[NAGDU] Southeastern Guide Dogs Ownership Agreement
NAGDU President
blind411 at verizon.net
Sun Jan 22 20:04:29 UTC 2017
Nancy,
I think that many people tend to bestow human qualities upon their
canine partners and the guide dog training programs, in an effort to put on
a good face despite their knowing better, tend to do the same. I believe
dogs - especially those working breeds that are best suited for guide work -
enjoy their work and have absolutely no concept of "enjoying retirement".
When people talk about enjoying their retirement, they tend to focus upon
such things as not getting up early, not going to work, and not working
late. They would enjoy their retirement by traveling, spending time with
their families, volunteering for their favorite cause, spending time
engaging in their hobbies, and learning a new skill. How do you think a
guide dog would enjoy its retirement after spending so much time with its
blind master? My dog loves to work and I believe that he, like his blind
master, will want to work as long as he is able. My dog will not enjoy
retirement since that will only mean lying around the house waiting for me
to return!
As I have already stated, my most recent two guide dogs - both of
which were from Southeastern - worked well past the 11 year mark. It would
sadden both Sarge and me deeply if my training program required me to retire
him at some arbitrary age when he was still willing, able, and excited to
work! It is my opinion that southeastern Guide Dogs is imposing themselves
into their consumers' lives in a way they do not belong and this is highly
paternalistic. I will continue to work to shift the paradigm of what we, as
consumers, should expect from the guide dog training programs and other
programs that assert they are serving us. What they are really doing is
being a disservice to us in much the same way other rehabilitation agencies
would do in the past. Such paternalism is archaic and contradictory to our
position of raising expectations for the blind so we can live the lives we
want!
Fraternally yours,
Marion
Marion Gwizdala, President
National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU)
National Federation of the Blind
(813) 626-2789
President at NAGDU.ORG
The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind people
and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what holds
you back.
-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nancy VanderBrink
via NAGDU
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 9:24 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Nancy VanderBrink
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Southeastern Guide Dogs Ownership Agreement
I totally agree with that viewpoint. I am a current southeastern handler
and I did not know about the changes in the agreement. The trainer who came
and did my annual visit mentioned something about retiring my dog at 11.
That is about a year and a half away from now so I don't know what my dog is
going to do between now and then. I like the idea of giving him time to
enjoy his retirement. In regards to whether the school would repossess my
dog or not. I have not personally dealt with this is you and I am not going
to dispute whether it is happening or not because I do not know enough to
know. I do think that a due process would be necessary to ensure that the
graduate perspective is well respected. I also think that evidence needs to
be acquired and needs to also be presented. If it is a situation where the
dog is in imminent danger I understand that but at the same time if it is
something that the graduate can work on rectifying I think the school should
assist the graduat
e rather
than simply come in and say 'this is it working, we are taking your dog.'
I will be honest I think that I am not going to be going back to
Southeastern for my next dog. Particularly because if I go back and get
another dog and my husband does the same we will have four big dogs to take
care of. Southeastern currently does not assist whatsoever with the care. My
husband's dog is from GDB and they do assist in some form or fashion. I had
a conversation with his trainer that came to visit recently and they were
helping me to understand some of the differences between the two schools. I
would need to find some more information and talk with folks some more
before I decide one way or the other. I have been with Southeastern for 10
years and this is my second dog through them. Admittedly he has had greater
longevity than the first match I had.
So, in spite of all of my rambling I simply just wanted to say that I think
the graduate needs to be represented in that situation.
Hoping I did not muddy the waters at all.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Jan 17, 2017, at 8:30 PM, Jeffrey Young via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
wrote:
>
> Personally, I have much more of an issue with the lack of due process then
the ownership itself. If a person wishes to obtain a dog from a school that
does not grant unconditional ownership then, while I disagree with it, that
is their right. However, every handler who does not have unconditional
ownership should have proper legal recourse if the school attempts to
repossess the dog without cause.
> I suspect that if the resolution is proposed again in the next few years
then it will pass. I think that most who voted against it were only thinking
of ownership and not about the lack of due process. Without remembering the
wording of that resolution, I suggest a stronger emphasis on the lack of due
process side of things when educating uninformed or under informed
federationists.
