[NAGDU] Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired Dogs & Rent

Julie Johnson julielj402 at gmail.com
Thu Jun 22 10:25:33 UTC 2017 

Buddy is correct I do currently have two working guides.  That wasn't 
exactly my plan, but life happens.

Monty was having some difficulties.  On the way to work he was going 
super, super snails pace slow.  He's always been a fast dog.  He would 
also stop randomly and for no apparent reason.  He was showing signs of 
being stressed.  I decided to start another dog.  Remember I 
owner/private train, so the time line is different.

I sent Jetta off to live and train with Meghan for a year.  She came 
back to me at 14 months old with excellent obedience, socialization and 
a solid foundation in guide skills.  Still she was only 14 months old 
and I was hesitant to have her work full time.  I was concerned about 
her mental maturity and experience level.  I wanted to take it easy with 
her for 6 to 12 months while I gently eased her into full time guide 
work.  During that time I planned on easing Monty into retirement.  Good 
plan...didn't work out though.

Instead I ended up leaving my job after much financial and programmatic 
drama, nothing to do with blindness, just politics and grant funding.  
Jetta came in August, job ended in November. That winter into spring 
Jetta developed a fairly serious dog reactivity issue.  I pulled back 
her work to pretty much training only.

Monty was doing most of the actual guide work.  Interestingly his pace 
picked up to normal.  He totally quit the stopping at random places.  It 
was my job he hated, not his.  Over the next year Monty 110% bounced 
back to his former self.  He loves to guide and does a completely safe 
and solid job of it.

I spent a year working through every training technique I knew of and 
some new ones in an attempt to get Jetta past her nonsense. In January 
of 2016 I had pretty much decided I was done and she was not going to 
ever work as a guide.  I own my home and can have multiple dogs with no 
legal issues.   After taking a total break with her, I didn't even take 
her on a walk for a month, I tried one last technique to address the dog 
issues and got results.

So for about the last year or so I've had two guides that are capable of 
working at any given moment.   It ended up being pretty crazy, but it's 
my life.  I'm really very comfortable with changing the 
working/retired/in training status of a dog if the situation warrants 
it.  However I don't rent, so there are no legal issues with my 
housing.  My city allows for multiple pets in private homes, so even if 
they are both retired/in training I'm still legal.  My state laws have 
provisions for dogs in training. So it works out.

And to answer the question everyone is wondering, I do stick with my 
dogs through thick and thin.  I don't give up easily.  Maybe it's 
nearing the point of insanity, but it's my life and I get to choose.

