[NAGDU] Socialization and a factor that Jim and I noticed, was Next Steps regarding Emotional Support Dog attack on delta.

Thu Jun 15 14:54:39 UTC 2017

One thing that Jim noticed is that the passenger who was bitten was black. This spawned a few trains of thought for me.

A. Perhaps the victim was already afraid of dogs to begin with and his body language freaked out the dog. Perhaps he was outright aggressive towards the dog as in "You stay away from me, dog." Or overtly fearful "You keep that dog away from me, nice doggy, nice doggy." The first in a hostile voice or the second in a panicky voice.

B. Perhaps the handler of the dog was white and either racist and actively disliked the other man or had a bad experience with a black person and was fearful, and the dog picked up on that. If the dog sensed either aggression from his owner or fear from his owner, one of these could have set the dog off.

C. Because of the racial issue, I know a lot of social media is going to go absolutely nuts about it being a racist thing, even if that had nothing to do with it, and the owner, while negligent is probably going to get labeled a racist, white supremacist, an attack dog trainer, and all sorts of other things, even if he is a perfectly reasonable, kind person, aside from being negligent in socializing his dog.

D. There is a huge difference between training and socialization. You can have an absolutely excellent obedient trained dog who knows over 30 commands, recognizes over 50 words, but who is fearful of or aggressive towards any number of stimuli because it was not socialized. You can also have an untrained dog, whose temperament and a wealth of experiences make them very well socialized and generally safe, if ill-mannered. For instance, Ilsa is both well-trained and well socialized, thank you Seeing Eye. Dante, when we got him was extremely well socialized, due to having been a show dog. He loved men, women, kids, white people, black people, people in crazy outfits or costumes, people pushing strollers or using wheelchairs, didn't care if you touched his paws, belly, neck, tale, or during a vet exam more sensitive areas like is mouth, eyes, genitals or insides of ears. But he was very untrained. He could be stacked for examination by a judge, but his manners were terrible. He would jump on people, run in circles, not sit, down, stay, etc. As a well socialized, but poorly trained dog, he was somewhat unique, but very safe. He would have bugged the heck out of people in public, but he would have been perfectly safe. A dog with excellent obedience but that rarely leaves the house might appear safer in public, but if push came to shove it would pose far more of a danger to the general public. Of course, now Dante is well trained in addition to being well socialized.

E. Socializing our dogs to a diverse group of people is crucial. Many people think of puppy raising as taking the dog on the bus, the subway, into the city, into the country, to festivals, to work or school, etc. But it is equally important that they encounter people of varying appearance, condition and type. The obvious of, long and short hair and bald people, black and white and Hispanic and Asian people, tall and short, thin and heavy people, elderly people and children, for sure. But also, the things that reflect external, temporary attributes like funny hats, jingly shoes, swishy skirts or capes, tap shoes, masks that cover the face or the whole head. Additionally, people in different conditions. Our dogs get a ton of information from body language and from scents, so a young girl, vs. a woman who is menstruating, vs. a pregnant woman, vs. an older woman who has gone through menopause will all be very different to our dogs, even if not to us. People who are freshly bathed, and people wearing lots of scented products, people who have not bathed in a while, people sweaty from working out vigorously, people who have been drinking, people who eat lots of strongly spiced food, etc. These all present variation to our dogs. Also behavior, people talking, shouting, singing, being unusually quiet, people using ASL, people dancing, mimes, people who are openly crying, or angrily yelling. This is especially important for those of us who are social workers, psychologists, work in the criminal justice system or for educators, but all dogs of all handlers should be prepared for the huge variety of humanity out there. No, we can't go up to random women to find a menstruating woman and a pregnant woman. No, we should not regularly expose our dogs to people angrily yelling, who are drunk out of their minds, or people living on the street who haven't bathed in a month, but if the puppies go into public frequently enough, in enough diverse settings, they will encounter all of this. Also, we must ensure that our reactions do not cause the dog to become aggressive or apprehensive. For instance, if a puppy raiser is disgusted by the homeless person and acts angrily, then the dog might learn to associate people who move, look and smell like that as something bad. If the puppy raiser acts afraid of tall men, people of color, or people with bald heads or tattoos, then the dog could become apprehensive, so this is all interconnected and vitally important. One of my shepherds from Fidelco spotted my African American hall mate as he was moving in, in our co-ed dorm. She barked at him, and I wasn't having any part of it. I asked him to stand in his doorway, facing away from her, and I did sits, downs and stays. Then I had him turn to face her, and we did it again. Then he stood in the hall instead of in his doorway and we did it again. Then with him standing in our doorway, rinse, lather repeat. Then he came into the room. I shook his hand, gave him a high five, then asked if I could give him a hug. We talked, then I had her lay down and stay and he sat down on the floor. Then he would pet her and each time his hand touched her, I clicked and treated. Then he gave her some treats and rubbed her belly. We worked at it for about 30 minutes. We did this again three or four more times over the next week. She barked at one more African American male, and I arranged for a pet and play session with a group of five guys, one biracial and the other four black, and there were tennis balls, and treats, and belly rubs, and that was the end of that crapola. I do not think that her puppy raisers were racist, but I would hazard a guess that they were white, lived in a primarily white neighborhood, and didn't take her to many or any events in a racially diverse environment. So, yeah, even after a formal puppy raising program, we as handlers must be mindful and address any problems we notice right away. Oy vay. I lost track of my points by letter. The point is, that in this diverse world we must socialize and train our dogs, and that this dog in the Delta incident may have been untrained and unsocialized, or well trained, but poorly socialized. Thankfully the CGC includes some socialization factors as well.