>
> Jeff Young
>
>> On Jan 17, 2017, at 1:51 PM, Cindy Ray via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
wrote:
>>
>> I think we are all willing to fight for our rights. Let's don't imply
that
>> some of us aren't. On the other hand, most of us don't know how one or
>> another of us voted or felt or why, so we can keep this kind of thing to
>> ourselves. If schools don't trust their clients/students/ customers with
the
>> dogs, they shouldn't give them one far as I am concerned. I have heard
that
>> argument time and time again, and I don't get it. Dogs are wonderful and
>> should be treated correctly. People need to understand that they are the
>> ones responsible for their dogs. If they aren't capable, they shouldn't
have
>> one. This is better than everyone being penalized because of them. After
>> all, that penalty says that really none of us can be trusted in my world.
>> Cindy Lou Ray
>> cindyray at gmail.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of S L Johnson
via
>> NAGDU
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 12:13 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: S L Johnson <SLJohnson25 at comcast.net>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Southeastern Guide Dogs Ownership Agreement
>>
>> Hello:
>>
>> The problem is that some guide dog handlers do not act like responsible
>> adults therefore, the schools think they have to monitor all of us. I
have
>> seen many dogs being forced to work when they were either too old or too
ill
>> to be working. This is extremely irresponsible as well as cruel to the
dog.
>>
>> We all have seen teams that should not be working because the dog is not
>> under good control or a safe guide. I think the schools get worried
about
>> this kind of behavior by the handlers so they try to put things into
their
>> contracts in order to keep their dogs safe. A much better way of dealing
>> with this should be to give us ownership and deal with irresponsible
>> handlers on a case by case basis. I choose to use a school that grants
>> ownership for my dogs. The only way things will change is if more
graduates
>> of these programs are willing to speak out against the schools about
their
>> contracts and any other training issues. I was amazed that the
resolution
>> did not pass at the convention in 2015. Too many blind people are too
>> afraid to speak up to a training center or official at a blindness
agency.
>> As blind people we must be willing to fight for our rights.
>>
>> Sandra Johnson
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU President via NAGDU
>> Sent: Monday, January 16, 2017 7:44 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List,the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Cc: NAGDU President
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Southeastern Guide Dogs Ownership Agreement
>>
>> Mr. Levine,
>>
>> First of all, I do own the operating system and the software on my
computer.
>> I paid for the Windows OS and for my Microsoft software. As for the iOS
>> software on my iPhone, what I agree to is that I will not use the
software
>> in an illegal manner and will not corrupt the operating system.
>> Neither Microsoft nor Apple have the right to take away my phone that I
have
>> paid for nor do they have the right to repossess the software I have
bought
>> without cause nor without due process.
>>
>> Many guide dog training programs treat adult consumers as if they were
>> children and many guide dog consumers allow them to do so. Until we stand
up
>> and oppose their paternalistic behavior and expose it for what it is,
they
>> will continue to treat us as they do. Take a look at some of these
programs
>> who say their dogs give blind people dignity then consider the
undignified
>> manner in which they treat them. Guide dog training programs need to let
go
>> of their archaic thinking and start treating us like responsible adults!
>>
>> Fraternally yours,
>> Marion Gwizdala
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National Federation
of
>> the Blind
>> (813) 626-2789
>> President at NAGDU.ORG
>>
>>
>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
>> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
>> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind
people
>> and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what
holds
>> you back.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Howard J.
Levine
>> via NAGDU
>> Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2017 8:54 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Cc: Howard J. Levine
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Southeastern Guide Dogs Ownership Agreement
>>
>> Just think of am I Phone or computers that so many people own, you don't
own
>> the software or the operating system. You buy the I Phone or a computer
then
>> you don't click agree then you can't use the I Phone or your computer.
You
>> need agree to apples terms and conditions before you can use the device.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Wayne & Harley
>> via NAGDU
>> Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2017 8:04 PM
>> To: nagdu at nfbnet.org
>> Cc: Wayne & Harley
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Southeastern Guide Dogs Ownership Agreement
>>
>> *Hello Ms. Tara,
>> On the face of it, the petition is a good idea, however, what if
Southeast
>> Guide Dogs decides to take all the names on the petition and repossess
the
>> guides of the signatories, or refuse them any further service?
