[NAGDU] Southeastern Guide Dogs Ownership Agreement

Wed Jan 18 01:29:49 UTC 2017

Personally, I have much more of an issue with the lack of due process then the ownership itself. If a person wishes to obtain a dog from a school that does not grant unconditional ownership then, while I disagree with it, that is their right. However, every handler who does not have unconditional ownership should have proper legal recourse if the school attempts to repossess the dog without cause.
I suspect that if the resolution is proposed again in the next few years then it will pass. I think that most who voted against it were only thinking of ownership and not about the lack of due process. Without remembering the wording of that resolution, I suggest a stronger emphasis on the lack of due process side of things when educating uninformed or under informed federationists.  

Jeff Young

> On Jan 17, 2017, at 1:51 PM, Cindy Ray via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> I think we are all willing to fight for our rights. Let's don't imply that
> some of us aren't. On the other hand, most of us don't know how one or
> another of us voted or felt or why, so we can keep this kind of thing to
> ourselves. If schools don't trust their clients/students/ customers with the
> dogs, they shouldn't give them one far as I am concerned. I have heard that
> argument time and time again, and I don't get it. Dogs are wonderful and
> should be treated correctly. People need to understand that they are the
> ones responsible for their dogs. If they aren't capable, they shouldn't have
> one. This is better than everyone being penalized because of them. After
> all, that penalty says that really none of us can be trusted in my world.
> Cindy Lou Ray
> cindyray at gmail.com
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of S L Johnson via
> NAGDU
> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 12:13 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: S L Johnson <SLJohnson25 at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Southeastern Guide Dogs Ownership Agreement
> 
> Hello:
> 
> The problem is that some guide dog handlers do not act like responsible
> adults therefore, the schools think they have to monitor all of us.  I have
> seen many dogs being forced to work when they were either too old or too ill
> to be working.  This is extremely irresponsible as well as cruel to the dog.
> 
> We all have seen teams that should not be working because the dog is not
> under good control or a safe guide.  I think the schools get worried about
> this kind of behavior by the handlers so they try to put things into their
> contracts in order to keep their dogs safe.  A much better way of dealing
> with this should be to give us ownership and deal with irresponsible
> handlers on a case by case basis.  I choose to use a school that grants
> ownership for my dogs.  The only way things will change is if more graduates
> of these programs are willing to speak out against the schools about their
> contracts and any other training issues.  I was amazed that the resolution
> did not pass at the convention in 2015.  Too many blind people are too
> afraid to speak up to a training center or official at a blindness agency. 
> As blind people we must be willing to fight for our rights.
> 
> Sandra Johnson
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU President via NAGDU
> Sent: Monday, January 16, 2017 7:44 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: NAGDU President
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Southeastern Guide Dogs Ownership Agreement
> 
> Mr. Levine,
> 
> First of all, I do own the operating system and the software on my computer.
> I paid for the Windows OS and for my Microsoft software. As for the iOS
> software on my iPhone, what I agree to is that I will not use the software
> in an illegal manner and will not corrupt the operating system.
> Neither Microsoft nor Apple have the right to take away my phone that I have
> paid for nor do they have the right to repossess the software I have bought
> without cause nor without due process.
> 
> Many guide dog training programs treat adult consumers as if they were
> children and many guide dog consumers allow them to do so. Until we stand up
> and oppose their paternalistic behavior and expose it for what it is, they
> will continue to treat us as they do. Take a look at some of these programs
> who say their dogs give blind people dignity then consider the undignified
> manner in which they treat them. Guide dog training programs need to let go
> of their archaic thinking and start treating us like responsible adults!
> 
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion Gwizdala
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Marion Gwizdala, President
> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National Federation of
> the Blind
> (813) 626-2789
> President at NAGDU.ORG
> 
> 
> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind  people
> and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what holds
> you back.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Howard J. Levine
> via NAGDU
> Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2017 8:54 PM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: Howard J. Levine
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Southeastern Guide Dogs Ownership Agreement
> 
> Just think of am I Phone or computers that so many people own, you don't own
> the software or the operating system. You buy the I Phone or a computer then
