[NAGDU] Is it really a problem?

Mon Feb 13 18:27:02 UTC 2017

Well, as far as he is concerned, I'm not surprised with all the fake service 
dog stuff going on!

-----Original Message----- 
From: Cindy Ray via NAGDU
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 9:27 AM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Cc: Cindy Ray
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Is it really a problem?

Oh, I'm sorry. Thought we were still talking about the Illinois legislator.
Really, do forgive.
Cindy Lou Ray
cindyray at gmail.com

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Buddy Brannan via
NAGDU
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 7:45 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Buddy Brannan <buddy at brannan.name>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Is it really a problem?

Umm. ... Nope. The person proposing the law in Pennsylvania is definitely a
man.

--
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Phone: 814-860-3194
Mobile: 814-431-0962
Email: buddy at brannan.name

> On Feb 13, 2017, at 8:42 AM, Cindy Ray via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>
> Let me just say that this lawmaker's name is Natalie. The lawmakers in
this
> day and age are not necessarily men. Natalie, wrongheaded as she is about
> this law, is a woman. I think we do need to be proactive, but sometimes I
> wonder if it gets too proactive too soon and then the problem gets created
> where it wouldn't have. But I do think we need to be prepared to let the
> world know that it is not acceptable to ask us to show a license. We can
> brainstorm to find another way.
> Cindy Lou Ray
> cindyray at gmail.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Buddy Brannan
via
> NAGDU
> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2017 7:38 AM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Buddy Brannan <buddy at brannan.name>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Is it really a problem?
>
> While I agree with you on ADI's role in this, the problem, while one I
> haven't run into a lot here, seems to be very real in other parts of the
> country. I wouldn't call it an epidemic or anything like that. On the
other
> hand, does it not help us to address the problem before it *does* get out
of
> hand in a prouctive way? Would it have been helpful to have told this
> lawmaker that the concerns that were expressed to him aren't real? Or,
> rather, does it not seem prudent to meet him where he is and take him to a
> place we want him to be?
>
> --
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> Phone: 814-860-3194
> Mobile: 814-431-0962
> Email: buddy at brannan.name
>
>
>
>
>> On Feb 13, 2017, at 7:56 AM, NAGDU President via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
>>
>> Buddy,
>>
>> My only issue with this message is that it states the problem is a
>> very real problem. I am of the opinion that it is not as big a problem as
>> the media makes it out to be. This is not to say that there have not been
>> issues with people passing their pets off as service dogs to take
> advantage
>> of the laws that protect our right to be accompanied by a service dog;
> only
>> that it is not the huge problem the media makes it. In fact, I believe
the
>> media is taking the lead from Asistance Dogs International which is
>> manipulating the media into a false belief that something needs to be
done
>> and they are the ones to do it. I think it is worthwhile for everyone to
>> take another read of an article that appeared in the May 2016 Braille
>> Monitor entitled, "Fake Service Dogs: Problem or propaganda".
>>
>> https://nfb.org/images/nfb/publications/bm/bm16/bm1605/bm160508.htm
>>
>> Assistance Dogs International has been leading the charge to certify and
>> register service dogs ever since the Americans with Disabilities Act was
>> passed. There motives are not altruistic or selfless. If such a
>> certification were to be implemented, they are positioning themselves to
> be
>> that body and gain the benefit from it! They put themselves out to be the
>> experts, creating what they self-righteously refer to as "ethical
> standards"
>> which many companies, wanting to do the right thing, have adopted as
>> policies, thinking they are, indeed, the experts. These ethical standards
>> require the wearing of vests, the presentation of identification cards,
> and
>> biennial recertifications!
>>
>> Fraternally yours,.
>>
>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU)
>> National Federation of the Blind
>> (813) 626-2789
>> President at NAGDU.ORG
>>
>>
>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
>> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
>> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind
> people
>> and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what
> holds
>> you back.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Buddy Brannan
