[NAGDU] NAGDU Digest, Vol 143, Issue 15
Buddy Brannan
buddy at brannan.name
Sun Feb 12 15:14:13 UTC 2017
The list discussions are publicly archived, far as I know. For my part, feel free. Canine Partners For Life...I used to know, is that in PA or in FL? So many orgs have such similar names.
--
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Phone: 814-860-3194
Mobile: 814-431-0962
Email: buddy at brannan.name
> On Feb 12, 2017, at 8:36 AM, Suzanne Posner via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>
> Man I send a copy of the discussions about the complications of a service dog law to people who received dogs through Canine Partners for life? (A service dog training facility)?
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: NAGDU <nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org> on behalf of nagdu-request at nfbnet.org <nagdu-request at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 7:00:01 AM
> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> Subject: NAGDU Digest, Vol 143, Issue 15
>
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Service dog license (Wayne And Harley)
> 2. Re: Service dog license (Jameyanne Fuller)
> 3. Re: Service dog license (Wayne And Harley)
> 4. Re: Service dog license (Julie Johnson)
> 5. Dogs finding the most unusual things (Dan Weiner)
> 6. Re: Service dog license (Dan Weiner)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 00:20:45 -0600
> From: Wayne And Harley <k9dad at k9di.org>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Service dog license
> Message-ID: <9tth0ufblrqst6e7ko2s2uot.1486880444398 at email.android.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
>
>
> Ms. Nancy,Firstly, having our Service Animals with us is a civil right. For the able bodied, having a drivers license is a privilege.Seconndly, requiring a Service Animal ID is counter to Federal law, unless the state access laws, California's for example, provide the Service Animal owner greater protections than the ADA does. This proposed bill does not. Even worse, the publically searchable database provision, violates the individual's right to privacy.
>
>
>
>
> Yours, Very Sincerely And Respectfully,
>
> Wayne M. Scace?
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Nancy VanderBrink via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Date: 2/11/2017 22:46 (GMT-06:00)
> To: Nancy VanderBrink via Nagdu <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Nancy VanderBrink <vandyvanderbrink at outlook.com>
> Subject: [NAGDU] Service dog license
>
> Hey guys,
> So I'm going to make you mad at me but I don't understandsomething...
>
> If you have to get a license to drive why not one for a guide dog.
> I know that people who were glasses are supposed to have their picture taken with her glasses on and I guess I wonder why he could not be something like that but for us with our dog?
>
> I know figuring out how to come up with some sort of database of accredited schools and then how to figure out how to make sure these places are accredited would be a process but I guess I kind of wonder if having it on something that already exists and is already official wouldn't that make it easier?
>
> I mean, if I have to go get a new ID when I move wouldn't it make sense to just go get a new ID with your picture of you and your partner in it that way?
>
> I'm not trying to ignite a fire storm or anything I just don't really understand why this is such a big deal. I understand the need for privacy but I'm not even really saying that you have to say on there why you have the dog I guess I really just kind of would think that if they could get accredited schools in a database and then the DMV could choose the school you went to given on some sort? of letter or something, why is that bad???
>
> Just trying to understand.
>
> vandyvanderbrink at outlook.com
> Sent from my iPhone
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/k9dad%40k9di.org
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 01:22:48 -0500
> From: "Jameyanne Fuller" <jameyanne at gmail.com>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Service dog license
> Message-ID: <009101d284f8$6ed367f0$4c7a37d0$@gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hello all from snowy Cambridge,
> I haven't posted on here much because law school has eaten my life (Mopsy is
> loving Harvard, though), but I have been lurking. I've always been curious
> about a service dog license law, so I'm chiming in with some thoughts.
> The ADA limits the sorts of questions you can ask about a person's
> disability, including why you have a service dog, and that's what a service
> dog license would violate. I may have missed something else more specific
> though. It's been a while since I read the ADA.
> I've always been personally conflicted about a service dog license law. I
> feel like it would discourage fakers, and the number of times I'm told by
> business people that people have tried to fake bringing service dogs into
> places and then the dogs have reeked havoc is really upsetting, because it
> means the business person automatically doesn't trust me or Mopsy.
> Setting aside the issues with the ADA for the moment, I don't think it's the
> sort of law that could be implemented in one state because it would limit
> people's freedom of movement (we don't have to get a license to go on
> vacation).
> And there's also the issue Daryl raised about being asked to show the
> license multiple times a day, which is really upsetting.
> There may be a way to implement something that would limit fakers and
> preserve our rights at the same time. Unfortunately I've been doing legal
> research all day on another issue and my brain is kind of fried so I can't
> come up with a creative solution at the moment, but I'll continue to think
> about it.
