonder if there could even be some sort of accreditation process
>that
>>you could go through if you owner trained or had somebody help you
>>train your dog to a group like IAADP?
>>
>>Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Feb 11, 2017, at 11:54 PM, Daryl via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>wrote:
>>>
>>> I can't speak for anybody else, but as for myself I have big
>problems
>>with such an idea. It makes people with disabilities who use service
>>dogs targets for anybody who wants to see identifiable information.
>>Yes, to drive a car you need a license. But you are only requested for
>>that license if you are driving erratically. Also, if a person chooses
>>to owner train their dog, or if they're disability makes owner
>training
>>the only viable option, they are at a distinct disadvantage.
>>>
>>>> On February 11, 2017 9:46:58 PM MST, Nancy VanderBrink via NAGDU
>><nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> Hey guys,
>>>> So I'm going to make you mad at me but I don't
>>understandsomething...
>>>>
>>>> If you have to get a license to drive why not one for a guide dog.
>>>> I know that people who were glasses are supposed to have their
>>picture
>>>> taken with her glasses on and I guess I wonder why he could not be
>>>> something like that but for us with our dog?
>>>>
>>>> I know figuring out how to come up with some sort of database of
>>>> accredited schools and then how to figure out how to make sure
>these
>>>> places are accredited would be a process but I guess I kind of
>>wonder
>>>> if having it on something that already exists and is already
>>official
>>>> wouldn't that make it easier?
>>>>
>>>> I mean, if I have to go get a new ID when I move wouldn't it make
>>sense
>>>> to just go get a new ID with your picture of you and your partner
>in
>>it
>>>> that way?
>>>>
>>>> I'm not trying to ignite a fire storm or anything I just don't
>>really
>>>> understand why this is such a big deal. I understand the need for
>>>> privacy but I'm not even really saying that you have to say on
>there
>>>> why you have the dog I guess I really just kind of would think that
>>if
>>>> they could get accredited schools in a database and then the DMV
>>could
>>>> choose the school you went to given on some sort of letter or
>>>> something, why is that bad???
>>>>
>>>> Just trying to understand.
>>>>
>>>> vandyvanderbrink at outlook.com
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>for
>>>> NAGDU:
>>>>
>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/crazymusician%40shaw.ca
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>for
>>NAGDU:
>>>
>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/vandyvanderbrink%40outl
ook.com
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>NAGDU mailing list
>>NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>NAGDU:
>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/crazymusician%40shaw.ca
>
>--
>Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>_______________________________________________
>NAGDU mailing list
>NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>NAGDU:
>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rainshadowmusic%40shaw.c
a
--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
_______________________________________________
NAGDU mailing list
NAGDU at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jameyanne%40gmail.com
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 00:46:59 -0600
From: Wayne And Harley <k9dad at k9di.org>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Service dog license
Message-ID: <7l9utp1q4twl2aqhn9s1j2s8.1486882018761 at email.android.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Ms. Jameyanne,Rathe than showing an illegal ID for Mopsy, respectfully, would it not make a bit more sense to carry and distribute business sized cards with the ADA Service Animal provisions printed on them? Because, yes ma'am, you are indeed negatively impacting Service Animal teams that follow you by creating an expectation in the gatekeeper to see an ID from every Service Animal team that comes along after you.
Yours, Very Sincerely And Respectfully,
Wayne M. Scace?
-------- Original message --------
From: Jameyanne Fuller via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Date: 2/12/2017 00:22 (GMT-06:00)
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Jameyanne Fuller <jameyanne at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Service dog license
Hello all from snowy Cambridge,
I haven't posted on here much because law school has eaten my life (Mopsy is
loving Harvard, though), but I have been lurking. I've always been curious
about a service dog license law, so I'm chiming in with some thoughts.
The ADA limits the sorts of questions you can ask about a person's
disability, including why you have a service dog, and that's what a service
dog license would violate. I may have missed something else more specific
though. It's been a while since I read the ADA.
I've always been personally conflicted about a service dog license law. I
feel like it would discourage fakers, and the number of times I'm told by
business people that people have tried to fake bringing service dogs into
places and then the dogs have reeked havoc is really upsetting, because it
means the business person automatically doesn't trust me or Mopsy.
Setting aside the issues with the ADA for the moment, I don't think it's the
sort of law that could be implemented in one state because it would limit
people's freedom of movement (we don't have to get a license to go on
vacation).