> via
>> NAGDU
>> Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 7:45 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Cc: Buddy Brannan
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Service dog license
>>
>> Howdy,
>>
>> There's some legislation being drafted to addres this problem in my
state.
>> It is not yet drafted, and fortunately, the lawmaker who is proposing is
>> taking our input seriously. Jameyanne, here's what I wrote to his office,
>> which might clarify why I have issues with asking for service dog ID and
>> maybe why requiring such is not a practical solution.
>>
>> BTW Wayne, there isn't anything *illegal* about a guide dog ID, or the
>> issuing of one.
>>
>> Hello:
>>
>> I've gotten word that legislation is proposed that would punish those who
>> fraudulently represent a dog as a service dog when it is not one. Thank
> you,
>> first of all, for addressing this very real problem. It is a problem, and
>> the problem does need to be addressed. However, it needs to be addressed
> in
>> a way that will not infringe upon the rights of people with disabilities
> who
>> legitimately use service dogs. As, first, a guide dog user myself, and
>> second, as someone who has recently trained his own guide dog, I have
some
>> thoughts and concerns I'd like to share with you.
>>
>> While well intentioned, I think you may be coming at this issue from the
>> wrong angle. I'd like to establish where the rights and responsibilities
> lie
>> in this discussion. The right to be accompanied by a trained service
> animal
>> rightly belongs to the person with a disability. That means that it is
the
>> person, not the dog, who is perpetrating fraud in some fashion, either by
>> falsely representing that s/he has a disability, by falsely representing
>> that the dog has been trained to mitigate that disability, or both. The
> most
>> likely case is "both".
>>
>> Having said that, however, since the ADA stipulates that one cannot be
>> questioned as to the nature of his or her disability, there has to be a
>> different test. A certification of the service dog? For one thing, there
>> isn't one, and creating one would present its own set of problems. (If
you
>> want to know what those are, I'd be happy to discuss them, but that's
> beyond
>> the scope of this discussion, and the problems are many.) Anyway,
>> certification or ID. ID's are a dime a dozen. Anyone can, and does, get
>> them. The people perpetrating the fraud are most likely to have ID's and
> are
>> eager to show them. How, therefore, do you tell the real ones from the
> fake
>> ones? Certainly the two allowable screening questions in the ADA
>> implementing regulations help: most fakers will be able to answer the
> first
>> and will either struggle with the second or, at best, won't be able to
> give
>> a reasonable answer to it.
>>
>> The standard, therefore, is and must be behavior. Under that standard,
any
>> dog, whether service dog or not, can be removed from a place of business
> if
>> it is not housebroken, and especially if it isn't under the handler's
>> control or is aggressive or disruptive. This has always been the case.
>> However, whether through fear or ignorance, business owners are reluctant
> to
>> exercise their rights to have such disruptive animals removed for their
>> disruptive behavior. Whether a dog is a legitimate service dog or not,
> there
>> is no place in a public setting for it if it is disruptive or,
especially,
>> if it's aggressive.
>>
>> I'd suggest that the laws, first, address behavior of aggressive or
>> disruptive animals. Second, address the fraudulent misrepresentation of
>> disability. If, indeed, someone does not have a disability as defined in
> the
>> ADA, and if their dog is not adequately trained (something that could
> easily
>> be proved if it were aggressive or disruptive), that's where your
>> legislation could step in. Absolutely, give the false representation of
>> disability or of trained status real teeth. As outlined, it seems to me,
>> however, that your proposal would be unenforceable. The litmus test must
> be,
>> not the presence of an ID or certification, but rather the behavior of
the
>> dog in question.
>>
>> As I mentioned, I have trained my own guide dog. She's my fourth guide,
>> though only my first that I've trained myself. I started her out as a
> puppy,
>> and I would say that she's as well trained as any guide dog that came
from
> a
>> training program. How would your proposed legislation affect me? I have
no
>> ID for my dog, nor do I believe that I should have to prove that I, a
>> law-abiding citizen, am not breaking the law with my dog, who is very
>> well-behaved and always under my control. Laws should certainly be
> available
>> to penalize the guilty, but the innocent should not be made to bear the
>> burden of the behavior of the guilty. Conversely, I have met
> program-trained