> I do have to say that I carry Mopsy's seeing eye ID with me everywhere, and
> I have no problem showing it to someone who asks for proof that Mopsy is a
> service dog. I know I don't have to do this, and I've even had people tell
> me that by showing Mopsy's ID I'm hurting people with service dogs who don't
> have IDs. But it's a whole lot simpler to just show the ID than fighting
> back when I have the ID. I can't fight on every issue. I also inform them
> that while I have an ID, not all schools give IDs, and under the ADA they
> can't legally ask for an ID in the first place. I recognize that it may not
> always be effective to give them the proof they ask for while at the same
> time telling them they can't legally ask for it, but I've found people tend
> to be much more sensitive to this after I have shown them the ID and
> legitimized myself. They're much more willing to talk and learn.
> So I guess my point is, it's complicated. I understand and agree with both
> the reasons for such a law and the reasons against it. I agree that without
> safeguards, a service dog license law would be a violation of our rights.
> But at the same time, something has to be done about the fakers.
> Stay warm!
> Jameyanne and Mopsy
> jameyanne at gmail.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gary Steeves via
> NAGDU
> Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 12:54 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Gary Steeves <rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Service dog license
>
> Hi Daryl what province is it in
>
> On February 11, 2017 9:09:40 PM PST, Daryl via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
>> I live in Canada, and one of our provinces has enacted such a law. It's
>> honestly been incredibly frustrating. People who live there have told
>> me that just by going about their business with their service dogs,
>> they are asked for identifying documents several times a day. One has
>> even told me that she is reluctant to leave her house with her service
>> dog because she gets asked for paperwork so frequently. They have not
>> addressed the issue of owner trainers, or visitors to the province. For
>> example, if I travel there on a family emergency, I can pre apply for a
>> temporary ID card. This greatly restrict the movement of Canadian
>> citizens, which is against the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. If you
>> are getting asked for ID when you buy alcohol or verify your ID when
>> writing checks, it's because everybody gets ask for that information.
>> You personally are not targeted.
>>
>> On February 11, 2017 10:02:11 PM MST, Nancy VanderBrink via NAGDU
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> Dar,
>>> Apologies, I forgot about those groups, didn't intend to.
>>>
>>> I have to show ID when I go to get alcohol though... and for things
>>> like writing checks and verifying my identity at the airport...
>>>
>>> Wouldn't something like this help with 'fakers'?
>>>
>>> I wonder if there could even be some sort of accreditation process
>> that
>>> you could go through if you owner trained or had somebody help you
>>> train your dog to a group like IAADP?
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On Feb 11, 2017, at 11:54 PM, Daryl via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I can't speak for anybody else, but as for myself I have big
>> problems
>>> with such an idea. It makes people with disabilities who use service
>>> dogs targets for anybody who wants to see identifiable information.
>>> Yes, to drive a car you need a license. But you are only requested for
>>> that license if you are driving erratically. Also, if a person chooses
>>> to owner train their dog, or if they're disability makes owner
>> training
>>> the only viable option, they are at a distinct disadvantage.
>>>>
>>>>> On February 11, 2017 9:46:58 PM MST, Nancy VanderBrink via NAGDU
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>> Hey guys,
>>>>> So I'm going to make you mad at me but I don't
>>> understandsomething...
>>>>>
>>>>> If you have to get a license to drive why not one for a guide dog.
>>>>> I know that people who were glasses are supposed to have their
>>> picture
>>>>> taken with her glasses on and I guess I wonder why he could not be
>>>>> something like that but for us with our dog?
>>>>>
>>>>> I know figuring out how to come up with some sort of database of
>>>>> accredited schools and then how to figure out how to make sure
>> these
>>>>> places are accredited would be a process but I guess I kind of
>>> wonder
>>>>> if having it on something that already exists and is already
>>> official
>>>>> wouldn't that make it easier?
>>>>>
>>>>> I mean, if I have to go get a new ID when I move wouldn't it make
>>> sense
>>>>> to just go get a new ID with your picture of you and your partner
>> in
>>> it
>>>>> that way?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not trying to ignite a fire storm or anything I just don't
>>> really
>>>>> understand why this is such a big deal. I understand the need for
>>>>> privacy but I'm not even really saying that you have to say on
>> there
>>>>> why you have the dog I guess I really just kind of would think that
>>> if
>>>>> they could get accredited schools in a database and then the DMV
>>> could
>>>>> choose the school you went to given on some sort of letter or
>>>>> something, why is that bad???
>>>>>
>>>>> Just trying to understand.