> you don't click agree then you can't use the I Phone or your computer. You
> need agree to apples terms and conditions before you can use the device.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Wayne & Harley
> via NAGDU
> Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2017 8:04 PM
> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
> Cc: Wayne & Harley
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Southeastern Guide Dogs Ownership Agreement
> 
> *Hello Ms. Tara,
> On the face of it, the petition is a good idea, however, what if Southeast
> Guide Dogs decides to take all the names on the petition and repossess the
> guides of the signatories, or refuse them any further service?
> 
> CAVEAT: Your Mileage May Vary
> 
> Wayne And Harley
> 
> *On 1/7/2017 10:21 AM, Tara Wiseman via NAGDU wrote:
>> What about writing a petition and creating a Facebook page for all
> Southeastern guide dog users  and see if you can get a bunch of people to
> sign the petition and send it to the school to have them change the
> contract. The contract certainly seems wrong to me!
>> 
>> Check out my podcast found at:abilitystories.podbean.com and on iTunes
>> 
>>> On Jan 7, 2017, at 7:05 AM, Erika Wolf via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I share your same concerns  stated regarding this ownership policy
> agreement  set forth by Southeastern Guide Dogs. What can be done to change
> the language of this ownership agreement?
>>> Owners of guide dogs  absolutely need to be protected upon obtaining
> their guide dog without all these preposterous unnecessary restrictions
> being placed upon the new handler.
>>> Hence, limiting the time a person can actually work his or her guide dog.
> This is extremely troubling to me as I read through all that you've
> outlined.
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>>> On Jan 7, 2017, at 5:32 AM, NAGDU President via NAGDU 
>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Dear All,
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>               FYI, I am sharing with you the ownership agreement of 
>>>> Southeastern Guide Dogs. This agreement was shared with me by a 
>>>> graduate of the program. I would like to call your attention to 
>>>> paragraph 3 of the agreement which states in part
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> "3.    RETIREMENT. It is understood and agreed to that the Dog
>>>> 
>>>> will be retired if, in the sole opinion of any SEGDI staff or 
>>>> representative, the Dog is not healthy enough to continue as a guide
> dog.
>>>> It is also understood and agreed to that the Dog  MUST be retired on 
>>>> or before his/her eleventh (11 th) Birthday"
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Personally, I have some serious concerns about this paragraph. My 
>>>> first and obvious concern is that it allows Southeastern to 
>>>> repossess a dog with the sole discretion of any staff member of 
>>>> Southeastern should that person determine the dog is not healthy to 
>>>> continue as a guide dog. It does not require any objective evidence 
>>>> nor that the person making such a decision be competent to do so.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>               This paragraph also requires an owner to retire their 
>>>> dog on or before its 11th birthday. My second guide dog, 
>>>> incidentally from Southeastern Guide Dogs, worked until he was 
>>>> nearly 15 years old. Mike Sergeant used to refer to him as 
>>>> "Superdog"! My third guide dog, also from Southeastern, worked until 
>>>> she was 13 years old. It is my opinion that, if we own our dogs, no 
>>>> one has the right to require we retire the dog and the 11-year-old 
>>>> mark is arbitrary. Many of us have had guide dogs that have worked 
>>>> well
> past the 11 year mark.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>               Also, please pay attention to paragraph 5 in which 
>>>> Southeastern has the right to repossess the dog for reasons of 
>>>> "suspected abuse or negligence". This is troubling because it does 
>>>> not require any evidence of abuse or neglect, simply a suspicion of
> abuse or neglect.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>               Many other training programs have similar conditions 
>>>> which I believe are paternalistic and arbitrary. I encourage each of 
>>>> you to consider what you would do and how you would feel if someone 
>>>> levied an unfounded, anonymous complaint of abuse or neglect against 
>>>> you and, based upon this anonymous, unfounded complaint and, inspite 
>>>> of the assertions of your veterinarian and close family and friends, 
>>>> there was no evidence of abuse, your dog was repossessed. Lest you 
>>>> say this would not happen, let me tell you it has and is currently
> occurring!
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>>> 
>>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU)
>>>> 
>>>> National Federation of the Blind
>>>> 
>>>> (813) 626-2789
>>>> 
>>>> President at NAGDU.ORG
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the 
>>>> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise 
>>>> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind 
>>>> people and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is 
>>>> not what holds you back.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
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>>> 
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> 
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