[NAGDU] Next Steps regarding Emotional Support Dog attack on delta.
Michael Hingson
mike at michaelhingson.com
Thu Jun 15 14:20:00 UTC 2017
It is important to remember that there is no relationship between the ADA and the ACAA.
Best Regards,
Michael Hingson
-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jenine Stanley via NAGDU
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2017 6:00 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Jenine Stanley <jeninems at icloud.com>
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Next Steps regarding Emotional Support Dog attack on delta.
Hi Marion,
You are correct about the two types of animals but strangely enough, there is no species restriction in the ACAA as of yet for either type, save for the types of animals not allowed in aircraft cabins in general.
We were hoping during the Reg-Neg that we could at least limit species.
> On Jun 15, 2017, at 8:22 AM, NAGDU President via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>
> Jenine,
>
> Though I am not as well-versed in the ACAA as I am in the ADA, it is my understanding that there are two classes of animals allowed in the cabin. One is, of course, trained service dogs & miniature horses. The other is emotional support animals that do not require training. I will do a little more investigation of this when I have a few minutes and send the implementing regulations, unless someone does so before I.
>
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion
>
>
>
> Marion Gwizdala, President
> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National
> Federation of the Blind
> (813) 626-2789
> President at NAGDU.ORG
>
>
> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind people and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what holds you back.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jenine
> Stanley via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 4:18 PM
> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
> Cc: Jenine Stanley
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Next Steps regarding Emotional Support Dog attack on delta.
>
> Hi Heather, the only part that you didn’t get, and it’s confusing an
> bizarre, is that under the ACAA, service animals, including ESAs can
> be of any species except rodents, reptiles and spiders. I think there
> might be another category in there that is banned from the cabin of
> aircraft but basically, under the ACAA, you can have a trained service
> cat, pig or turkey and it’s legal. You technically can’t take said
> cat, pig or turkey into an airport restaurant but …
>
> Under the Fair Housing Act though, service animals are only dogs and
> immature horses. ESA, called assistance animals, just to further
> confuse things, under that act, can be any species.d
>> On Jun 14, 2017, at 3:05 PM, Heather Bird via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> I believe, and please, if anyone who is an advocacy expert for a school or for NFB sees an error in what I am about to say, please set me straight for the sake of the list and for my sake. ESAs are defined under the Air Carrier Access Act and under Section 8, but not under the ADA. ESAs can be dogs, cats and some other animals such as rabbits, but service dogs can only be dogs or in some cases miniature horses. ESAs are covered across all airlines under the ACA, although the airlines all have slightly different wording in their policies, they all have to follow the ACA. Under the ADA, which does not apply to the airport or the planes once you go through the security check-point, psychiatric service dogs are treated just like other types of service dogs, but once you get under the jurisdiction of the ACA, psych dogs are made something sort of in limbo, less than other service dogs, and more than ESAs. They can not ask a blind person for documentation proving that they are blind, but they can ask a psych dog handler for a letter documenting their disability, such as PTSD, TBI, or Bipolar from a licensed mental health care professional. They cannot ask any handler of any service dogs, including psych dogs for documentation of the training of the dog. Feeeew, I hope I got all of that right.
>>
>> Heather Bird
>> "They came first for the Communists, and I didn't spreak up because I wasn't a Communist.
>> Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
>> Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
>> Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.
>> Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up."
>> - Martin Niemöller In our diverse society we must never fail to speak up in the face of Human Rights violations lest we be the next targets of such violations.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Ray
>> via NAGDU
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 11:19 AM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Cc: Cindy Ray
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Next Steps regarding Emotional Support Dog attack on delta.
>>
>> I'm not sure that the Act allows ESAs though. I thought that particular airlines had these policies on their own. But if you were going to allow ESAs that are small enough to be in a carrier, what about the bigger ones that really are useful. And the only animals allowed are miniature horses and dogs, so if you have a cat that you say is your ESA, it can't go no matter. There are so many circles in this.
>>
>> Cindy Lou Ray
>> cindyray at gmail.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Danielle
>> Sykora via NAGDU
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 10:10 AM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: Danielle Sykora <dsykora29 at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Next Steps regarding Emotional Support Dog attack on delta.
>>
>> Another potential option would be to limit ESAs on aircraft to dogs (or animals) that are small enough to fit in carriers under a seat.
>> This way, people who travel by air frequently that benefit from the presents of an ESA could still theoretically do so, but the animal could be safely confined should it become overly stressed, excited, or aggressive.
>>
>> I am by no means saying that a service animal could never cause a disruption, but ESAs by their very nature simply do not generally have the training or socialization that service animals do. Service animals who are out in public frequently develop the socialization to handle most environments without stress, and the coping skills to handle stress when it does occur. They also of course have the training requirement to not be disruptive. Although air travel is different in some ways from other public spaces, a dog that can handle being in a crowded mall, grocery store, restaurant etc. should be able to handle air travel. ESAs can not be in public places, and therefore generally are going to be expected to handle so many new situations all at once when traveling by air.