>>>>>
>>>>> vandyvanderbrink at outlook.com
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>> for
>>>>> NAGDU:
>>>>>
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/crazymusician%40shaw.ca
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> for
>>> NAGDU:
>>>>
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/vandyvanderbrink%40outl
> ook.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> NAGDU:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/crazymusician%40shaw.ca
>>
>> --
>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rainshadowmusic%40shaw.c
> a
>
> --
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jameyanne%40gmail.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 00:46:59 -0600
> From: Wayne And Harley <k9dad at k9di.org>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Service dog license
> Message-ID: <7l9utp1q4twl2aqhn9s1j2s8.1486882018761 at email.android.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
>
>
> Ms. Jameyanne,Rathe than showing an illegal ID for Mopsy, respectfully, would it not make a bit more sense to carry and distribute business sized cards with the ADA Service Animal provisions printed on them? Because, yes ma'am, you are indeed negatively impacting Service Animal teams that follow you by creating an expectation in the gatekeeper to see an ID from every Service Animal team that comes along after you.
>
>
> Yours, Very Sincerely And Respectfully,
>
> Wayne M. Scace?
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Jameyanne Fuller via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Date: 2/12/2017 00:22 (GMT-06:00)
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Jameyanne Fuller <jameyanne at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Service dog license
>
> Hello all from snowy Cambridge,
> I haven't posted on here much because law school has eaten my life (Mopsy is
> loving Harvard, though), but I have been lurking. I've always been curious
> about a service dog license law, so I'm chiming in with some thoughts.
> The ADA limits the sorts of questions you can ask about a person's
> disability, including why you have a service dog, and that's what a service
> dog license would violate. I may have missed something else more specific
> though. It's been a while since I read the ADA.
> I've always been personally conflicted about a service dog license law. I
> feel like it would discourage fakers, and the number of times I'm told by
> business people that people have tried to fake bringing service dogs into
> places and then the dogs have reeked havoc is really upsetting, because it
> means the business person automatically doesn't trust me or Mopsy.
> Setting aside the issues with the ADA for the moment, I don't think it's the
> sort of law that could be implemented in one state because it would limit
> people's freedom of movement (we don't have to get a license to go on
> vacation).
> And there's also the issue Daryl raised about being asked to show the
> license multiple times a day, which is really upsetting.
> There may be a way to implement something that would limit fakers and
> preserve our rights at the same time. Unfortunately I've been doing legal
> research all day on another issue and my brain is kind of fried so I can't
> come up with a creative solution at the moment, but I'll continue to think
> about it.
> I do have to say that I carry Mopsy's seeing eye ID with me everywhere, and
> I have no problem showing it to someone who asks for proof that Mopsy is a
> service dog. I know I don't have to do this, and I've even had people tell
> me that by showing Mopsy's ID I'm hurting people with service dogs who don't
> have IDs. But it's a whole lot simpler to just show the ID than fighting
> back when I have the ID. I can't fight on every issue. I also inform them
> that while I have an ID, not all schools give IDs, and under the ADA they
> can't legally ask for an ID in the first place. I recognize that it may not
> always be effective to give them the proof they ask for while at the same
> time telling them they can't legally ask for it, but I've found people tend
> to be much more sensitive to this after I have shown them the ID and
> legitimized myself. They're much more willing to talk and learn.
> So I guess my point is, it's complicated. I understand and agree with both
> the reasons for such a law and the reasons against it. I agree that without
> safeguards, a service dog license law would be a violation of our rights.
> But at the same time, something has to be done about the fakers.
> Stay warm!
> Jameyanne and Mopsy
> jameyanne at gmail.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gary Steeves via
> NAGDU
> Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 12:54 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Gary Steeves <rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Service dog license
>
> Hi Daryl what province is it in
>
> On February 11, 2017 9:09:40 PM PST, Daryl via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
>> I live in Canada, and one of our provinces has enacted such a law. It's
>> honestly been incredibly frustrating. People who live there have told
>> me that just by going about their business with their service dogs,
>> they are asked for identifying documents several times a day. One has
>> even told me that she is reluctant to leave her house with her service
>> dog because she gets asked for paperwork so frequently. They have not
>> addressed the issue of owner trainers, or visitors to the province. For
>> example, if I travel there on a family emergency, I can pre apply for a
>> temporary ID card. This greatly restrict the movement of Canadian
>> citizens, which is against the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. If you
>> are getting asked for ID when you buy alcohol or verify your ID when
>> writing checks, it's because everybody gets ask for that information.
>> You personally are not targeted.
>>
>> On February 11, 2017 10:02:11 PM MST, Nancy VanderBrink via NAGDU
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> Dar,
>>> Apologies, I forgot about those groups, didn't intend to.
>>>
>>> I have to show ID when I go to get alcohol though...? and for things
>>> like writing checks and verifying my identity at the airport...
