[NAGDU] Ownership comments South east situation

[NAGDU President]

Mr. Boehm,

	I would like to comment on your message and some of the assertions that are made within it. Let me first begin with the issue of the resolution that was presented in 2015. Resolutions are presented by individuals asking the membership to support a particular policy stand. They are not presented nor endorsed by any division, chapter, committee, or other part of the organization. Though Vice President Mike Hingson and I were the proponents of the resolution, it was not presented by us in an official capacity as representatives of the National Association of Guide Dog Users. 

	As for the assertion that no information was offered in advance of the resolution, this is in keeping with the protocol of the National Federation of the Blind and the Resolutions Committee. The members of the Resolutions Committee are charged with reviewing resolutions prior to the meeting of the committee and those resolutions are never made public until the committee has reviewed them, their proponents have made their case for the resolution, and the committee has voted to recommend the resolution to the floor of the assembly. 

	If you were to review the minutes of the 2015 annual meeting, you would find that the resolution was brought to the attention of the membership during the meeting and members were asked to attend the Resolutions Committee meeting to hear the reading of the resolution. It is not appropriate for a resolution to be read in advance of its presentation during the committee meeting, thus the reason it was not read during the annual meeting of NAGDU.

	As to your comments dealing with the lack of complaints about guide dog training programs interfering with consumer's rights, gathering such factual information is problematic. Information concerning consumers who contact us about these issues is bound by the ethics of confidentiality. As a member of the NAGDU board, you have heard some of my reports about these issues; however, I am not at liberty to discuss many of the details without breaching confidentiality. The fear many of those face who come to me with these issues is that of being black listed by the training programs. This is a real concern and I know it happens. You only need to take a look at the application process to know that training programs talk to each other and some make decisions about whether or not to accept someone for training based upon the recommendation of another program.


	In 2011, the National Association of Guide Dog Users created the Guide Dog Consumers' Bill of Rights. This statement of rights was created by a committee of our members through a year-long series of meetings. The resulting document was endorsed by the board of directors, published in the Braille Monitor 

https://nfb.org/Images/nfb/Publications/bm/bm11/bm1106/bm110609.htm   

and passed unanimously by the membership at our annual meeting. This bill of rights includes the full and unconditional transfer of ownership upon completion of training and forbids the repossession of a dog without third-party objective evidence of abuse or neglect. 
	
	Some guide dog training programs respect the dignity of the individual, transferring ownership upon completion of training and refusing to accept anonymous complaints. Most programs, on the other hand, believe that blind people must prove they have the capacity to own a dog by requiring a trial period before transferring ownership, annual veterinarian reports, and mandatory retirement. I know there are arguments for these latter restrictions; however, it is my opinion that such arguments have valid counterpoints and alternatives. I believe  such policies are paternalistic, founded in low expectations of the blind in contradiction to the philosophy of the National Federation of the Blind.

	As for the ability to review a program's agreement in advance, the National Association of Guide Dog Users requested copies of the agreements consumers were asked to sign and only Guide Dogs of America agreed to provide their agreements. It is my opinion that all agreements asked to be signed should be given to the consumer well in advance of training, not when the training is almost complete. Once a consumer has completed their training, what are they to do if they disagree with the agreement. I suppose they could refuse to sign it and leave without the guide dog they just spent training with. Or they could sign an agreement they don't want and hope for the best. If such an agreement were to be litigated, perhaps the Court would agree that it was sign under duress - either you sign this agreement or you leave without the dog. Not much of a choice, is it?  

	I believe it is only a matter of time -and that time will happen soon - when a guide dog user will resist the paternalism of a tgraining program wishing to repossess a dog, forcing the program to litigate the contract. Should this happen, I believe the court will side with the guide dog user by asserting that ownership of a guide dog cannot be provisionally based on some arbitrary, capricious, unfounded issue or, as it states in Fidelco's agreement, at the sole and absolute discretion of the program. Even this clause smacks of paternalism and intelligent, well-informed consumers still sign it! Perhaps this consumer will be someone who has told me that guide dog training programs would never do such a thing! When the time comes, the National Federation of the Blind and the National Association of Guide Dog Users will stand with the consumer to remove that barrier from our lives!

Fraternally yours, Marion Gwizdala, President
National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU)
National Federation of the Blind
(813) 626-2789
President at NAGDU.ORG


The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind  people and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what holds you back.