And there's also the issue Daryl raised about being asked to show the
license multiple times a day, which is really upsetting.
There may be a way to implement something that would limit fakers and
preserve our rights at the same time. Unfortunately I've been doing legal
research all day on another issue and my brain is kind of fried so I can't
come up with a creative solution at the moment, but I'll continue to think
about it.
I do have to say that I carry Mopsy's seeing eye ID with me everywhere, and
I have no problem showing it to someone who asks for proof that Mopsy is a
service dog. I know I don't have to do this, and I've even had people tell
me that by showing Mopsy's ID I'm hurting people with service dogs who don't
have IDs. But it's a whole lot simpler to just show the ID than fighting
back when I have the ID. I can't fight on every issue. I also inform them
that while I have an ID, not all schools give IDs, and under the ADA they
can't legally ask for an ID in the first place. I recognize that it may not
always be effective to give them the proof they ask for while at the same
time telling them they can't legally ask for it, but I've found people tend
to be much more sensitive to this after I have shown them the ID and
legitimized myself. They're much more willing to talk and learn.
So I guess my point is, it's complicated. I understand and agree with both
the reasons for such a law and the reasons against it. I agree that without
safeguards, a service dog license law would be a violation of our rights.
But at the same time, something has to be done about the fakers.
Stay warm!
Jameyanne and Mopsy
jameyanne at gmail.com
-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gary Steeves via
NAGDU
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 12:54 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Gary Steeves <rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Service dog license
Hi Daryl what province is it in
On February 11, 2017 9:09:40 PM PST, Daryl via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
wrote:
>I live in Canada, and one of our provinces has enacted such a law. It's
>honestly been incredibly frustrating. People who live there have told
>me that just by going about their business with their service dogs,
>they are asked for identifying documents several times a day. One has
>even told me that she is reluctant to leave her house with her service
>dog because she gets asked for paperwork so frequently. They have not
>addressed the issue of owner trainers, or visitors to the province. For
>example, if I travel there on a family emergency, I can pre apply for a
>temporary ID card. This greatly restrict the movement of Canadian
>citizens, which is against the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. If you
>are getting asked for ID when you buy alcohol or verify your ID when
>writing checks, it's because everybody gets ask for that information.
>You personally are not targeted.
>
>On February 11, 2017 10:02:11 PM MST, Nancy VanderBrink via NAGDU
><nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>Dar,
>>Apologies, I forgot about those groups, didn't intend to.
>>
>>I have to show ID when I go to get alcohol though...? and for things
>>like writing checks and verifying my identity at the airport...
>>
>>Wouldn't something like this help with 'fakers'?
>>
>>I wonder if there could even be some sort of accreditation process
>that
>>you could go through if you owner? trained or had somebody help you
>>train your dog to a group like IAADP?
>>
>>Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Feb 11, 2017, at 11:54 PM, Daryl via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>wrote:
>>>
>>> I can't speak for anybody else, but as for myself I have big
>problems
>>with such an idea. It makes people with disabilities who use service
>>dogs targets for anybody who wants to see identifiable information.
>>Yes, to drive a car you need a license. But you are only requested for
>>that license if you are driving erratically. Also, if a person chooses
>>to owner train their dog, or if they're disability makes owner
>training
>>the only viable option, they are at a distinct disadvantage.
>>>
>>>> On February 11, 2017 9:46:58 PM MST, Nancy VanderBrink via NAGDU
>><nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> Hey guys,
>>>> So I'm going to make you mad at me but I don't
>>understandsomething...
>>>>
>>>> If you have to get a license to drive why not one for a guide dog.
>>>> I know that people who were glasses are supposed to have their
>>picture
>>>> taken with her glasses on and I guess I wonder why he could not be
>>>> something like that but for us with our dog?
>>>>
>>>> I know figuring out how to come up with some sort of database of
>>>> accredited schools and then how to figure out how to make sure
>these
>>>> places are accredited would be a process but I guess I kind of
>>wonder
>>>> if having it on something that already exists and is already
>>official
>>>> wouldn't that make it easier?
>>>>
>>>> I mean, if I have to go get a new ID when I move wouldn't it make
>>sense
>>>> to just go get a new ID with your picture of you and your partner
>in
>>it
>>>> that way?
