[NAGDU] Eye Dog Foundation and Random other school? was, Fidelco, was, Criminal background check

Wed Jun 21 20:53:29 UTC 2017

KSDS does still exist, but I believe they only do labs. They do still train guide dogs. I think they have one trainer exclusively for the training of guide dogs, but I could be wrong. I might ask someone I know with a dog from there.
Cindy

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Heather Bird via NAGDU
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 1:59 PM
To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users' <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
Cc: Heather Bird <heather.l.bird at gmail.com>
Subject: [NAGDU] Eye Dog Foundation and Random other school? was, Fidelco, was, Criminal background check

Thanks, Buddy. I sort of half mentioned Eye Dog because it was there, but pretty low profile, then there was a scandle, then it was sort of gone, or dormant, and now its back in some way, shape or form. I am glad to hear that it seems to be back on its feet, and perhaps better than before? Does anyone on list have a dog from Eye Dog Foundation, especially someone who had experience with them, pre and post the difficulties they went through? I am a hopeless guide dog geek and I find this stuff absolutely fascinating. Now, that other school, I've got to find out what that's about. I know of some pretty small schools, Gallant Hearts which is very new, and Occupaws which may or may not still exist.  Would have to do a web search and see how they're doing, if they're doing. But I didn't know of a school in Washington. Its research time for sure. I know I know way more about guide dogs then the sighted public, and I'm pretty well versed among guide dog handlers, but I absolutely do not know everything and I love to get new information. There is a list of schools I know I need to do more research on, including KSDS, which I am wondering if it still exists and if so does it still place guide dogs, and Pro Trained Dogs, a program mentioned in the book Two Plus Four Equals One. So, yeah, Buddy, thanks for filling me in, and list, if anyone has info on Gallant Hearts, Eye Dog Foundation, KSDS, Protrain Dogs or knows the name of the school Buddy mentioned in Washington, please continue to expand my mind.

Thanks much.

Heather Bird
"They came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up." - Martin Niemöller In our diverse society we must never fail to speak up in the face of Human Rights violations lest we be the next targets of such violations.

-----Original Message-----
From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Buddy Brannan via NAGDU
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 2:44 PM
To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
Cc: Buddy Brannan
Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fidelco, was, Criminal background check

One small correction:

Fidelco is one of *two*, perhaps three, programs that train exclusively GSD's. The other two are a tiny program in Washington State whose name I've forgotten...something like Independence Guide Dogs or some such...and the newly rstructured and growing Eye Dog Foundation in Arizona. 

One interesting thing of note on the Eye Dog Foundation: I had a nice chat with the person in charge of the puppy kennels, who invited me to go and see their facility the next time I go to Arizona, which is possible since Ih have family there. Anyway, they are a program that seems open to blind trainers. They're not hiring new apprentices now, but they stated very publicly, on their Facebook page, that the perspectives of owner trainers are important and valuable and that they're willing to listen to our input along with others in the field. It's a pretty refreshing change. 

Sorry, I don't know what their ownership policy is. 

--
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Phone: 814-860-3194
Mobile: 814-431-0962
Email: buddy at brannan.name