>>
>> CAVEAT: Your Mileage May Vary
>>
>> Wayne And Harley
>>
>> *On 1/7/2017 10:21 AM, Tara Wiseman via NAGDU wrote:
>>> What about writing a petition and creating a Facebook page for all
>> Southeastern guide dog users and see if you can get a bunch of people to
>> sign the petition and send it to the school to have them change the
>> contract. The contract certainly seems wrong to me!
>>>
>>> Check out my podcast found at:abilitystories.podbean.com and on iTunes
>>>
>>>> On Jan 7, 2017, at 7:05 AM, Erika Wolf via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I share your same concerns stated regarding this ownership policy
>> agreement set forth by Southeastern Guide Dogs. What can be done to
change
>> the language of this ownership agreement?
>>>> Owners of guide dogs absolutely need to be protected upon obtaining
>> their guide dog without all these preposterous unnecessary restrictions
>> being placed upon the new handler.
>>>> Hence, limiting the time a person can actually work his or her guide
dog.
>> This is extremely troubling to me as I read through all that you've
>> outlined.
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>>> On Jan 7, 2017, at 5:32 AM, NAGDU President via NAGDU
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> FYI, I am sharing with you the ownership agreement of
>>>>> Southeastern Guide Dogs. This agreement was shared with me by a
>>>>> graduate of the program. I would like to call your attention to
>>>>> paragraph 3 of the agreement which states in part
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "3. RETIREMENT. It is understood and agreed to that the Dog
>>>>>
>>>>> will be retired if, in the sole opinion of any SEGDI staff or
>>>>> representative, the Dog is not healthy enough to continue as a guide
>> dog.
>>>>> It is also understood and agreed to that the Dog MUST be retired on
>>>>> or before his/her eleventh (11 th) Birthday"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Personally, I have some serious concerns about this paragraph. My
>>>>> first and obvious concern is that it allows Southeastern to
>>>>> repossess a dog with the sole discretion of any staff member of
>>>>> Southeastern should that person determine the dog is not healthy to
>>>>> continue as a guide dog. It does not require any objective evidence
>>>>> nor that the person making such a decision be competent to do so.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This paragraph also requires an owner to retire their
>>>>> dog on or before its 11th birthday. My second guide dog,
>>>>> incidentally from Southeastern Guide Dogs, worked until he was
>>>>> nearly 15 years old. Mike Sergeant used to refer to him as
>>>>> "Superdog"! My third guide dog, also from Southeastern, worked until
>>>>> she was 13 years old. It is my opinion that, if we own our dogs, no
>>>>> one has the right to require we retire the dog and the 11-year-old
>>>>> mark is arbitrary. Many of us have had guide dogs that have worked
>>>>> well
>> past the 11 year mark.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, please pay attention to paragraph 5 in which
>>>>> Southeastern has the right to repossess the dog for reasons of
>>>>> "suspected abuse or negligence". This is troubling because it does
>>>>> not require any evidence of abuse or neglect, simply a suspicion of
>> abuse or neglect.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Many other training programs have similar conditions
>>>>> which I believe are paternalistic and arbitrary. I encourage each of
>>>>> you to consider what you would do and how you would feel if someone
>>>>> levied an unfounded, anonymous complaint of abuse or neglect against
>>>>> you and, based upon this anonymous, unfounded complaint and, inspite
>>>>> of the assertions of your veterinarian and close family and friends,
>>>>> there was no evidence of abuse, your dog was repossessed. Lest you
>>>>> say this would not happen, let me tell you it has and is currently
>> occurring!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Fraternally yours,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>>>>
>>>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU)
>>>>>
>>>>> National Federation of the Blind
>>>>>
>>>>> (813) 626-2789
>>>>>
>>>>> President at NAGDU.ORG
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
>>>>> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
>>>>> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind
>>>>> people and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is
>>>>> not what holds you back.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> tt.net
>>>>
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