>>>>
>>>> I'm not trying to ignite a fire storm or anything I just don't
>>really
>>>> understand why this is such a big deal. I understand the need for
>>>> privacy but I'm not even really saying that you have to say on
>there
>>>> why you have the dog I guess I really just kind of would think that
>>if
>>>> they could get accredited schools in a database and then the DMV
>>could
>>>> choose the school you went to given on some sort? of letter or
>>>> something, why is that bad???
>>>>
>>>> Just trying to understand.
>>>>
>>>> vandyvanderbrink at outlook.com
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>for
>>>> NAGDU:
>>>>
>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/crazymusician%40shaw.ca
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>for
>>NAGDU:
>>>
>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/vandyvanderbrink%40outl
ook.com
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>NAGDU mailing list
>>NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>NAGDU:
>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/crazymusician%40shaw.ca
>
>--
>Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>_______________________________________________
>NAGDU mailing list
>NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>NAGDU:
>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rainshadowmusic%40shaw.c
a
--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
_______________________________________________
NAGDU mailing list
NAGDU at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jameyanne%40gmail.com
_______________________________________________
NAGDU mailing list
NAGDU at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/k9dad%40k9di.org
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 05:23:07 -0600
From: "Julie Johnson" <julielj at neb.rr.com>
To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Service dog license
Message-ID: <3BA6932E96924E25A525BBDA96F429EF at JuliePC>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Nancy,
I appreciate your sincerity in wanting to address the situation. I am also
glad you are open to learning why this might or might not work.
First, who decides what programs are accredited? The programs themselves?
The government? Some other organization? Who pays for this? There is no
single accreditation entity for all guide, service, hearing, diabetic,
psychiatric dog programs. Would some of the programs be accredited and
other types of disabilities would be out of luck?
Currently the laws in the U.S. state that a dog has to be individually
trained to mitigate the handler's disability. There is no mention of a
program needing to do this training or the person needing to prove their
disability. In order to have an ID of some variety, you would not only need
to list the dog, but the person would need to prove their disability. As
blind people we don't really find this to be a problem, but what about other
disabilities. I'm thinking those with a strong social bias like dogs who do
psychiatric tasks or seizure alert. Who decides what is a disability?
Currently people self identify and in the case of a legal situation a judge
decides if a disability is in fact present. If we had to have ID's there is
going to be a seriously long line for disability confirmations. I have had
it proposed that doctor's be the contact to determine disability and I think
this is a very bad idea. Doctor's understand the medical aspects of disease
and disability, but they do not understand the legal side of the issue,
which is what is needed in this situation.
Then we get to the people who do not go through a program for their dogs.
When it comes to programs for guide dogs, blind people have it made. We
have a wide selection of very low cost options with not too bad waiting
lists. That is not the case with every other type of disability. The
number of programs compared to the number of applicants is low, making for
long waiting lists. Frequently these programs charge large sums of money,
in the thousands or tens of thousands, for their dogs. This means there are
a large number of people with disabilities that choose to owner train or
have a dog privately trained faster and for less money. This also allows
for a greater flexibility in what training is provided, making the owner
trained dog much more customized to the owners particular disability needs.
So who accredits these folks?
Then we get to the part that irritates me the most about the ID issue, well
one of the parts anyway. Why would the entire program be accredited instead
of each individual team? That feels like we are giving the program a free
pass to slide through some dogs who are a little rough around the edges.
We've all encountered program dogs who were not pleasant and the handler
couldn't or wouldn't do something to address the situation. If we are going
to do this ID thing, then folks who owner train and those who have program
dogs must be treated equally.
I also agree wholeheartedly with Daryl about what she said about when a
driver's license is shown vs. when this dog ID would be shown. A Driver's
License is never a condition of access. You aren't asked for it when
entering the grocery store, when you get in the car or when you sit down in
the restaurant. It can be used as proof of age or residency, but never as a
condition of public access. Requiring a different standard of
community access for disabled people is highly discriminatory.
And yes, I owner train my dogs or in the case of the last one, had her
privately trained. I'm very happy with that choice and don't see myself
changing anytime soon.