>>>
>>> Wouldn't something like this help with 'fakers'?
>>>
>>> I wonder if there could even be some sort of accreditation process
>> that
>>> you could go through if you owner? trained or had somebody help you
>>> train your dog to a group like IAADP?
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On Feb 11, 2017, at 11:54 PM, Daryl via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I can't speak for anybody else, but as for myself I have big
>> problems
>>> with such an idea. It makes people with disabilities who use service
>>> dogs targets for anybody who wants to see identifiable information.
>>> Yes, to drive a car you need a license. But you are only requested for
>>> that license if you are driving erratically. Also, if a person chooses
>>> to owner train their dog, or if they're disability makes owner
>> training
>>> the only viable option, they are at a distinct disadvantage.
>>>>
>>>>> On February 11, 2017 9:46:58 PM MST, Nancy VanderBrink via NAGDU
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>> Hey guys,
>>>>> So I'm going to make you mad at me but I don't
>>> understandsomething...
>>>>>
>>>>> If you have to get a license to drive why not one for a guide dog.
>>>>> I know that people who were glasses are supposed to have their
>>> picture
>>>>> taken with her glasses on and I guess I wonder why he could not be
>>>>> something like that but for us with our dog?
>>>>>
>>>>> I know figuring out how to come up with some sort of database of
>>>>> accredited schools and then how to figure out how to make sure
>> these
>>>>> places are accredited would be a process but I guess I kind of
>>> wonder
>>>>> if having it on something that already exists and is already
>>> official
>>>>> wouldn't that make it easier?
>>>>>
>>>>> I mean, if I have to go get a new ID when I move wouldn't it make
>>> sense
>>>>> to just go get a new ID with your picture of you and your partner
>> in
>>> it
>>>>> that way?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not trying to ignite a fire storm or anything I just don't
>>> really
>>>>> understand why this is such a big deal. I understand the need for
>>>>> privacy but I'm not even really saying that you have to say on
>> there
>>>>> why you have the dog I guess I really just kind of would think that
>>> if
>>>>> they could get accredited schools in a database and then the DMV
>>> could
>>>>> choose the school you went to given on some sort? of letter or
>>>>> something, why is that bad???
>>>>>
>>>>> Just trying to understand.
>>>>>
>>>>> vandyvanderbrink at outlook.com
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>> for
>>>>> NAGDU:
>>>>>
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/crazymusician%40shaw.ca
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> for
>>> NAGDU:
>>>>
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/vandyvanderbrink%40outl
> ook.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> NAGDU:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/crazymusician%40shaw.ca
>>
>> --
>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/rainshadowmusic%40shaw.c
> a
>
> --
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/jameyanne%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/k9dad%40k9di.org
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 05:23:07 -0600
> From: "Julie Johnson" <julielj at neb.rr.com>
> To: "NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users"
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Service dog license
> Message-ID: <3BA6932E96924E25A525BBDA96F429EF at JuliePC>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> Nancy,
>
> I appreciate your sincerity in wanting to address the situation. I am also
> glad you are open to learning why this might or might not work.
>
> First, who decides what programs are accredited? The programs themselves?
> The government? Some other organization? Who pays for this? There is no
> single accreditation entity for all guide, service, hearing, diabetic,
> psychiatric dog programs. Would some of the programs be accredited and
> other types of disabilities would be out of luck?
>
> Currently the laws in the U.S. state that a dog has to be individually
> trained to mitigate the handler's disability. There is no mention of a
> program needing to do this training or the person needing to prove their
> disability. In order to have an ID of some variety, you would not only need
> to list the dog, but the person would need to prove their disability. As
> blind people we don't really find this to be a problem, but what about other
> disabilities. I'm thinking those with a strong social bias like dogs who do
> psychiatric tasks or seizure alert. Who decides what is a disability?
> Currently people self identify and in the case of a legal situation a judge
> decides if a disability is in fact present. If we had to have ID's there is
> going to be a seriously long line for disability confirmations. I have had
> it proposed that doctor's be the contact to determine disability and I think
> this is a very bad idea. Doctor's understand the medical aspects of disease
> and disability, but they do not understand the legal side of the issue,
> which is what is needed in this situation.
>
> Then we get to the people who do not go through a program for their dogs.
> When it comes to programs for guide dogs, blind people have it made. We
> have a wide selection of very low cost options with not too bad waiting
> lists. That is not the case with every other type of disability. The
> number of programs compared to the number of applicants is low, making for
> long waiting lists. Frequently these programs charge large sums of money,
> in the thousands or tens of thousands, for their dogs. This means there are
> a large number of people with disabilities that choose to owner train or
> have a dog privately trained faster and for less money. This also allows
> for a greater flexibility in what training is provided, making the owner
> trained dog much more customized to the owners particular disability needs.