> On Jun 21, 2017, at 2:29 PM, Heather Bird via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Hello, list. As a graduate of Fidelco, I feel compelled to chime in here
> with my thoughts on the organization. I should say that for background, I
> had dogs from Fidelco from 2006 to 2010, which was around the time that Mrs.
> Caman died and things started to go to hell in a hand basket. I believe that
> John Bifield had already departed at that time as well. First the positives.
> 
> A. They are the only school training exclusively German Shepherd Dogs, which
> is very important as almost all of the other schools in the country have
> discontinued or seriously down-sized their breeding programs for GSDs. The
> Seeing Eye and Fidelco are responsible for keeping GSDs alive as a guiding
> breed in the United States. Yes, some other schools still produce GSDs, but
> not in large numbers. Some schools have re-instituted their GSD breeding or
> tried to re-invigorate and build up their GSD programs in the past few
> years, which is great, but the numbers just aren't up yet. So, if you want
> to be guaranteed a GSD, Fidelco is the place to go. Now, Eye Dog Foundation
> sort of collapsed but I've heard from a few people that they are back. How
> strong they are, how the quality of the dogs is at present, whether their
> past problems have been overcome, I have no idea. Time will tell, but they
> are a very small program, so can only help the GSD numbers just so much.
> Also, given past miss-steps it will take time to see if they are a viable
> option for people at this time. I do wish them success as we need more
> quality producers of GSD guide dogs. But, case rests, for guaranteed GSDs
> you've got Fidelco and maybe, maybe Eye Dog Foundation. Yes, The Seeing Eye
> does produce a large number of quality GSDs, I believe they produce the most
> in our country for a school that produces a variety of breeds, but I'd have
> to look at stats to be entirely accurate.
> B. They provide home training. Most on-campus training programs provide home
> training, at some times for some students, but there are two problems. A.
> They often have pretty restrictive criteria for doing so. For instance at
> TSE you must be a former graduate of theirs to get home training, not just
> be a repeat guide dog handler, but you must be one of their graduates, even
> if you have successfully had home training from Fidelco or Freedom Guide
> Dogs before, and you wait a very long time, about as long as you would for
> Freedom or Fidelco. B. Home training is great, on-campus training is great,
> but when a school specializes in one or the other, they are experts at
> providing that kind and their ability to provide quality placements in the
> other type which is not their mainstay may not match up. It certainly could
> be as good or better, but there's no telling since that is not their area of
> expertise. I believe that the only two purely home training schools in the
> US at this time are Fidelco and Freedom Guide Dogs.
> C. Their dogs are wonderful. They are very intelligent, loyal, beautiful
> examples of their breed. Both of my girls from Fidelco were absolutely
> brilliant, gorgeous, outstanding dogs. Some people will mention health or
> behavioral problems in Fidelco GSDs, but similar problems do crop up in TSE
> shepherds as well, and even more so in the breeding programs at other
> schools where they are just now beginning to re-instate or to revitalize
> their flagging GSD breeding. So, personally, I think that TSE has the best
> shepherd lines Fidelco has a close second, Eye Dog Foundation is as of yet
> unknown and relatively untested after their recent return to the scene, and
> the other school's lines are hit or miss but are on their way to improving.
> For which  I am very grateful, BTW, because more quality GSDs available in
> our country is a wonderful thing.
> D. Their trainers are absolutely amazing. I have had unfortunate experiences
> with some of the Fidelco staff but never with a trainer. Every Fidelco
> trainer I have ever met or worked with was comparable in respectfulness,
> competence and knowledge to my favorite Seeing Eye trainers. The great thing
> about home training is lots of one-on-one time with your trainer and the
> terrible thing is also lots of that one-on-one time. If you like your
> trainer and work well with them, then it is heaven, if you do not get along
> well, then it is hell. I was lucky to have great working relationships with
> all of my Fidelco trainers. Now, I counsel caution regarding their policies,
> and what you say and how you say it to various staff members such as office
> staff, board members, etc., but the trainers themselves are absolutely
> great. I have met and or worked with 6 of their trainers, so that's a
> good-sized sampling for a relatively small school. However there was a lot
> of staff turn-over, which brings me to the list of cons.
> 
> A. The trainer who placed me with Drew retired, was fired, laid off, I'm not
> sure, in September after placing a dog with me in July or August, and they
> did not re-assign her cell or change the greeting on the voice mail so I
> left her messages requesting assistance not knowing that she was no longer
> there. That January another trainer came to do a placement with a dog that
> she and I mutually decided was not a good match, and by the time I was
> placed with Paisley in summer of 2007, that trainer was gone, again, for
> what reason I do not know. I do know two of the trainers that I met are
> still there today and the other two I am unsure of as to whether they are
> still there. The head of graduate services also sort of disappeared from the
> scene around the time I was retiring Paisley and I think that his departure
> had something to do with my unsuccessful reapplication to Fidelco for a
> successor. So yeah, high staff turnover, can be especially is rough, when
> the trainers are one of the best things about the school.
> B. Lack of transparency. They never had as good transparency as TSE, but it
> used to be much better. Example, their model of puppy raiser contact used to
