[NAGDU] Guide Dog Training Program Agreements

Sat Jan 7 23:44:48 UTC 2017

Well I think the less restrictions the better, if any school doesn't trust
it's grads than maybe they shouldn't give dogs to such grads--lol.
Now as far as I know, the schools that grant transfer of title or ownership
on graduation are the Seeing Eye, Guide Dogs of America, Freedom Guide Dogs,
and Guide Dog Foundation, am I missing anyone? I do like keeping track of it
as I really do only want to receive services for a program that gives
ownership.

Cordially,
Dan W.

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray via
NAGDU
Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2017 6:37 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Cc: Cindy Ray
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Guide Dog Training Program Agreements

Oh, I think the discussion is good. You stated the ages to which you had
worked your dogs. I was wondering about mandatory retirement at eleven.
Maybe you didn't get all of your dogs from Southeastern? If not then the
question might not be valid.

TSE has the thing about the harness in their contract; they don't as I
recall have anything in it about their decision as to when the dog must be
deemed unfit. So far they have left it up to me, and they don't police the
harnesses unless they see someone selling one on EBay, such as in the case
of family selling the harness of a deceased relative. I have always returned
harnesses, but though they say they remain the property of the school, I
have never been told "Now you've retired your dog you must return that
harness." They don't even know I've retired Fisher. They don't have in there
to my knowledge that you can't work someone's dog, but I do think they take
a dim view of it. However, when we told them I had worked Chuck's dog, they
never made a deal of it. I might need to look at that contract as well.
Cindy

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of NAGDU President
via NAGDU
Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 5:29 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: NAGDU President <blind411 at verizon.net>
Subject: [NAGDU] Guide Dog Training Program Agreements

Cindy,

	First of all, I want to say I am very happy to see this discussion
and am very pleased with the responses we are getting! Perhaps we are
realizing that ownership does have its protections! To which mandate,
specifically, are you referring? I am of the opinion -and I am not an
attorney - that if you breach any part of the agreement the other party has
the right to have a court of competent jurisdiction decide the question. My
lay opinion is that, should a guide dog program bring a breach of  ownership
agreement to court, the court might question whether the other provisions of
the agreement are congruent with property rights law. In other words, if you
own some property, can anyone place restrictions on the use of such
property? Except for property given in consideration of the fulfillment of a
future contract, such as the giving of an advance for an appearance or the
giving of an engagement ring for the fulfillment of a contract of marriage,
property rights are forfeited upon the transfer of ownership. Either the
guide dog training programs transfer ownership or not. A car dealership does
not reserve the right to repossess your vehicle if you don't wash it or
change the oil regularly.

	While on the topic of comparison to a car dealership, has anyone
ever bought a car and been told, "You own the car but we own the keys. We
reserve the right to take the keys away from you at any time and for any
reason." Now, consider this paragraph from SEGDI's agreement that is found
in nearly every guide dog training program's agreement.

6. PERMISSION TO USE HARNESS. It is understood that the harness furnished to
the Graduate shall, at all times, remain  the property of SEGDI. In the
event it is  not, in SEGDI's sole  opinion, being put to proper use, SEGDI
reserves the right to  require its immediate return. Also, at the time of
retirement of  the Dog, or if, in SEGDI's sole opinion, the Dog is no longer
suitable for work as a guide dog, the harness shall be returned  to SEGDI
immediately. At no time is the Graduate permitted to sell, lend or retain
the harness once the Dog has retired.  

Again, we see that the sole decision-making authority lies in SEGDI. How
much influence does this give them over their consumers. Have you or someone
you know ever hesitated calling a guide dog training program because they
feared having the dog or the harness taken away because the program  may
believe, in their sole opinion and discretion, you didn't deserve the dog?
If training programs want better handlers, perhaps they should start
treating us like responsible adults rather than children who need their
oversight and permissions. If more consumers did not fear having their dog
repossessed because of some minor infraction, perhaps some of those
ill-behaved dogs we run across would not be so if they had better follow-up!

	Another paragraph we should consider is the one about not letting
anyone else use your dog. Would a car dealership tell you no one else can
drive your car? While at conventions, I have allowed others who wanted to
know what it is like to work a guide dog do so with my previous dogs. I
wouldn't let a novice work Sarge, though, because he is a lot to handle. I
was never afraid SEGDI would take Diamond or Louiza from me because of this
- I owned them! My wife has worked Sarge and, if I did not own him, the
program could remove him for this! How ludicrous! 

Fraternally yours,
Marion Gwizdala, President
National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National Federation of
the Blind
(813) 626-2789
President at NAGDU.ORG

The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind  people
and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what holds
you back.

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray via
NAGDU
Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 3:21 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
Cc: Cindy Ray
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Southeastern agreement Attached

Marion, do you know what happens if you disregard this mandate in the owner
policy? It was apparently not in place before?

Cindy

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of NAGDU President
via NAGDU
Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 2:03 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
<nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: NAGDU President <blind411 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Southeastern agreement Attached

David,

	I am not an attorney; however, I know I could have written a much
better, more grammatically correct document. As for being over-reaching, I
could not agree more. Many guide dog training programs have similar
provisions in their agreements. Perhaps we all need to look at the one's we
have signed!

Fraternally yours,
Marion

Marion Gwizdala, President
National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National Federation of
the Blind
(813) 626-2789
President at NAGDU.ORG

The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind  people
and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what holds
you back.

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David via NAGDU
Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 12:06 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: david at bakerinet.com
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Southeastern agreement Attached

Thanks for sending this, Marion.  Not only do several provisions
unconscionably overreach, they are poorly drafted.  Was it written by a law
school dropout, perhaps?

David and Claire Rose in Clearwater, FL

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