Julie
Courage to Dare: A Blind Woman's Quest to Train her Own Guide Dog
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00QXZSMOC
-----Original Message-----
From: Daryl via NAGDU
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 10:53 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Daryl
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Service dog license
I can't speak for anybody else, but as for myself I have big problems with
such an idea. It makes people with disabilities who use service dogs targets
for anybody who wants to see identifiable information. Yes, to drive a car
you need a license. But you are only requested for that license if you are
driving erratically. Also, if a person chooses to owner train their dog, or
if they're disability makes owner training the only viable option, they are
at a distinct disadvantage.
On February 11, 2017 9:46:58 PM MST, Nancy VanderBrink via NAGDU
<nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>Hey guys,
>So I'm going to make you mad at me but I don't understandsomething...
>
>If you have to get a license to drive why not one for a guide dog.
>I know that people who were glasses are supposed to have their picture
>taken with her glasses on and I guess I wonder why he could not be
>something like that but for us with our dog?
>
>I know figuring out how to come up with some sort of database of
>accredited schools and then how to figure out how to make sure these
>places are accredited would be a process but I guess I kind of wonder
>if having it on something that already exists and is already official
>wouldn't that make it easier?
>
>I mean, if I have to go get a new ID when I move wouldn't it make sense
>to just go get a new ID with your picture of you and your partner in it
>that way?
>
>I'm not trying to ignite a fire storm or anything I just don't really
>understand why this is such a big deal. I understand the need for
>privacy but I'm not even really saying that you have to say on there
>why you have the dog I guess I really just kind of would think that if
>they could get accredited schools in a database and then the DMV could
>choose the school you went to given on some sort of letter or
>something, why is that bad???
>
>Just trying to understand.
>
>vandyvanderbrink at outlook.com
>Sent from my iPhone
>_______________________________________________
>NAGDU mailing list
>NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>NAGDU:
>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/crazymusician%40shaw.ca
--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
_______________________________________________
NAGDU mailing list
NAGDU at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/julielj%40neb.rr.com
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com>
Version: 2012.0.2265 / Virus Database: 4365/13429 - Release Date: 02/11/17
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 06:36:57 -0500
From: "Dan Weiner" <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [NAGDU] Dogs finding the most unusual things
Message-ID: <201702121137.v1CBaxGT009609 at mail46c28.carrierzone.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2"
Well that does remind me of a story (oh no, here he goes again, Dan and his
stories--loll)
Picture the scene, dog numero dos, Evan who worked with me as a guide dog
for ten and a half years and was retired two more. He got to be very good
when it came to finding counters and such.
We would walk in to the publiks, (supermarket down here) and I'd say find
the counter and he did know that I was going to customer service. That
worked every time except for once--lol.
I said find the counter, you know what the deal is, buddy", yes a long
command but what can I say, I'm just telling the story...He started prancing
off in the direction I knew we needed, but then there was s a sharp turn. He
stopped very proud of himself, I reached out expecting the counter, figuring
there had been an obstacle to take me around and hence the sudden turn, but
what did I find, the chew treats for dogs. What's even funnier is that I
never bought him these long treats that sort of looked like slim jims, but
he must have smelled it or who kows what...It was, I'll admit, hilarious.
I wasn't sure they were long treats but a helpful customer informed me "Oh
those are the chew treats for dogs"--lol and then I told them what happened
and we all started laughing.
Warmest regards,
Dan and the Parker Hound
-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of lkeeler--- via
NAGDU
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 9:20 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: lkeeler at comcast.net
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] {Spam?} The myth of the magical cane
Oh, but our dogs are supposed to know everything! Its funny how many people
figure the dog knows exactly where I want to go! If left to Holly though
I'll go into a store and end up standing in front of the dog treat or dog
toy shelf! She does know where those things are!
-----Original Message-----
From: Danielle Ledet via NAGDU
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 5:57 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Danielle Ledet
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] {Spam?} The myth of the magical cane
Sandra, I always tell people this when I start to anser questions about dog
guide school consideration. Very well said. Raul I agree.
One of the frustrating things for me is going into an unfamiliar environment
and being expected for us to work as fluidly as a team as we would in our
own environment. If I do not know where I'm going or what type of terrain
and obstacles to expect, how can I expect my dog to be on her best job? I
have never faulted my dogs for my ineptitude during those times! Dan, that
really was funny. And I especially want another dog with all the silent cars
rolling around, and, no, I do not think that persistently living in rural
areas is the correct solution!