> be great, I think preferable to TSE's current, no contact policy or other
> school's full and encouraged contact policy. They would ask the raiser and
> the grad if they wanted contact, and if both did, then they exchanged
> information and the grad and raiser could take it from there, if either
> party did not wish it, then there was not an exchange. However, this policy
> has now been changed to mirror TSE's policy of no raiser contact at all.
> Other examples, great and small abound of how the transparency of the
> organization has decreased over the past two decades, especially after Mrs.
> Caman's passing.
> C. Problems with placements. It is going to sound contradictory no matter
> how I try to explain it. After all, Fidelco is the reason I am now so
> devoted to GSDs. People have asked me "Heather, if you had problems with
> your GSDs, then why the heck are you so dedicated to the breed?" I guess
> what I can say is heartfelt but a bit circular or incomprehensible, and it
> is this "Look if I could have so many problems with my Fidelco GSDs and
> still be absolutely in love with the breed, then there must just be
> something very special about the breed and or, among the things Fidelco is
> doing wrong, they must also be doing many things right." Beyond that I
> cannot explain it. The first dog they gave me had an over-active
> prey/herding drive and she started nipping at people in a herding, not an
> attacking fashion and had to be retired. They took her to the school, worked
> with her, then returned her to me and she nipped someone the next day and I
> called the trainer who had left only hours before and said "Look, you need
> to come and get her right now, because University Police is at my door and
> I'm not turning her over to them or animal control, but you need to come and
> take possession of her right now for her sake." It was a minor nip that left
> a red mark, but did not break the skin. It was very traumatic as there was
> not much time to say goodbye, and due to being away at college, retiring her
> to my mom's house was not a viable option either. The school kept saying
> "It's not your fault. You are doing everything right." Which is not a
> comfort, let me tell you. I kept saying "Please find something I am doing
> wrong, because if I am, then that also means that I can fix, change or
> improve it and solve the problem." They brought a dog in the winter but she
> was overwhelmed by large groups of children and I was in the music education
> program to teach elementary school aged children, so the trainer and I
> agreed that she was not a good fit for my life, but that she could certainly
> serve someone who did not have to deal with such large numbers of kids on a
> daily basis. In the summer, one year after I got Drew, I was given Paisley.
> She was a great dog and worked for two years. She began to bond with my
> husband, despite the fact that he never fed or watered or relieved or
> groomed her. He did not walk her or play with her. He had very limited
> contact with her, just saying hi to her and sometimes scratching her behind
> the ears if she was on the couch with the two of us. However, Paisley was
> very observant, empathic and sweet. She picked up on his PTSD and decided
> that he needed her help more than I did. If we worked with him around at
> all, she would go crazy to try and stay near him, would get distracted from
> her guiding and follow him, refuse to turn and go a different way from him,
> look at traffic reacting to mini vans like the one that Jim drove. If we
> were out without him she was fine, accept that in our neighborhood she would
> keep trying to take me home. The trainer who came told me that I had let Jim
> pay too much attention to her, even though this was absolutely not the case.
> I do get that this must happen sometimes with some negligent handlers who
> flout the rules, but I had not done that at all. In hind sight, what I
> should have done was retire her, retrain her as Jim's Psychiatric service
> dog then apply to another school for a successor for myself. At that time
> the ownership policy would have allowed this, but obviously now, it does
> not. But I didn't know about psych dogs for PTSD and so I returned her to
> the school. I think that had Jim had his own psych dog when I got Paisley,
> she would not have felt the need to take care of him. I think it started one
> time when Jim hit the deck and took cover under a bench when fireworks went
> off. My mom and I and baby Jeremy were in the van on the side of the road
> when Jim went to retrieve a cooler from the place we had accidentally left
> it. He was out of the van a ways away, near the beach when the fireworks
> started going off. We could not just stay on the road like that and I was
> worried about Jim. So, I had Paisley go and find Jim. She lead me to him,
> where he was unresponsive under a bench. I think that flipped a switch for
> her that he needed help and she was going to help him. Every time I asked
> her to ignore him, or to work for me and not for him, when he was around
> just caused her anxiety and frustration. There was nothing I could have done
> to make her a viable guide for me, and nothing I did to cause this problem,
> but the first two trainers who had worked with me were not there to advocate
> for me. The graduate rep. was also gone or on his way out so he couldn't
> help either. I went through an appellate process when denied a successor and
> had to write explanatory letters when they would not even clarify what their
> reasons were fore denying my application. Had I or Fidelco known more about
> PTSD or psychiatric service dogs in 2010 this situation would not have
> turned out the way it did. Neither of my dogs from TSE ever had this
> problem, partly because Jim already had his own psych dog at that point,
> partly because I made TSE aware of Jim's PTSD, and partly because I was even
> more paranoid about keeping the dogs at a distance from Jim. When I first
> brought each home I told Jim not to make eye contact, or to pet them on any