>> dogs who have ID's issued by their schools, who are aggressive,
> disruptive,
>> and whose training has not been maintained by their handlers. Those dogs
>> would get a pass, and they absolutely should not. I can't stress this
>> enough: behavior, not ID, should be the litmus test here.
>>
>> I'd be happy to discuss this with you further if you want or need.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> --
>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>> Phone: 814-860-3194
>> Mobile: 814-431-0962
>> Email: buddy at brannan.name
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Feb 12, 2017, at 1:46 AM, Wayne And Harley via NAGDU
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ms. Jameyanne,Rathe than showing an illegal ID for Mopsy, respectfully,
>> would it not make a bit more sense to carry and distribute business sized
>> cards with the ADA Service Animal provisions printed on them? Because,
yes
>> ma'am, you are indeed negatively impacting Service Animal teams that
> follow
>> you by creating an expectation in the gatekeeper to see an ID from every
>> Service Animal team that comes along after you.
>>>
>>>
>>> Yours, Very Sincerely And Respectfully,
>>>
>>> Wayne M. Scace
>>>
>>> -------- Original message --------
>>> From: Jameyanne Fuller via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Date: 2/12/2017  00:22  (GMT-06:00)
>>> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog
>> Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Jameyanne Fuller <jameyanne at gmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Service dog license
>>>
>>> Hello all from snowy Cambridge,
>>> I haven't posted on here much because law school has eaten my life
(Mopsy
>> is
>>> loving Harvard, though), but I have been lurking. I've always been
> curious
>>> about a service dog license law, so I'm chiming in with some thoughts.
>>> The ADA limits the sorts of questions you can ask about a person's
>>> disability, including why you have a service dog, and that's what a
>> service
>>> dog license would violate. I may have missed something else more
specific
>>> though. It's been a while since I read the ADA.
>>> I've always been personally conflicted about a service dog license law.
I
>>> feel like it would discourage fakers, and the number of times I'm told
by
>>> business people that people have tried to fake bringing service dogs
into
>>> places and then the dogs have reeked havoc is really upsetting, because
> it
>>> means the business person automatically doesn't trust me or Mopsy.
>>> Setting aside the issues with the ADA for the moment, I don't think it's
>> the
>>> sort of law that could be implemented in one state because it would
limit
>>> people's freedom of movement (we don't have to get a license to go on
>>> vacation).
>>> And there's also the issue Daryl raised about being asked to show the
>>> license multiple times a day, which is really upsetting.
>>> There may be a way to implement something that would limit fakers and
>>> preserve our rights at the same time. Unfortunately I've been doing
legal
>>> research all day on another issue and my brain is kind of fried so I
> can't
>>> come up with a creative solution at the moment, but I'll continue to
> think
>>> about it.
>>> I do have to say that I carry Mopsy's seeing eye ID with me everywhere,
>> and
>>> I have no problem showing it to someone who asks for proof that Mopsy is
> a
>>> service dog. I know I don't have to do this, and I've even had people
> tell
>>> me that by showing Mopsy's ID I'm hurting people with service dogs who
>> don't
>>> have IDs. But it's a whole lot simpler to just show the ID than fighting
>>> back when I have the ID. I can't fight on every issue. I also inform
them
>>> that while I have an ID, not all schools give IDs, and under the ADA
they
>>> can't legally ask for an ID in the first place. I recognize that it may
>> not
>>> always be effective to give them the proof they ask for while at the
same
>>> time telling them they can't legally ask for it, but I've found people
>> tend
>>> to be much more sensitive to this after I have shown them the ID and
>>> legitimized myself. They're much more willing to talk and learn.
>>> So I guess my point is, it's complicated. I understand and agree with
> both
>>> the reasons for such a law and the reasons against it. I agree that
>> without
>>> safeguards, a service dog license law would be a violation of our
rights.
>>> But at the same time, something has to be done about the fakers.
>>> Stay warm!
>>> Jameyanne and Mopsy
>>> jameyanne at gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Gary Steeves
>> via
>>> NAGDU
>>> Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2017 12:54 AM
>>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: Gary Steeves <rainshadowmusic at shaw.ca>
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Service dog license
>>>
>>> Hi Daryl what province is it in
>>>