On 2/10/17, S L Johnson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I completely agree with you. If you cannot orient yourself to your
> surroundings and know the rout you must take to get somewhere it will
> not really matter whether you are using a cane or dog. I have seen
> too many people get dogs thinking the dog will solve their mobility
> issues. That is
>
> not true. You must have good orientation skills in order to be a good
> guide
>
> dog handler. If I had not been such a good cane traveler with the
> confidence I had I do not think I would have been able to transfer
> that confidence to working with a guide dog. I guess I have to say
> that I am glad that now the guide dog schools pay more attention to an
> applicants cane
>
> skills. In the short time you have on class it would be impossible
> for the
>
> trainers to also have to teach basic orientation and mobility skills.
> Furthermore, as others have said, there are times you might want to go
> somewhere without your dog. Your dog may become ill and you still
> have to get to school work etc.... I know in my 42 years of guide dog
> use I have found myself having to pull out my cane many times when my
> dog was ill or when I was between dogs. So, even though I prefer
> using a guide dog, I think it is important to have good cane skills too.
>
> Sandra and Eva
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Raul A. Gallegos via NAGDU
> Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2017 6:01 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Raul A. Gallegos
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] {Spam?} The myth of the magical cane
>
> Dan, I definitely don't want to see this turn into a dog versus Cain
> issue on the list. It's one of those things that has been brought up
> time and time
>
> again and there is no real answer. However, that being said, it is my
> opinion only that a fair amount of Cain travel skills are necessary in
> order
>
> to be a successful dog handler. Canes are certainly not magic wands.
> Although I am a good Kane traveler, there are people who are better
> than me
>
> and there are people who are not as good as me. This is Merely my own
> observation and not from a professional's viewpoint. One example of
> how Cain
>
> travel is important to me as a dog user is, I will not depend on my
> dog for
>
> 100% of my travel. There are times that I will not take my dog to
> certain situations, or my dog might not be feeling well. Therefore,
> having good cane
>
> skills is a must. I have met blind people, both cane and dog users who
> had trouble finding their way out of a simple one door room with four
walls.
> It
>
> has made me sad that people like this have not been able to receive
> adequate
>
> mobility training, or if they did, they have a lead that training laps
> for one reason or another. The dog is not going to make someone be a
> better traveler just like the cane won't, it is merely one's personal
> abilities and
>
> goals with whichever tool one uses to utilize. There might be
> situations that I am shopping at a store and will take my guide dog in
> and out of the isles. However when I need to find something specific
> that he might normally
>
> take me around, you bet I will take out my cane and heel the dog. I
> hope my
>
> comments make sense. Thanks.
>
> --
> Raul A. Gallegos
> Assistive Technology Trainer - RGA Tech Solutions
>
> Mobile: 832.554.7285
> Work: 832.639.4477
> Personal Email: raul at raulgallegos.com
> Work Email: training at rgats.com
>
> ??oAny teacher that can be replaced with a computer, deserves to
> be.??? ??"
>
> David Thornburg
>
>
>> On Feb 9, 2017, at 4:03 PM, Dan Weiner via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Gosh you make cane skills sound like some magic wand, I know if when
>> I first got a guide dog someone had known quite how little confidence
>> I had with a cane , judging by what seems to be today's standards I
>> would have never been given a dog--lol. I'm glad guide dog schools
>> gave people a chance when I, for example, started out. I got a dog
>> and soon understood what I would need to do to become a good traveler
>> with a dog and I worked hard and voila I'm using a dog 24 years
>> later, have traveled all sorts of places,
>> even other countries and so on... This though I only hear in one ear
>> and
>> of course am totally blind.
>> fact is I was very motivated.
>> this isn't directed at your question about high school but I am just
>> amazed at how much I hear about people saying things like "oh before
>> you have a dog you had better have good cane skills."
>>
>> And even now, every time I go for a successor dog they'll come to
>> your home a lot of times and try out my cane skills on a walk and I
>> hear grumbling about how I veer with a cane when I cross streets...if
>> I thought I were the cat's miao with a cane I probably wouldn't
>> necessarily opt for a dog, fact is it's a better mobility tool for
>> me.
>>
>> Just an observation.
>>
>>
>> No comments about the TVI, I actually agree with what's been said on
>> that subject already.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/raul%40raulgallego
>> s.com
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sljohnson25%40comca
> st.net
>
>
>
>
>
--
How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young,
compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of
the weak and strong. Because someday in your life you will have been all of
these.