Heather Bird
"They came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up." - Martin Niemöller
In our diverse society we must never fail to speak up in the face of Human Rights violations lest we be the next targets of such violations.

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jenine Stanley via NAGDU
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2017 9:06 AM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Jenine Stanley
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Next Steps regarding Emotional Support Dog attack on delta.

The unfortunate part is that such provision already exist within the ACAA, to remove or not allow an animal that is misbehaving or aggressive on the aircraft. Airlines are extremely hesitant to do this, even when they are in the right, fearing bad PR. 

Sadly as well, so many incident reports involving actual service animals have been so fabricated by airline staff that their claims when aggression or misbehavior are indeed present don’t hold much weight over the emotional testimony of the handlers. 

I do think the Delta crew may have had an opportunity to effect the outcome of this situation, by either moving the handler and dog or noticing the growling and banning the dog from the flight or requiring it to be transported in cargo. 

As with the ADA, it’s about the behavior of the animal, not the specifics of disability or training.
> On Jun 15, 2017, at 7:54 AM, Julie Johnson via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> I think the Delta incident is horrible in so many ways.  Others have expressed many things that went wrong and could have been done differently.  I agree very strongly with the person who said the owner of the dog should be accountable and not the airline.  At least the owner should be the main responsible party for this tragic situation.  Perhaps the airline is somewhat accountable, but I do not believe it should be to the same level as the dog's owner.
> 
> So what to do?  Many states now have laws that make it a criminal offense to interfere with a service dog.  Many states also have laws that make it a criminal offense for a person's dog to interfere with a service dog.  This means that the person is legally responsible for the actions of his or her dog and can be punished through fines or jail time for the actions of their dog. So why not make that same concept applicable in the other direction?
> 
> Specifically, I mean any dog owner, including those with emotional support dogs, service dogs, PTSD, or any other flavor of dog could be criminally charged for the actions of their dog.  This would put the emphasis on personal responsibility.  It would make behavior the issue, not paperwork or where the dog came from.  It would be public and documented so trends could be tracked and monitored.  It would make people think twice before taking untrained dogs into places they can't handle.  It would not punish or cause undo hardship to legitimate users of trained service dogs.
> 
> As an owner trainer I do not want to see my freedom to continue obtaining and training dogs to meet my needs be diminished or restricted.  I also feel that some individuals can and do benefit from dogs that provide emotional support.  I do not wish to presume that my disability is more worthy than what they have going on in their lives.  We are all people and should have the same opportunities.  However, when people do things that harm others or allow things to happen that have a significant potential to harm others, they need to be held accountable.
> 
> Julie
> 
> 
> On 6/14/2017 9:38 AM, Stacie Hardy - NFBHOU via NAGDU wrote:
>> Hello all,
>> 
>> I think this would be a great topic. I think educating others will be forever ongoing.
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Stacie Hardy <shardy at nfbtx.org>
>> President: NFB of Texas Houston Chapter Voice and Text: (346) 
>> 704-0190 or (832) 779-7477
>> 
>> "A question never asked is an answer never known"
>> "Live the life you want!"
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jun 14, 2017, at 8:59 AM, Cindy Ray via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> This isn't really about Delta, as I think others have said. It is about a problem that might occur on any airline and did occur there. I once argued with them because they wanted to give me a special pass for my emotional support dog. I pointed out that he wasn't one, but they insisted that they needed to make me a special pass anyway. But this has only happened once. I think we need to continue to call airlines out as they do these things, but the stuff seems so strangely inconsistent. It also seems to be getting worse, note the situation on American, I think it was, and not only with dogs.