-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of james boehm via NAGDU
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 12:00 PM
To: Nagdu Michael Hingson
Cc: james boehm; National Association of Guide Dog Users Gwizdala
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Ownership comments South east situation

Dear Mike,
Thank you for your info. Yes, it was told the resolution would be proposed right before convention. But there was no discussion from the board  or input taken from all other members as to if they felt the same. It was just a couple of individuals , as you said, that wanted this pushed in the resolutions. I believe, and I am sure many others, that if  Nagdu or any other organization wants to represent a issue a certain way , it should at least be discussed by all members and all members given the opportunity to give feedback, not just being told this is what we are going to do. Further, there has been no factual proof and full disclosure as to the reasons for any of the other instances. No actual number has been given as to how many other times this was happened. Actually, in 2015 this was asked. The reply was  " I am not certain exactly how many." We are thus assuming that these instances were not justified. There are instances where dog users abuse and do not treat their in animals appropriately. I have heard and others have commented at our conventions how some treat their guide. I feel sorry and are concerned about some of the dog's safety as well. So, without the facts, is it really a blind issue  or is it  a poor care issue. Animal abuse is not limited to the sighted population. And just because a person is addressed by a guide dog school  does not automatically make the actions discriminatory. Without any proof, facts, and stats, we are just assuming.If there is a pattern, where are the numbers? Where are the circumstances for each one of those situations. Every situation is also different. We cannot assume one situation is the same as every other. 
Now saying that, I again feel having a universal board/committee that
If you do not agree with the contract of the guide dog school  regarding ownership, then why do you sign the contract? As mentioned in my previous email, it is foolish to sign a contract that you have not read or agree to. If you do not agree with the school, go somewhere else.If a school. Like SOutheastern, noticed that it's consumers no longer applied for their school because of their ownership policy, they would have to take a look into their policies . This, however is not the case. Many of the schools, including Southeastern, have waiting lists as long as six months.Personally, I like having choice as a consumer. I do not want all model cars to be required to look the same and have the same features. I do not want all clothing to be one particular color,material, or design. As consumers and living in a free country, we have the right to choose what works for us.FInally, alienating ourselves from the schools, constantly attacking and disrespectfully addressing guests at our Nagdu seminars will not improve the situation either. That is why you see most of the visiting guide dog schools elsewhere during our program and the majority of NFBG guide dog users elsewhere during our meetings. If we are going to accomplish any changes, we first need the voices of all members to be heard and respected. The body should be the voice, not the top leaders of the organization.Next, we need to rebuild the relationships with the schools. If we cannot even have a dialogue with the schools and try to work together, how do you expect change? 
James Alan Boehm
Phone: 901-483-1515
Personal Email: jimmydagerman80 at gmail.com
Refer NFB correspondences to:
secretary at nfb-tn.org

"Blindness never limits- Low expectations do! Live the life you want!"