> So who accredits these folks?
>
> Then we get to the part that irritates me the most about the ID issue, well
> one of the parts anyway. Why would the entire program be accredited instead
> of each individual team? That feels like we are giving the program a free
> pass to slide through some dogs who are a little rough around the edges.
> We've all encountered program dogs who were not pleasant and the handler
> couldn't or wouldn't do something to address the situation. If we are going
> to do this ID thing, then folks who owner train and those who have program
> dogs must be treated equally.
>
> I also agree wholeheartedly with Daryl about what she said about when a
> driver's license is shown vs. when this dog ID would be shown. A Driver's
> License is never a condition of access. You aren't asked for it when
> entering the grocery store, when you get in the car or when you sit down in
> the restaurant. It can be used as proof of age or residency, but never as a
> condition of public access. Requiring a different standard of
> community access for disabled people is highly discriminatory.
>
> And yes, I owner train my dogs or in the case of the last one, had her
> privately trained. I'm very happy with that choice and don't see myself
> changing anytime soon.
>
>
> Julie
> Courage to Dare: A Blind Woman's Quest to Train her Own Guide Dog
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00QXZSMOC
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daryl via NAGDU
> Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 10:53 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Daryl
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Service dog license
>
> I can't speak for anybody else, but as for myself I have big problems with
> such an idea. It makes people with disabilities who use service dogs targets
> for anybody who wants to see identifiable information. Yes, to drive a car
> you need a license. But you are only requested for that license if you are
> driving erratically. Also, if a person chooses to owner train their dog, or
> if they're disability makes owner training the only viable option, they are
> at a distinct disadvantage.
>
> On February 11, 2017 9:46:58 PM MST, Nancy VanderBrink via NAGDU
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Hey guys,
>> So I'm going to make you mad at me but I don't understandsomething...
>>
>> If you have to get a license to drive why not one for a guide dog.
>> I know that people who were glasses are supposed to have their picture
>> taken with her glasses on and I guess I wonder why he could not be
>> something like that but for us with our dog?
>>
>> I know figuring out how to come up with some sort of database of
>> accredited schools and then how to figure out how to make sure these
>> places are accredited would be a process but I guess I kind of wonder
>> if having it on something that already exists and is already official
>> wouldn't that make it easier?
>>
>> I mean, if I have to go get a new ID when I move wouldn't it make sense
>> to just go get a new ID with your picture of you and your partner in it
>> that way?
>>
>> I'm not trying to ignite a fire storm or anything I just don't really
>> understand why this is such a big deal. I understand the need for
>> privacy but I'm not even really saying that you have to say on there
>> why you have the dog I guess I really just kind of would think that if
>> they could get accredited schools in a database and then the DMV could
>> choose the school you went to given on some sort of letter or
>> something, why is that bad???
>>
>> Just trying to understand.
>>
>> vandyvanderbrink at outlook.com
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/crazymusician%40shaw.ca
>
> --
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
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>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com>
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>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 06:36:57 -0500
> From: "Dan Weiner" <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: [NAGDU] Dogs finding the most unusual things
> Message-ID: <201702121137.v1CBaxGT009609 at mail46c28.carrierzone.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2"
>
> Well that does remind me of a story (oh no, here he goes again, Dan and his
> stories--loll)
> Picture the scene, dog numero dos, Evan who worked with me as a guide dog
> for ten and a half years and was retired two more. He got to be very good
> when it came to finding counters and such.
> We would walk in to the publiks, (supermarket down here) and I'd say find
> the counter and he did know that I was going to customer service. That
> worked every time except for once--lol.
> I said find the counter, you know what the deal is, buddy", yes a long
> command but what can I say, I'm just telling the story...He started prancing
> off in the direction I knew we needed, but then there was s a sharp turn. He
> stopped very proud of himself, I reached out expecting the counter, figuring
> there had been an obstacle to take me around and hence the sudden turn, but
> what did I find, the chew treats for dogs. What's even funnier is that I
> never bought him these long treats that sort of looked like slim jims, but
> he must have smelled it or who kows what...It was, I'll admit, hilarious.
>
> I wasn't sure they were long treats but a helpful customer informed me "Oh
> those are the chew treats for dogs"--lol and then I told them what happened
> and we all started laughing.