George Washington Carver
Email: singingmywayin at gmail.com
_______________________________________________
NAGDU mailing list
NAGDU at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/lkeeler%40comcast.net
_______________________________________________
NAGDU mailing list
NAGDU at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dcwein%40dcwein.cnc.net
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 06:44:36 -0500
From: "Dan Weiner" <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Service dog license
Message-ID: <201702121144.v1CBicRW008601 at mail41c28.carrierzone.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I just want to know if Mopsy has a sister named Flopsy and a brother named
Cotton Tail.
What a great name for a dog.
Well, yes I know the problem of fake service dog users has become an
issue, but on the other hand we need to be careful what we want to
implement. The first question would be who exactly will give out this
license, what would we need to do to keep it active, who would have the
right to challenge us and so on...I suspect it is an idea best not carried
out. I think the Ada rules need to be publicized more, businesses and other
entities educated on their obligations and our obligations.
Anyway I'll keep reading and see what we say.
Wayne's idea is good, having a hcard talking about relevant laws wouldn't
hurt us at all. The law is a hard thing to argue with--lol
I would be very hesitant to adding any bureaucratic red tape to our use of
guide dogs.
-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Wayne And Harley
via NAGDU
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 1:47 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Wayne And Harley
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Service dog license
Ms. Jameyanne,Rathe than showing an illegal ID for Mopsy, respectfully,
would it not make a bit more sense to carry and distribute business sized
cards with the ADA Service Animal provisions printed on them? Because, yes
ma'am, you are indeed negatively impacting Service Animal teams that follow
you by creating an expectation in the gatekeeper to see an ID from every
Service Animal team that comes along after you.
Yours, Very Sincerely And Respectfully,
Wayne M. Scace?
-------- Original message --------
From: Jameyanne Fuller via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Date: 2/12/2017 00:22 (GMT-06:00)
To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Jameyanne Fuller <jameyanne at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Service dog license
Hello all from snowy Cambridge,
I haven't posted on here much because law school has eaten my life (Mopsy is
loving Harvard, though), but I have been lurking. I've always been curious
about a service dog license law, so I'm chiming in with some thoughts.
The ADA limits the sorts of questions you can ask about a person's
disability, including why you have a service dog, and that's what a service
dog license would violate. I may have missed something else more specific
though. It's been a while since I read the ADA.
I've always been personally conflicted about a service dog license law. I
feel like it would discourage fakers, and the number of times I'm told by
business people that people have tried to fake bringing service dogs into
places and then the dogs have reeked havoc is really upsetting, because it
means the business person automatically doesn't trust me or Mopsy.
Setting aside the issues with the ADA for the moment, I don't think it's the
sort of law that could be implemented in one state because it would limit
people's freedom of movement (we don't have to get a license to go on
vacation).
And there's also the issue Daryl raised about being asked to show the
license multiple times a day, which is really upsetting.
There may be a way to implement something that would limit fakers and
preserve our rights at the same time. Unfortunately I've been doing legal
research all day on another issue and my brain is kind of fried so I can't
come up with a creative solution at the moment, but I'll continue to think
about it.
I do have to say that I carry Mopsy's seeing eye ID with me everywhere, and
I have no problem showing it to someone who asks for proof that Mopsy is a
service dog. I know I don't have to do this, and I've even had people tell
me that by showing Mopsy's ID I'm hurting people with service dogs who don't
have IDs. But it's a whole lot simpler to just show the ID than fighting
back when I have the ID. I can't fight on every issue. I also inform them
that while I have an ID, not all schools give IDs, and under the ADA they
can't legally ask for an ID in the first place. I recognize that it may not
always be effective to give them the proof they ask for while at the same
time telling them they can't legally ask for it, but I've found people tend
to be much more sensitive to this after I have shown them the ID and
legitimized myself. They're much more willing to talk and learn.
So I guess my point is, it's complicated. I understand and agree with both
the reasons for such a law and the reasons against it. I agree that without
safeguards, a service dog license law would be a violation of our rights.
But at the same time, something has to be done about the fakers.
Stay warm!