>>> 
>>> Educating gets old, yet we seem called upon to do it and also to speak out regarding such events as happened on that Delta flight. We can't just complain because emotional support dogs are going to make it harder for us; we need to do something about it. Do we want a resolution? Should the members visit about it at the NAGDU Meeting? What does anyone think about next steps.
>>> 
>>> Cindy Lou Ray
>>> cindyray at gmail.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David via 
>>> NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 7:11 AM
>>> To: Heather Bird via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> Cc: David <david at bakerinet.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Emotional Support Dog attack on delta.
>>> 
>>> I, too, share your involvement with several other listservs.  I have searched and found no guide dog access issue reports involving Delta.
>>> Would you mind sending references to a couple? or sharing the report you filed on what happened to you on Delta?
>>> 
>>> *David and Claire Rose in Clearwater, FL* *david at bakerinet.com
>>> 
>>> *
>>>> On 6/14/2017 7:49 AM, Heather Bird via NAGDU wrote:
>>>>    I am speaking generally based on all of the articles I come 
>>>> across regarding access issues from the various airlines. There are 
>>>> some that seem to have more than Delta, American Airlines for 
>>>> instance, and some that are relatively good, that have very few, South West for instance.
>>>> Delta is not the worst, but they do have quite a fair percentage. 
>>>> One thing we have to bear in mind in order to be fair is the size 
>>>> of the airline as well. Delta is pretty big and well-known. If a 
>>>> really big airline has 10 articles about access issues that I come 
>>>> across in the year, this might be the same thing as a very small 
>>>> airline having two incidents in that same year. I have had minor 
>>>> incidents on Delta and once on Jet Blue. I am on this NAGDU list, 
>>>> plus the Seeing Eye mailing list and the GDUI list, and in the past 
>>>> I have been on mailing lists for other schools from which I have 
>>>> dogs. Also, Jim and I have no lives and we often search google and 
>>>> or YouTube for access issues, so we see a large number of media 
>>>> stories regarding access issues, including those on airlines. I 
>>>> have not made out graphs and charts and plotted every single 
>>>> incident in a scientific method to see which airlines are the worst 
>>>> offenders. I just know that I have seen a goodly number over the 
>>>> years, from Delta, especially with non guide dog service dogs. Jim had a run-in with Delta that was moderately bad, although most of his run-ins have been with airport personally. I hope that helps to clarify.
>>>> 
>>>> Heather Bird
>>>> "They came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because 
>>>> I wasn't a Communist.
>>>> Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
>>>> Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up 
>>>> because I wasn't a trade unionist.
>>>> Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I 
>>>> was a Protestant.
>>>> Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up."
>>>> - Martin Niemöller In our diverse society we must never fail to 
>>>> speak up in the face of Human Rights violations lest we be the next 
>>>> targets of such violations.
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of David 
>>>> via NAGDU
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2017 10:12 PM
>>>> To: Heather Bird via NAGDU
>>>> Cc: David
>>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Emotional Support Dog attack on delta.
>>>> 
>>>> I have had wonderful treatment on my Delta flights and I am unaware 
>>>> of Delta offenses related to service dog use.
>>>> 
>>>> Could you provide further explanation regarding this comment, or 
>>>> the reason you made it, Heather?
>>>> 
>>>> *David and Claire Rose in Clearwater, FL* *david at bakerinet.com
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> *
>>>>> On 6/13/2017 9:34 PM, Heather Bird via NAGDU wrote:
>>>>> Delta is already one of the worst offenders for access issues 
>>>>> related to
>>>> service dog use.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ---
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