> Warmest regards,
>
> Dan and the Parker Hound
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of lkeeler--- via
> NAGDU
> Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 9:20 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: lkeeler at comcast.net
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] {Spam?} The myth of the magical cane
>
> Oh, but our dogs are supposed to know everything! Its funny how many people
> figure the dog knows exactly where I want to go! If left to Holly though
> I'll go into a store and end up standing in front of the dog treat or dog
> toy shelf! She does know where those things are!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Danielle Ledet via NAGDU
> Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2017 5:57 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Danielle Ledet
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] {Spam?} The myth of the magical cane
>
> Sandra, I always tell people this when I start to anser questions about dog
> guide school consideration. Very well said. Raul I agree.
> One of the frustrating things for me is going into an unfamiliar environment
> and being expected for us to work as fluidly as a team as we would in our
> own environment. If I do not know where I'm going or what type of terrain
> and obstacles to expect, how can I expect my dog to be on her best job? I
> have never faulted my dogs for my ineptitude during those times! Dan, that
> really was funny. And I especially want another dog with all the silent cars
> rolling around, and, no, I do not think that persistently living in rural
> areas is the correct solution!
>
> On 2/10/17, S L Johnson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I completely agree with you. If you cannot orient yourself to your
>> surroundings and know the rout you must take to get somewhere it will
>> not really matter whether you are using a cane or dog. I have seen
>> too many people get dogs thinking the dog will solve their mobility
>> issues. That is
>>
>> not true. You must have good orientation skills in order to be a good
>> guide
>>
>> dog handler. If I had not been such a good cane traveler with the
>> confidence I had I do not think I would have been able to transfer
>> that confidence to working with a guide dog. I guess I have to say
>> that I am glad that now the guide dog schools pay more attention to an
>> applicants cane
>>
>> skills. In the short time you have on class it would be impossible
>> for the
>>
>> trainers to also have to teach basic orientation and mobility skills.
>> Furthermore, as others have said, there are times you might want to go
>> somewhere without your dog. Your dog may become ill and you still
>> have to get to school work etc.... I know in my 42 years of guide dog
>> use I have found myself having to pull out my cane many times when my
>> dog was ill or when I was between dogs. So, even though I prefer
>> using a guide dog, I think it is important to have good cane skills too.
>>
>> Sandra and Eva
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Raul A. Gallegos via NAGDU
>> Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2017 6:01 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Cc: Raul A. Gallegos
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] {Spam?} The myth of the magical cane
>>
>> Dan, I definitely don't want to see this turn into a dog versus Cain
>> issue on the list. It's one of those things that has been brought up
>> time and time
>>
>> again and there is no real answer. However, that being said, it is my
>> opinion only that a fair amount of Cain travel skills are necessary in
>> order
>>
>> to be a successful dog handler. Canes are certainly not magic wands.
>> Although I am a good Kane traveler, there are people who are better
>> than me
>>
>> and there are people who are not as good as me. This is Merely my own
>> observation and not from a professional's viewpoint. One example of
>> how Cain
>>
>> travel is important to me as a dog user is, I will not depend on my
>> dog for
>>
>> 100% of my travel. There are times that I will not take my dog to
>> certain situations, or my dog might not be feeling well. Therefore,
>> having good cane
>>
>> skills is a must. I have met blind people, both cane and dog users who
>> had trouble finding their way out of a simple one door room with four
> walls.
>> It
>>
>> has made me sad that people like this have not been able to receive
>> adequate
>>
>> mobility training, or if they did, they have a lead that training laps
>> for one reason or another. The dog is not going to make someone be a
>> better traveler just like the cane won't, it is merely one's personal
>> abilities and
>>
>> goals with whichever tool one uses to utilize. There might be
>> situations that I am shopping at a store and will take my guide dog in
>> and out of the isles. However when I need to find something specific
>> that he might normally
>>
>> take me around, you bet I will take out my cane and heel the dog. I
>> hope my
>>
>> comments make sense. Thanks.
>>
>> --
>> Raul A. Gallegos
>> Assistive Technology Trainer - RGA Tech Solutions
>>
>> Mobile: 832.554.7285
>> Work: 832.639.4477
>> Personal Email: raul at raulgallegos.com
>> Work Email: training at rgats.com
>>
>> ??oAny teacher that can be replaced with a computer, deserves to
>> be.??? ??"
>>
>> David Thornburg
>>
>>
>>> On Feb 9, 2017, at 4:03 PM, Dan Weiner via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Gosh you make cane skills sound like some magic wand, I know if when
>>> I first got a guide dog someone had known quite how little confidence
>>> I had with a cane , judging by what seems to be today's standards I
>>> would have never been given a dog--lol. I'm glad guide dog schools
>>> gave people a chance when I, for example, started out. I got a dog
>>> and soon understood what I would need to do to become a good traveler
>>> with a dog and I worked hard and voila I'm using a dog 24 years
>>> later, have traveled all sorts of places,
>>> even other countries and so on... This though I only hear in one ear
>>> and
>>> of course am totally blind.