>>
>> At the same time however, there are people who genuinely benefit from the presence of an ESA and will handle their dog appropriately. This could possibly be a way to still allow these people to benefit from their animal. I'm not saying this is the right solution, but maybe something along these lines would work. I am inclined to say there is no need for ESAs under the ACAA, but then again I also know some people who truly benefit from the presence of an ESA.
>>
>> Judging by the last attempted negociations of changes to the ACAA, proposing a solution to limit situations such as these without imposing a burden on service dog handlers is going to be difficult, so I think it is important to think through any potential changes.
>>
>> Danielle and Thai
>>
>> On 6/14/17, Stacie Hardy - NFBHOU via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> Hello all,
>>>
>>> I think this would be a great topic. I think educating others will
>>> be forever ongoing.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Stacie Hardy <shardy at nfbtx.org>
>>> President: NFB of Texas Houston Chapter Voice and Text: (346)
>>> 704-0190 or (832) 779-7477
>>>
>>> "A question never asked is an answer never known"
>>> "Live the life you want!"
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Jun 14, 2017, at 8:59 AM, Cindy Ray via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> This isn't really about Delta, as I think others have said. It is
>>>> about a problem that might occur on any airline and did occur there.
>>>> I once argued with them because they wanted to give me a special
>>>> pass for my emotional support dog. I pointed out that he wasn't
>>>> one, but they insisted that they needed to make me a special pass anyway. But this has only happened once.
>>>> I think we need to continue to call airlines out as they do these
>>>> things, but the stuff seems so strangely inconsistent. It also
>>>> seems to be getting worse, note the situation on American, I think
>>>> it was, and not only with dogs.
>>>>
>>>> Educating gets old, yet we seem called upon to do it and also to
>>>> speak out regarding such events as happened on that Delta flight.
>>>> We can't just complain because emotional support dogs are going to
>>>> make it harder for us; we need to do something about it. Do we want
>>>> a resolution? Should the members visit about it at the NAGDU Meeting?
>>>> What does anyone think about next steps.
>>>>
>>>> Cindy Lou Ray
>>>> cindyray at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David
>>>> via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 7:11 AM
>>>> To: Heather Bird via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Cc: David <david at bakerinet.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Emotional Support Dog attack on delta.
>>>>
>>>> I, too, share your involvement with several other listservs. I
>>>> have searched and found no guide dog access issue reports involving Delta.
>>>> Would you mind sending references to a couple? or sharing the
>>>> report you filed on what happened to you on Delta?
>>>>
>>>> *David and Claire Rose in Clearwater, FL* *david at bakerinet.com
>>>>
>>>> *
>>>>> On 6/14/2017 7:49 AM, Heather Bird via NAGDU wrote:
>>>>> I am speaking generally based on all of the articles I come
>>>>> across regarding access issues from the various airlines. There
>>>>> are some that seem to have more than Delta, American Airlines for
>>>>> instance, and some that are relatively good, that have very few, South West for instance.
>>>>> Delta is not the worst, but they do have quite a fair percentage.
>>>>> One thing we have to bear in mind in order to be fair is the size
>>>>> of the airline as well. Delta is pretty big and well-known. If a
>>>>> really big airline has 10 articles about access issues that I come
>>>>> across in the year, this might be the same thing as a very small
>>>>> airline having two incidents in that same year. I have had minor
>>>>> incidents on Delta and once on Jet Blue. I am on this NAGDU list,
>>>>> plus the Seeing Eye mailing list and the GDUI list, and in the
>>>>> past I have been on mailing lists for other schools from which I have dogs.
>>>>> Also, Jim and I have no lives and we often search google and or
>>>>> YouTube for access issues, so we see a large number of media
>>>>> stories regarding access issues, including those on airlines. I
>>>>> have not made out graphs and charts and plotted every single
>>>>> incident in a scientific method to see which airlines are the
>>>>> worst offenders. I just know that I have seen a goodly number over
>>>>> the years, from Delta, especially with non guide dog service dogs.
>>>>> Jim had a run-in with Delta that was moderately bad, although most
>>>>> of his run-ins have been with airport personally. I hope that helps to clarify.
>>>>>
>>>>> Heather Bird
>>>>> "They came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because
>>>>> I wasn't a Communist.
>>>>> Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I
>>>>> wasn't a Jew.
>>>>> Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up
>>>>> because I wasn't a trade unionist.
>>>>> Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I
>>>>> was a Protestant.
>>>>> Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up."
>>>>> - Martin Niemöller In our diverse society we must never fail to
>>>>> speak up in the face of Human Rights violations lest we be the
>>>>> next targets of such violations.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David
>>>>> via NAGDU
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 10:12 PM
>>>>> To: Heather Bird via NAGDU
>>>>> Cc: David
>>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Emotional Support Dog attack on delta.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have had wonderful treatment on my Delta flights and I am
>>>>> unaware of Delta offenses related to service dog use.
>>>>>
>>>>> Could you provide further explanation regarding this comment, or
>>>>> the reason you made it, Heather?
>>>>>
>>>>> *David and Claire Rose in Clearwater, FL* *david at bakerinet.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *
>>>>>> On 6/13/2017 9:34 PM, Heather Bird via NAGDU wrote:
>>>>>> Delta is already one of the worst offenders for access issues
>>>>>> related to
>>>>> service dog use.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---
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