>>> On February 11, 2017 9:09:40 PM PST, Daryl via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>> I live in Canada, and one of our provinces has enacted such a law. It's
>>>> honestly been incredibly frustrating. People who live there have told
>>>> me that just by going about their business with their service dogs,
>>>> they are asked for identifying documents several times a day. One has
>>>> even told me that she is reluctant to leave her house with her service
>>>> dog because she gets asked for paperwork so frequently. They have not
>>>> addressed the issue of owner trainers, or visitors to the province. For
>>>> example, if I travel there on a family emergency, I can pre apply for a
>>>> temporary ID card. This greatly restrict the movement of Canadian
>>>> citizens, which is against the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. If you
>>>> are getting asked for ID when you buy alcohol or verify your ID when
>>>> writing checks, it's because everybody gets ask for that information.
>>>> You personally are not targeted.
>>>>
>>>> On February 11, 2017 10:02:11 PM MST, Nancy VanderBrink via NAGDU
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>> Dar,
>>>>> Apologies, I forgot about those groups, didn't intend to.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have to show ID when I go to get alcohol though...  and for things
>>>>> like writing checks and verifying my identity at the airport...
>>>>>
>>>>> Wouldn't something like this help with 'fakers'?
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder if there could even be some sort of accreditation process
>>>> that
>>>>> you could go through if you owner  trained or had somebody help you
>>>>> train your dog to a group like IAADP?
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Feb 11, 2017, at 11:54 PM, Daryl via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can't speak for anybody else, but as for myself I have big
>>>> problems
>>>>> with such an idea. It makes people with disabilities who use service
>>>>> dogs targets for anybody who wants to see identifiable information.
>>>>> Yes, to drive a car you need a license. But you are only requested for
>>>>> that license if you are driving erratically. Also, if a person chooses
>>>>> to owner train their dog, or if they're disability makes owner
>>>> training
>>>>> the only viable option, they are at a distinct disadvantage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On February 11, 2017 9:46:58 PM MST, Nancy VanderBrink via NAGDU
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hey guys,
>>>>>>> So I'm going to make you mad at me but I don't
>>>>> understandsomething...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you have to get a license to drive why not one for a guide dog.
>>>>>>> I know that people who were glasses are supposed to have their
>>>>> picture
>>>>>>> taken with her glasses on and I guess I wonder why he could not be
>>>>>>> something like that but for us with our dog?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know figuring out how to come up with some sort of database of
>>>>>>> accredited schools and then how to figure out how to make sure
>>>> these
>>>>>>> places are accredited would be a process but I guess I kind of
>>>>> wonder
>>>>>>> if having it on something that already exists and is already
>>>>> official
>>>>>>> wouldn't that make it easier?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I mean, if I have to go get a new ID when I move wouldn't it make
>>>>> sense
>>>>>>> to just go get a new ID with your picture of you and your partner
>>>> in
>>>>> it
>>>>>>> that way?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not trying to ignite a fire storm or anything I just don't
>>>>> really
>>>>>>> understand why this is such a big deal. I understand the need for
>>>>>>> privacy but I'm not even really saying that you have to say on
>>>> there
>>>>>>> why you have the dog I guess I really just kind of would think that
>>>>> if
>>>>>>> they could get accredited schools in a database and then the DMV
>>>>> could
>>>>>>> choose the school you went to given on some sort  of letter or
>>>>>>> something, why is that bad???
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just trying to understand.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> vandyvanderbrink at outlook.com
>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> NAGDU mailing list
>>>>>>> NAGDU at nfbnet.org
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>>>>> for
>>>>>>> NAGDU:
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>>>>>
>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
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>>>> -- 
>>>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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>>> -- 
>>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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