> On Jan 18, 2017, at 9:44 AM, Michael Hingson <mike at michaelhingson.com> wrote:
> 
> Jimmy,
> 
> Actually the board and thus the membership was informed that individuals
> were presenting a resolution in 2015. The original resolution did not come
> from the board but from two people. NAGDU did hear the resolutions at our
> first convention meeting that year.
> 
> Nagdu is not, as such, a judge nor a jury. We will not get all the facts
> about cases where schools remove dogs from their handlers. Nevertheless
> there is a pattern, when such cases occur, that seems to show that schools
> act in a high-handed way and do not have the best interests of their
> graduates at heart. 
> 
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> 
> Michael Hingson
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jimmy via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 4:49 AM
> To: National Association of Guide Dog Users Gwizdala <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> Cc: Jimmy <jimmydagerman80 at gmail.com>
> Subject: [NAGDU] Ownership comments South east situation
> 
> Regarding the ownership issue, it seems this subject has been going on for a
> long time. I've believed that this  has been resented to the resolutions
> committee in 2016 and possibly in the past conventions and has not passed.
> When the resolution was presented to the resolution committee, the Nagdu
> board and its members were not informed that this would be presented to the
> resolution committee or given the opportunity to discuss the proposition to
> the resolution committee before the convention. I would think if NAGDU would
> want to present a resolution, all board members, including all other
> members, should have the opportunity to voice their opinions and vote as to
> if the majority feel a resolution is needed.
> Keep in mind these points. There have only been a few instances of what
> happened to the Southeastern graduate. In the other cases, and I am sure it
> will be claimed there have been numerous occurrences, we have not been given
> all the facts of each instance so that a informed decision or full
> understanding is made.Theoretically, one of those instances may of been
> justified; but then to say without providing facts on each case that all the
> other situations were discriminatory and improper without facts and proof of
> each case is not compelling. If you want to claim all the other situations,
> we need the facts on those cases as well.As far as the situation in Florida,
> we still have not heard indisputable facts as to all aspects of the
> situation. What has been presented are assumptions, hear  say,and lack of
> indesputable fact. A person should not assume or make an claim without all
> of the facts. Unfortunately, the individual ,regardless of the
> circumstances, signed documents from someone they did not really know and
> did not read the writing. That is a horrible idea.
> Next point: This point has been mentioned so many times. As in choosing a
> university or place of employment, choosing to rent or lease a home or car,
> you do your homework and choose which  program/university, or financial
> program works bests for you. If  ownership is important to you and you are
> weary of losing your dog, do not go to that school. There are schools that
> offer complete ownership. YOu have options. If you don't like it, then you
> should consider the $50,000 the school paid and invested in that dog, and I
> am sure they will provide you ownership.I understand that some say it is the
> whole perspective and precedence of just not being able to own your own
> dog.It is assumed that the schools must be undoubtedly not giving ownership
> because of low expectations etc.BUt let's do some math. You have a school
> that has 12 classes a month with 25 students. This gives you about 300
> students you are training and providing dogs to each year. Multiply this by
> $50,000 of the total cost of each dog in the program and you get $15
> million. SO, my point to consider, if you investing and spending $15 million
> a year, you want to make sure the dogs are in good  hands, cared for, and
> that your product is being used in such a way the customer is benefiting and
> your organization is being reflected positively.Now, my consideration is to
> , instead of trying to force a company/organization to change their policy
> because you assume they have bad intentions, take a different perspective.
> Approach the issue from a different angle. What if we tried to work with the
> schools, rather than constantly criticize and ridicule them. Why do you
> think  fewer and fewer schools and their representatives attend our meetings
> and are not willing to participate? So instead, what if we worked on our
> relationships with the schools. Then, propose schools  put into place a
> committee or have a universal committee that all the schools implement. This
> committee could review and investigate any claims or reports of abuse or
> poor treatment of their guide dog.; then, they could report to thee involved
> school with the full investigative findings.This may not change all of the
> schools policies to give full ownership, but it would put into place a
> universal process to ensure just due process and investigation.That way,
> there  are no doubts or question if a dog was taken for no reason.
> In summary, I think we need to not let our emotions and our own agenda get
> in the way of what is factual and true.If there are countless other removals
> of dogs from their owners, I want to see the proof of each of those
> instances, and not just hearsay. I want numbers and facts.I want better
> relationships with the schools.I want us  to consider alternative approaches
> to the ownership issues if the body and board feel this is important.More
> so, we should consider alternatives to ensuring that due process takes place
> when a report is given to a school and not automatically assume the school
> is a bad guy trying to take every opportunity to repossess their
> dogs.Finally, If one of us invested $15 million a year to a product,  most
> of us would not give it away, no questions asked. And it not because we
> don't trust our customer. It is because we invested a lot of time and money
> into our product and we want what is best for the product and the customer.
> The way the dog and client team work and demonstrate themselves reflects on
> the blind community, us as federationists, and reflects on the school where
> the dog guide came from. This is not a black and white issue. There  are
> many facets to this issue. The federation body has spoken as to how they
> feel based on the failing of the resolution. But if this issue wants to be
> proposed again to the federation  body, the whole Nagdu body, including
> board and members, should have an opportunity to voice their opinions and
> decide together if we want the issue to go to resolutions once more.That did
> not happen in the past, and that is probably part of the reason why the
> resolution fell on it's face.Those  are just my thoughts and do not reflect
> on the board or the whole body's opinion. As a board member, I think all of
> our members should sound out their thoughts.We could also consider putting
> together a  accessible poll or survey to see  where the whole  NAGDU body
> stands on this issue.    
> Phone: 901-483-1515
> Personal Email: jimmydagerman80 at gmail.com Refer NFB correspondences to:
> secretary at nfb-tn.org
> 
> "Blindness never limits- Low expectations do! Live the life you want!"
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James Alan Boehm
Peabody College of Vanderbilt University
Human Developmental Counseling/Clinical Counseling: M. ED.

Contact Information:
Phone: 901-483-1515
Personal Email: jimmydagerman80 at gmail.com
Graduate Email: James.A.Boehm at Vanderbilt.edu
NFB Email: secretary at nfb-tn.org
Kustom Cane: kustomcane at gmail.com

-Audrey Hepburn: "Nothing is impossible, the word itself says ‘I’m Possible'"
Live the life you want!


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