Julie
http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com


> Umm. This may well put me over my limit. (Can I have banked posts since I haven't posted in ages?) Anyway, yes, what Marion said. If your dog is definitely for sure retired, representing it as anything else seems to me to be unethical, especially in a case where the dog really isn't doing the work anymore.
>
> Having said that, a couple of additional thoughts:
>
> First, when I retired Karl and we rented, our landlord, who was an unusual sort of guy, absolutely knew that Karl was retired, and he let us keep him anyway and didn't charge extra. Sure, I'd have paid it if he had, or made other arrangements if I had to, but I didn't have to, and all the dealings in this regard were completely above board. Just to tell you how unusual Kevin is as a landlord, when we bought our house and left his property, he helped us move. You find me a landlord that would do that.
>
> Second, I also used to think that retirement is retirement is retirement. Now, I think there are certainly cases where retirement can be a bit more fluid than that. Julie, for instance, has two working guides, although her older one likely works a bit less than her younger one nowadays. In my case, Hilde is my everyday guide. However, Leno still wants to go, and he's still capable of doing the job. The reasons for retiring him had to do more with me not wanting to risk him having a seizure too far from home for one, and Hilde needing the work more for another. So when Hilde was ill for a little while, I harnessed up Leno, who was happy for the outing, and he did the job for which he was trained. Yep. I told people that he had come briefly out of retirement. He was good with it, I was good with it, and even though we almost got hit by a truck (it wasn't Leno's fault), he worked well and worked safely. I see no problem with this, but my living situation in regard to what animals I'm allowed to have is pretty flexible, since we own our home.
>
> Naturally, we all have to weigh what's right with what's legal, or put another way, just because you *can* do a thing doesn't mean you *should* do that thing. I'm in no position to judge what other people do with whatever situation they have, and at the end of the day, whatever decisions we make, we have to live with their consequences, unintended or otherwise.
>
> --
> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
> Phone: 814-860-3194
> Mobile: 814-431-0962
> Email: buddy at brannan.name
>
>
>
>
>> On Jun 21, 2017, at 9:17 PM, Cindy Ray via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> I would have to agree with President Gwizdala on this semi-retired business.
>> I had a dog who was retired once in about 2006. I retired him during my
>> first semester at the seminary. I missed him terribly. The school gave me
>> permission to bring him back to stay at the school with me because he had
>> been my companion. I kept him there the rest of the semester, but I learned
>> some interesting and eye-opening things.
>> 1) Since he was retired or even semi-retired, he wouldn't be going to class
>> with me but, rather, would stay in my room. He was not destructive, but this
>> fact alone had totally changed the relationship between him, me, and the
>> school for that matter.
>>
>> 2) If I went to someone's room/apartment because they had a get-together or
>> a party, they could ask me not to bring him, and I would need to comply. It
>> would have been wrong for me to argue this point.
>>
>> 3) There was a pet policy at my seminary. There was a weight limit, and all
>> of the pets had to live in a certain building. I did not live in that
>> building, and my dog was larger than the pet limit by spades no matter where
>> we stayed.
>>
>> 4) People were staying there at the school during the week; then many went
>> home for the weekend. They missed their pets that couldn't come along, and
>> there was a little sense of unfairness about it. It occurred to me just how
>> unfair it was that my dog was there. He wasn't a guide anymore, he was a
>> pet. So I made the decision to leave him at home after about six weeks. It
>> had helped me through a difficult time, but I had risked my relationships
>> with many I think.
>>
>> My current dog is actually retired. One day I had him work me to the
>> dentist, but I didn't hide the fact that he was actually retired. He was in
>> harness doing what he was supposed to do. I used him because with large tree
>> equipment outside I couldn't hear if there was traffic or not. I'm not sure
>> it was ethical for me to do this; I did not lie about who he was, and the
>> dentist regarded him as a guide. This is not something I would make a
>> practice of because I think he either is retired or he isn't. If I were in a
>> situation where pet deposits were required,  I would pay it because Fisher
>> is now a pet. Carrying that further, I suppose I would have to find a new
>> place to live if there was a size limit on the pet or the pet wasn't allowed
>> at all, though if I were in a lease situation I might negotiate a
>> satisfactory way to deal with the remainder of the lease, depending on the
>> terms of it.
>>
>> Cindy Lou Ray
>> cindyray at gmail.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of NAGDU President
>> via NAGDU
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 7:10 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>> Cc: NAGDU President <blind411 at verizon.net>
>> Subject: [NAGDU] Ethics, Law, & Your Public Comments: Was Retired Dogs &
>> Rent
>>
>> 	In graduate school I was required to take a course in ethics. The
>> professor defined ethics as "compliance with the unenforceable". I believe
>> this is as much a matter of ethics as it is a matter of law. In my opinion,
>> taking advantage of the law by calling a retired service dog "semi retired"
>> is unethical, as well as illegal.  How is this different than those who take
>> advantage of the law that provides us access to places of public
>> accommodation with our service dog by misrepresenting their pet as a service
>> dog? It is no different when we call our retired service dog semi retired in
>> order to avoid paying a pet deposit. Folks, we can't have it both ways! We
>> cannot ask for those who misrepresent their pets as service dogs to not do
>> so if we are willing to act the same way.
>>
>> 	I also want to remind everyone that this list is publicly archived
>> on the internet. What you say and how you represent yourself is here for the
>> entire world to read. If you are willing to compromise your integrity by
>> suggesting someone act in a manner contrary to ethics and law, you are
>> telling the world a lot about yourself. Is this the way you want others to
>> think of you?
>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National Federation of
>> the Blind
>> (813) 626-2789
>> President at NAGDU.ORG
>>
>>
>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
>> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
>> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind  people
>> and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what holds
>> you back.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jordan Gallacher
>> via NAGDU
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 6:04 PM
>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>> Cc: Jordan Gallacher
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Retired Dogs & Rent
>>
>> Here is what my instructor said about that.  Semi retire the dog since you
>> can have two service animals with no problems.  That is what I would do.
>> Jordan
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Nancy VanderBrink
>> via NAGDU
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 4:32 PM
>> To: Nancy VanderBrink via Nagdu
>> Cc: Nancy VanderBrink
>> Subject: [NAGDU] Retired Dogs & Rent
>>
>> Hey folks,
>> So a question was asked on a group i follow and wondered what you guys knew.
>>
>> So, if you're renting either a house or apartment with your current guide.
>> I'm going to assume you're not paying a pet fee.
>>
>> Folks that have done this before, after you retire your guide; do you have
>> to pay a pet fee if you keep your guide, do you have to then pay a pet fee?
>>
>> Just curious to know what you've experienced.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Nancy
>>
>> Please forgive the typos as this message was most likely generated using
>> voice dictation Nancy Irwin
>>
>>
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