[NAGDU] Guide Dog Training Costs (was ownership contracts)

Buddy Brannan buddy at brannan.name
Thu Jan 19 01:31:22 UTC 2017 

Howdy,

I think my costs ran to somewhat higher than Wayne's, also not taking into account time invested at some arbitrary per hour rate. There were, however, a couple of things that contributed. Here's my list:

* Multiple harnesses and leashes, in part because I'm a gearaholic now, and because Hildegard chewed through her share of leashes. Even at $12 or so per leash, and even having a spare or two, well, I have probably bought somewhere between 6 and 10 leashes. Oh, and goingon three harnesses, one a quite expensive leather harness, one of Julie's, and now a new one I'm gamma testing, made from biothane, by Snowflake Craft. This last, even though I got a discount for gamma tst, still ran into a bit of money anyway. 
* Hip -rays: I got 'em. I'll gt 'em again shortly, just so I know, but I'm confident in Hilde's hips from the last time. 
* Puppy shots: I got Hilde as an eight week old puppy. I think I recall Wayne adopted his a bit older. 
* Spay: a bit more expensive than a male neuter. I could have gone to a low cost spay/neuter, but I didn't, and it cost me something right around $300. 
* The usual vet and food expenses for all shots, checkups, heartworm preventive, etc.
* Sure, count in transportation costs. Yeah, I'd've had them with or without Hildegard, but they're still a cost.

I haven't totaled it all up, but i'd bet that just these things ran into a couple of thousand or so, maybe a bit more. It's true that many are just expenses of dog ownership, and again, I didn't take into account my time at some arbitrary charge per hour. If I did, I'd probably be closer to $5K or so. Certainly nowhere near $50K-$60K that the programs cost out per dog, but they have a lot of expenses I don't, such as:

* Facilities upkeep
* Facilities insurance
* Staff pay, not just trainers, but administrative staff, kennel staff, puppy raiser staff, student services staff, groundskeeping and maintenance staff, kitchen staff, and so on
* Other insurance costs
* Administrative costs like accounting and things
* IT costs, website, etc.
* Other PR, printing, outreach, phones. ...
* Veterinary costs, dog food, etc. for hundreds of dogs and puppies
* Travel costs for instructor follow-up, potential student interviews, prsentations
* Equipment costs
* Student board and training costs
* Likely a ton of things I'm forgetting

All of this stuff gets divided up for accounting purposes per team, I'm sure. 

--
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Phone: 814-860-3194 
Mobile: 814-431-0962
Email: buddy at brannan.name