Jameyanne and Mopsy
jameyanne at gmail.com
-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gary Steeves via
NAGDU
Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 12:54 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Gary Steeves <rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Service dog license
Hi Daryl what province is it in
On February 11, 2017 9:09:40 PM PST, Daryl via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
wrote:
>I live in Canada, and one of our provinces has enacted such a law. It's
>honestly been incredibly frustrating. People who live there have told
>me that just by going about their business with their service dogs,
>they are asked for identifying documents several times a day. One has
>even told me that she is reluctant to leave her house with her service
>dog because she gets asked for paperwork so frequently. They have not
>addressed the issue of owner trainers, or visitors to the province. For
>example, if I travel there on a family emergency, I can pre apply for a
>temporary ID card. This greatly restrict the movement of Canadian
>citizens, which is against the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. If you
>are getting asked for ID when you buy alcohol or verify your ID when
>writing checks, it's because everybody gets ask for that information.
>You personally are not targeted.
>
>On February 11, 2017 10:02:11 PM MST, Nancy VanderBrink via NAGDU
><nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>Dar,
>>Apologies, I forgot about those groups, didn't intend to.
>>
>>I have to show ID when I go to get alcohol though...? and for things
>>like writing checks and verifying my identity at the airport...
>>
>>Wouldn't something like this help with 'fakers'?
>>
>>I wonder if there could even be some sort of accreditation process
>that
>>you could go through if you owner? trained or had somebody help you
>>train your dog to a group like IAADP?
>>
>>Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Feb 11, 2017, at 11:54 PM, Daryl via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>wrote:
>>>
>>> I can't speak for anybody else, but as for myself I have big
>problems
>>with such an idea. It makes people with disabilities who use service
>>dogs targets for anybody who wants to see identifiable information.
>>Yes, to drive a car you need a license. But you are only requested for
>>that license if you are driving erratically. Also, if a person chooses
>>to owner train their dog, or if they're disability makes owner
>training
>>the only viable option, they are at a distinct disadvantage.
>>>
>>>> On February 11, 2017 9:46:58 PM MST, Nancy VanderBrink via NAGDU
>><nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>> Hey guys,
>>>> So I'm going to make you mad at me but I don't
>>understandsomething...
>>>>
>>>> If you have to get a license to drive why not one for a guide dog.
>>>> I know that people who were glasses are supposed to have their
>>picture
>>>> taken with her glasses on and I guess I wonder why he could not be
>>>> something like that but for us with our dog?
>>>>
>>>> I know figuring out how to come up with some sort of database of
>>>> accredited schools and then how to figure out how to make sure
>these
>>>> places are accredited would be a process but I guess I kind of
>>wonder
>>>> if having it on something that already exists and is already
>>official
>>>> wouldn't that make it easier?
>>>>
>>>> I mean, if I have to go get a new ID when I move wouldn't it make
>>sense
>>>> to just go get a new ID with your picture of you and your partner
>in
>>it
>>>> that way?
>>>>
>>>> I'm not trying to ignite a fire storm or anything I just don't
>>really
>>>> understand why this is such a big deal. I understand the need for
>>>> privacy but I'm not even really saying that you have to say on
>there
>>>> why you have the dog I guess I really just kind of would think that
>>if
>>>> they could get accredited schools in a database and then the DMV
>>could
>>>> choose the school you went to given on some sort? of letter or
>>>> something, why is that bad???
>>>>
>>>> Just trying to understand.
>>>>
>>>> vandyvanderbrink at outlook.com
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>for
>>>> NAGDU:
>>>>
>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/crazymusician%40sha
>>w.ca
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>for
>>NAGDU:
>>>
>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/vandyvanderbrink%40
>>outl
ook.com
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>NAGDU mailing list
>>NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>NAGDU:
>>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/crazymusician%40sha
>>w.ca
>
>--
>Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>_______________________________________________
>NAGDU mailing list
>NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>NAGDU:
>http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rainshadowmusic%40sh
>aw.c
a
--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
_______________________________________________
NAGDU mailing list
NAGDU at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jameyanne%40gmail.com
_______________________________________________
NAGDU mailing list
NAGDU at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/k9dad%40k9di.org
_______________________________________________
NAGDU mailing list
NAGDU at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dcwein%40dcwein.cnc.net
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________
NAGDU mailing list
NAGDU at nfbnet.org
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
------------------------------
End of NAGDU Digest, Vol 143, Issue 15
**************************************
More information about the NAGDU
mailing list