> occasion for several months and to minimize even saying their names. I do
> think it will feel very good to see Fidelco reps at convention and have them
> see how I am successfully working GSDs from the Seeing Eye, who trusts and
> believes in and communicates with me in a way that Fidelco could not or
> would not.
> 
> Bottom line? I would recommend Fidelco to some people in some situations,
> but overall I have strong reservations. I love Fidelco in many ways and I
> really hope that they can change some of their policies and rebound to where
> they used to be in terms of quality when the Camans were still alive. I
> harbor no ill will and very much want to see them continue as a school, to
> thrive and flourish and improve, because I believe in their mission, their
> dogs and their trainers, and I don't want to see them disappear or to
> continue as they are.
> 
> PS, when I got my dogs the ownership contract was not as good as the Seeing
> Eye, but it wasn't as bad as it is now, either. Additionally, I did not have
> to undergo any background check of any kind. I had to submit references and
> such, but that is standard operating procedure at any responsible training
> program.
> 
> Heather Bird
> "They came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't
> a Communist.
> Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
> Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I
> wasn't a trade unionist.
> Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a
> Protestant.
> Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up." -
> Martin Niemöller
> In our diverse society we must never fail to speak up in the face of Human
> Rights violations lest we be the next targets of such violations.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of NAGDU President
> via NAGDU
> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 9:40 AM
> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
> Cc: NAGDU President
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Criminal background check
> 
> Dan,
> 
> 	I agree with you and have asked Fidelco for more information. I am
> very doubtful, though, we will get an answer to my inquiry, since Fidelco
> believes, as stated by their Chief Operating Officer, Julie Unwinn, that we
> do not deserve answers to our inquiries nor input into their policies since
> we do not pay for the services they provide. We are only the beneficiaries
> of such services paid for by their assertions that they help the blind.
> Their convoluted arguments reflect the arrogance of their CEO, Eliot
> Russman. 
> 
> 	While doing a little more research on this issue, I found a very
> interesting website with numerous comments from past employees about the
> corporate culture of Fidelco. You may want to take a look for yourselves!
> 
> https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Fidelco-Guide-Dog-Foundation-Reviews-E6546
> 08.htm
> 
> Fraternally yours,
> Marion
> 
> Marion Gwizdala, President
> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National Federation of
> the Blind
> (813) 626-2789
> President at NAGDU.ORG
> 
> 
> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind  people
> and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what holds
> you back.
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dan Weiner via
> NAGDU
> Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2017 10:29 PM
> To: Alana Leonhardy via NAGDU
> Cc: Dan Weiner
> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Criminal background check
> 
> I don't know, guys,is it really necessary, I mean, unless a school can tell
> me or convince me that they've had problem with people with criminal records
> in enough cases that this is warranted, I would be very hesitant to just buy
> in to that type of reasoning.
> 
> So let's see, all  do you need a criminal background check to receive
> services for the blind? What about other comparable services, yes I know, it
> all boils down to the argument about what you're allowed to ask if you are
> providing a service and ultimately it comes back to the same type of
> arguments we hear about ownership, to give ownership or not to give
> ownership.  If it were up to me, NAGDU and GDUI would be asking Fidelco why
> this is so necessary.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 6/18/2017 10:08 PM, Alana Leonhardy via NAGDU wrote:
>> Hi, all,
>> First off, if a school is going to require a background check, they
> absolutely need to use a fully accessible website.
>> On the issue itself, I think background checks are fine for a couple 
>> of
> reasons. I agree with some previous posters that having a criminal record
> should not automatically disqualify someone from being accepted to
> training...and if that's how some schools are doing things, then that's a
> big problem. I think that, with some acceptions for various serious crimes,
> things need to be looked at on a case by case basis.
>> That being said, the safety of the dog isn't the only thing that needs 
>> to
> be taken in to account. There are also the other student's to consider. For
> example, a person convicted of rape may be a fine dog handler, but it
> wouldn't be fair to potentially put the other students in danger regardless
> of how well that person may be able to work a guide dog.
>> Alana
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jun 18, 2017, at 07:03, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU 
>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
> wrote:
>>> 
>>> A friend of mine is applying to Fidelco, and he had to undergo a 
>>> criminal background check as part of the application process.
>>> Fidelco told him the IGDF is recommending that all schools add the 
>>> check.  He also said the website Fidelco used for his part of the 
>>> check wasn't really accessible, and he had to have a sighted person 
>>> fill
> out the form for him.
>>> 
>>> Just thought I'd share.
>>> 
>>> Tracy
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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>> 
> 
> 
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