>>> fact is I was very motivated.
>>> this isn't directed at your question about high school but I am just
>>> amazed at how much I hear about people saying things like "oh before
>>> you have a dog you had better have good cane skills."
>>>
>>> And even now, every time I go for a successor dog they'll come to
>>> your home a lot of times and try out my cane skills on a walk and I
>>> hear grumbling about how I veer with a cane when I cross streets...if
>>> I thought I were the cat's miao with a cane I probably wouldn't
>>> necessarily opt for a dog, fact is it's a better mobility tool for
>>> me.
>>>
>>> Just an observation.
>>>
>>>
>>> No comments about the TVI, I actually agree with what's been said on
>>> that subject already.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> NAGDU:
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/raul%40raulgallego
>>> s.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> NAGDU mailing list
>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> NAGDU:
>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/sljohnson25%40comca
>> st.net
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> How far you go in life depends on your being tender with the young,
> compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of
> the weak and strong. Because someday in your life you will have been all of
> these.
> George Washington Carver
> Email: singingmywayin at gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/lkeeler%40comcast.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NAGDU mailing list
> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for NAGDU:
> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/dcwein%40dcwein.cnc.net
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 06:44:36 -0500
> From: "Dan Weiner" <dcwein at dcwein.cnc.net>
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Service dog license
> Message-ID: <201702121144.v1CBicRW008601 at mail41c28.carrierzone.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I just want to know if Mopsy has a sister named Flopsy and a brother named
> Cotton Tail.
> What a great name for a dog.
> Well, yes I know the problem of fake service dog users has become an
> issue, but on the other hand we need to be careful what we want to
> implement. The first question would be who exactly will give out this
> license, what would we need to do to keep it active, who would have the
> right to challenge us and so on...I suspect it is an idea best not carried
> out. I think the Ada rules need to be publicized more, businesses and other
> entities educated on their obligations and our obligations.
> Anyway I'll keep reading and see what we say.
> Wayne's idea is good, having a hcard talking about relevant laws wouldn't
> hurt us at all. The law is a hard thing to argue with--lol
>
>
> I would be very hesitant to adding any bureaucratic red tape to our use of
> guide dogs.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Wayne And Harley
> via NAGDU
> Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 1:47 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Wayne And Harley
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Service dog license
>
>
>
> Ms. Jameyanne,Rathe than showing an illegal ID for Mopsy, respectfully,
> would it not make a bit more sense to carry and distribute business sized
> cards with the ADA Service Animal provisions printed on them? Because, yes
> ma'am, you are indeed negatively impacting Service Animal teams that follow
> you by creating an expectation in the gatekeeper to see an ID from every
> Service Animal team that comes along after you.
>
>
> Yours, Very Sincerely And Respectfully,
>
> Wayne M. Scace?
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Jameyanne Fuller via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Date: 2/12/2017 00:22 (GMT-06:00)
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Jameyanne Fuller <jameyanne at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Service dog license
>
> Hello all from snowy Cambridge,
> I haven't posted on here much because law school has eaten my life (Mopsy is
> loving Harvard, though), but I have been lurking. I've always been curious
> about a service dog license law, so I'm chiming in with some thoughts.
> The ADA limits the sorts of questions you can ask about a person's
> disability, including why you have a service dog, and that's what a service
> dog license would violate. I may have missed something else more specific
> though. It's been a while since I read the ADA.
> I've always been personally conflicted about a service dog license law. I
> feel like it would discourage fakers, and the number of times I'm told by
> business people that people have tried to fake bringing service dogs into
> places and then the dogs have reeked havoc is really upsetting, because it
> means the business person automatically doesn't trust me or Mopsy.
> Setting aside the issues with the ADA for the moment, I don't think it's the
> sort of law that could be implemented in one state because it would limit
> people's freedom of movement (we don't have to get a license to go on
> vacation).
> And there's also the issue Daryl raised about being asked to show the
> license multiple times a day, which is really upsetting.
> There may be a way to implement something that would limit fakers and
> preserve our rights at the same time. Unfortunately I've been doing legal
> research all day on another issue and my brain is kind of fried so I can't
> come up with a creative solution at the moment, but I'll continue to think
> about it.
> I do have to say that I carry Mopsy's seeing eye ID with me everywhere, and
> I have no problem showing it to someone who asks for proof that Mopsy is a
> service dog. I know I don't have to do this, and I've even had people tell
> me that by showing Mopsy's ID I'm hurting people with service dogs who don't
> have IDs. But it's a whole lot simpler to just show the ID than fighting
> back when I have the ID. I can't fight on every issue. I also inform them
> that while I have an ID, not all schools give IDs, and under the ADA they
> can't legally ask for an ID in the first place. I recognize that it may not
> always be effective to give them the proof they ask for while at the same
> time telling them they can't legally ask for it, but I've found people tend
> to be much more sensitive to this after I have shown them the ID and
> legitimized myself. They're much more willing to talk and learn.