> On Jan 18, 2017, at 8:04 PM, Wayne And Harley via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Ms. Cindy,Perhaps you missed the Caveat that I put in my previous email. To whit: "Owner Training isn't for  everyone, but it is, a viable option." Nowhere in my words was any tone of judgement about ability, financial means, or what not. I have stated on many occasions that Owner Training isn't for everyone. Cos it isn't. It works for me, but not you. Okay... At the end of the day we both still have working Guide Dogs regardless of who trained them.I was judging no one. I stated a fact. BTW: Expenses to raise, train and equip Harley ran about $1,000.00. Not factoring in the value of my time.CAVEAT: YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY 
> 
> Yours, Very Sincerely And Respectfully,
> 
> Wayne M. Scace 
> 
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Cindy Ray via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> 
> Date: 1/18/2017  17:09  (GMT-06:00) 
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org> 
> Cc: Cindy Ray <cindyray at gmail.com> 
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Ownership comments South east situation 
> 
> Wayne, owner training isn't a viable option for many of us, so please try to respect that we all have our means, our abilities, our patience, our money or not, etc. Let's don't play the judgment card here. This topic isn't about whether or not we can pay for or raise our own and train them; this topic is whether we are respected enough to be trusted with our dogs. If you think about it, these are not permanent loan like the NLS Machines. In your heart you own the dog. If it is your dog and you own it in your heart, the fear of its being taken away and how that might be done has some real stress to it. I think you people who have ways of paying full price for your dogs need to take into consideration that many of us do not have this ability. I can't imagine having to raise funds that some of the other service dog users have to raise. 
> Cindy Lou Ray
> cindyray at gmail.com
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Wayne And Harley via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 5:01 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Wayne And Harley <k9dad at k9di.org>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Ownership comments South east situation
> 
> 
>     
> Howard,You've made some interesting comments. Particularly regarding "putting you money where your mouth is".I agree totally, as I have done so. I footed the entire bill of adopting, raising, medical, training and equipping Harley D ( my current Service Animal ). It was, and is one of the best investments that I've ever made. True, though,  Owner Training isn't for  everyone, but it is, a viable option.
> 
> 
> Yours, Very Sincerely And Respectfully,
> 
> Wayne M. Scace 
> 
> -------- Original message --------
> From: "Howard J. Levine via NAGDU" <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Date: 1/18/2017  07:26  (GMT-06:00) 
> To: "'NAGDU Mailing List,	the National Association of Guide Dog Users'" <nagdu at nfbnet.org> 
> Cc: "Howard J. Levine" <WB2HWW at earthlink.net>, 'Jimmy' <jimmydagerman80 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Ownership comments South east situation 
> 
> Thank you I agree with you, every one thinks that they have right to something for free or almost no cost. Just look how this country voted. Just because we are blind does not give us the right to say I wanted it for free.
> If you wanted it your way then go out and pay for it ,take out your check book or credit card like any other sighted person. If you want a car you write a check or take out loan.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jimmy via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 7:49 AM
> To: National Association of Guide Dog Users Gwizdala
> Cc: Jimmy
> Subject: [NAGDU] Ownership comments South east situation
> 
> Regarding the ownership issue, it seems this subject has been going on for a long time. I've believed that this  has been resented to the resolutions committee in 2016 and possibly in the past conventions and has not passed.
> When the resolution was presented to the resolution committee, the Nagdu board and its members were not informed that this would be presented to the resolution committee or given the opportunity to discuss the proposition to the resolution committee before the convention. I would think if NAGDU would want to present a resolution, all board members, including all other members, should have the opportunity to voice their opinions and vote as to if the majority feel a resolution is needed.
> Keep in mind these points. There have only been a few instances of what happened to the Southeastern graduate. In the other cases, and I am sure it will be claimed there have been numerous occurrences, we have not been given all the facts of each instance so that a informed decision or full understanding is made.Theoretically, one of those instances may of been justified; but then to say without providing facts on each case that all the other situations were discriminatory and improper without facts and proof of each case is not compelling. If you want to claim all the other situations, we need the facts on those cases as well.As far as the situation in Florida, we still have not heard indisputable facts as to all aspects of the situation. What has been presented are assumptions, hear  say,and lack of indesputable fact. A person should not assume or make an claim without all of the facts. Unfortunately, the individual ,regardless of the circumstances, signed documents from so
> meone they did not really know and did not read the writing. That is a horrible idea.
> Next point: This point has been mentioned so many times. As in choosing a university or place of employment, choosing to rent or lease a home or car, you do your homework and choose which  program/university, or financial program works bests for you. If  ownership is important to you and you are weary of losing your dog, do not go to that school. There are schools that offer complete ownership. YOu have options. If you don't like it, then you should consider the $50,000 the school paid and invested in that dog, and I am sure they will provide you ownership.I understand that some say it is the whole perspective and precedence of just not being able to own your own dog.It is assumed that the schools must be undoubtedly not giving ownership because of low expectations etc.BUt let's do some math. You have a school that has 12 classes a month with 25 students. This gives you about 300 students you are training and providing dogs to each year. Multiply this by
> $50,000 of the total cost of each dog in the program and you get $15 million. SO, my point to consider, if you investing and spending $15 million a year, you want to make sure the dogs are in good  hands, cared for, and that your product is being used in such a way the customer is benefiting and your organization is being reflected positively.Now, my consideration is to , instead of trying to force a company/organization to change their policy because you assume they have bad intentions, take a different perspective.
> Approach the issue from a different angle. What if we tried to work with the schools, rather than constantly criticize and ridicule them. Why do you think  fewer and fewer schools and their representatives attend our meetings and are not willing to participate? So instead, what if we worked on our relationships with the schools. Then, propose schools  put into place a committee or have a universal committee that all the schools implement. This committee could review and investigate any claims or reports of abuse or poor treatment of their guide dog.; then, they could report to thee involved school with the full investigative findings.This may not change all of the schools policies to give full ownership, but it would put into place a universal process to ensure just due process and investigation.That way, there  are no doubts or question if a dog was taken for no reason.
> In summary, I think we need to not let our emotions and our own agenda get in the way of what is factual and true.If there are countless other removals of dogs from their owners, I want to see the proof of each of those instances, and not just hearsay. I want numbers and facts.I want better relationships with the schools.I want us  to consider alternative approaches to the ownership issues if the body and board feel this is important.More so, we should consider alternatives to ensuring that due process takes place when a report is given to a school and not automatically assume the school is a bad guy trying to take every opportunity to repossess their dogs.Finally, If one of us invested $15 million a year to a product,  most of us would not give it away, no questions asked. And it not because we don't trust our customer. It is because we invested a lot of time and money into our product and we want what is best for the product and the customer.
> The way the dog and client team work and demonstrate themselves reflects on the blind community, us as federationists, and reflects on the school where the dog guide came from. This is not a black and white issue. There  are many facets to this issue. The federation body has spoken as to how they feel based on the failing of the resolution. But if this issue wants to be proposed again to the federation  body, the whole Nagdu body, including board and members, should have an opportunity to voice their opinions and decide together if we want the issue to go to resolutions once more.That did not happen in the past, and that is probably part of the reason why the resolution fell on it's face.Those  are just my thoughts and do not reflect on the board or the whole body's opinion. As a board member, I think all of our members should sound out their thoughts.We could also consider putting together a  accessible poll or survey to see  where the whole  NAGDU body stands on this issue.
> 
> Phone: 901-483-1515
> Personal Email: jimmydagerman80 at gmail.com Refer NFB correspondences to:
> secretary at nfb-tn.org
> 
> "Blindness never limits- Low expectations do! Live the life you want!"
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