> So I guess my point is, it's complicated. I understand and agree with both
> the reasons for such a law and the reasons against it. I agree that without
> safeguards, a service dog license law would be a violation of our rights.
> But at the same time, something has to be done about the fakers.
> Stay warm!
> Jameyanne and Mopsy
> jameyanne at gmail.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gary Steeves via
> NAGDU
> Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 12:54 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Gary Steeves <rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Service dog license
>
> Hi Daryl what province is it in
>
> On February 11, 2017 9:09:40 PM PST, Daryl via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
>> I live in Canada, and one of our provinces has enacted such a law. It's
>> honestly been incredibly frustrating. People who live there have told
>> me that just by going about their business with their service dogs,
>> they are asked for identifying documents several times a day. One has
>> even told me that she is reluctant to leave her house with her service
>> dog because she gets asked for paperwork so frequently. They have not
>> addressed the issue of owner trainers, or visitors to the province. For
>> example, if I travel there on a family emergency, I can pre apply for a
>> temporary ID card. This greatly restrict the movement of Canadian
>> citizens, which is against the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. If you
>> are getting asked for ID when you buy alcohol or verify your ID when
>> writing checks, it's because everybody gets ask for that information.
>> You personally are not targeted.
>>
>> On February 11, 2017 10:02:11 PM MST, Nancy VanderBrink via NAGDU
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> Dar,
>>> Apologies, I forgot about those groups, didn't intend to.
>>>
>>> I have to show ID when I go to get alcohol though...? and for things
>>> like writing checks and verifying my identity at the airport...
>>>
>>> Wouldn't something like this help with 'fakers'?
>>>
>>> I wonder if there could even be some sort of accreditation process
>> that
>>> you could go through if you owner? trained or had somebody help you
>>> train your dog to a group like IAADP?
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On Feb 11, 2017, at 11:54 PM, Daryl via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I can't speak for anybody else, but as for myself I have big
>> problems
>>> with such an idea. It makes people with disabilities who use service
>>> dogs targets for anybody who wants to see identifiable information.
>>> Yes, to drive a car you need a license. But you are only requested for
>>> that license if you are driving erratically. Also, if a person chooses
>>> to owner train their dog, or if they're disability makes owner
>> training
>>> the only viable option, they are at a distinct disadvantage.
>>>>
>>>>> On February 11, 2017 9:46:58 PM MST, Nancy VanderBrink via NAGDU
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>> Hey guys,
>>>>> So I'm going to make you mad at me but I don't
>>> understandsomething...
>>>>>
>>>>> If you have to get a license to drive why not one for a guide dog.
>>>>> I know that people who were glasses are supposed to have their
>>> picture
>>>>> taken with her glasses on and I guess I wonder why he could not be
>>>>> something like that but for us with our dog?
>>>>>
>>>>> I know figuring out how to come up with some sort of database of
>>>>> accredited schools and then how to figure out how to make sure
>> these
>>>>> places are accredited would be a process but I guess I kind of
>>> wonder
>>>>> if having it on something that already exists and is already
>>> official
>>>>> wouldn't that make it easier?
>>>>>
>>>>> I mean, if I have to go get a new ID when I move wouldn't it make
>>> sense
>>>>> to just go get a new ID with your picture of you and your partner
>> in
>>> it
>>>>> that way?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not trying to ignite a fire storm or anything I just don't
>>> really
>>>>> understand why this is such a big deal. I understand the need for
>>>>> privacy but I'm not even really saying that you have to say on
>> there
>>>>> why you have the dog I guess I really just kind of would think that
>>> if
>>>>> they could get accredited schools in a database and then the DMV
>>> could
>>>>> choose the school you went to given on some sort? of letter or
>>>>> something, why is that bad???
>>>>>
>>>>> Just trying to understand.
>>>>>
>>>>> vandyvanderbrink at outlook.com
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nagdu_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>> for
>>>>> NAGDU:
>>>>>
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/crazymusician%40sha
>>> w.ca
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> NAGDU mailing list
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>> for
>>> NAGDU:
>>>>
>>> http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nagdu_nfbnet.org/vandyvanderbrink%40
>>> outl
> ook.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NAGDU mailing list
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>>> w.ca
>>
>> --
>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>> _______________________________________________
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>> aw.c
> a
>
> --
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
> _______________________________________________
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