[NAGDU] Eye Dog Foundation and Random other school? was, Fidelco, was, Criminal background check

Lyn Gwizdak gwizdaklyn at gmail.com
Thu Jun 22 16:50:10 UTC 2017


Hi Heather,
Thank you for your detailed and respectful post about Fidelco. I had a
friend who got her dogs from them. I had met Mrs Kamas during a visit there
in 1998. John Byfield was also there. That's a shame things have changed
for the worse there. I hadn't heard Eye Dog is coming back. I went there in
1995 and got a good dog. I had to give up that dog because of a shoulder
injury that took me a year to recover from. By then I went to TSE because I
needed a softer, light-pulling dog. I got a Lab then.

Lyn and Aristotle

On Jun 21, 2017 2:04 PM, "Julie Johnson via NAGDU" <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:

> Occupaws does still exist, but they are serving a different audience now.
> There is Custom Canines that is also in Wisconsin.  They are still in
> business and do place guide dogs. They also have an owner trainer academy,
> where you do the training, but they provide structured classes to help keep
> you on track.
>
> KSDS is still in business.  As far as I know they still train guides.  My
> most recent info on them is maybe 2 or 3 years old though.
>
> Noah's Assistance Dogs, here in Nebraska, no longer trains guide dogs.  At
> least they don't publically state that they do.  The one person that I knew
> who had a dog from there now has a dog from GDA.
>
> I am super excited to hear about the changes at Eye Dog Foundation.  I
> currently have little interest in attending a program, but I do like to
> keep the possibilities tucked in the back of my head for future
> consideration.  If they continue with their current tragectory they could
> really be a very modern program.
>
> Julie
> http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com
>
>
>
> sort of half mentioned Eye Dog because it was there, but pretty low
> profile, then there was a scandle, then it was sort of gone, or dormant,
> and now its back in some way, shape or form. I am glad to hear that it
> seems to be back on its feet, and perhaps better than before? Does anyone
> on list have a dog from Eye Dog Foundation, especially someone who had
> experience with them, pre and post the difficulties they went through? I am
> a hopeless guide dog geek and I find this stuff absolutely fascinating.
> Now, that other school, I've got to find out what that's about. I know of
> some pretty small schools, Gallant Hearts which is very new, and Occupaws
> which may or may not still exist. Would have to do a web search and see how
> they're doing, if they're doing. But I didn't know of a school in
> Washington. Its research time for sure. I know I know way more about guide
> dogs then the sighted public, and I'm pretty well versed among guide dog
> handlers, but I absolutely do not know everything and I love to get new
> information. There is a list of schools I know I need to do more research
> on, including KSDS, which I am wondering if it still exists and if so does
> it still place guide dogs, and Pro Trained Dogs, a program mentioned in the
> book Two Plus Four Equals One. So, yeah, Buddy, thanks for filling me in,
> and list, if anyone has info on Gallant Hearts, Eye Dog Foundation, KSDS,
> Protrain Dogs or knows the name of the school Buddy mentioned in
> Washington, please continue to expand my mind.
>
>> Thanks much.
>>
>> Heather Bird
>> "They came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I
>> wasn't a Communist.
>> Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
>> Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I
>> wasn't a trade unionist.
>> Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a
>> Protestant.
>> Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up." -
>> Martin Niemöller
>> In our diverse society we must never fail to speak up in the face of
>> Human Rights violations lest we be the next targets of such violations.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Buddy Brannan
>> via NAGDU
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 2:44 PM
>> To: NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users
>> Cc: Buddy Brannan
>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Fidelco, was, Criminal background check
>>
>> One small correction:
>>
>> Fidelco is one of *two*, perhaps three, programs that train exclusively
>> GSD's. The other two are a tiny program in Washington State whose name I've
>> forgotten...something like Independence Guide Dogs or some such...and the
>> newly rstructured and growing Eye Dog Foundation in Arizona.
>>
>> One interesting thing of note on the Eye Dog Foundation: I had a nice
>> chat with the person in charge of the puppy kennels, who invited me to go
>> and see their facility the next time I go to Arizona, which is possible
>> since Ih have family there. Anyway, they are a program that seems open to
>> blind trainers. They're not hiring new apprentices now, but they stated
>> very publicly, on their Facebook page, that the perspectives of owner
>> trainers are important and valuable and that they're willing to listen to
>> our input along with others in the field. It's a pretty refreshing change.
>>
>> Sorry, I don't know what their ownership policy is.
>>
>> --
>> Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
>> Phone: 814-860-3194
>> Mobile: 814-431-0962
>> Email: buddy at brannan.name
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jun 21, 2017, at 2:29 PM, Heather Bird via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello, list. As a graduate of Fidelco, I feel compelled to chime in here
>>> with my thoughts on the organization. I should say that for background, I
>>> had dogs from Fidelco from 2006 to 2010, which was around the time that
>>> Mrs.
>>> Caman died and things started to go to hell in a hand basket. I believe
>>> that
>>> John Bifield had already departed at that time as well. First the
>>> positives.
>>>
>>> A. They are the only school training exclusively German Shepherd Dogs,
>>> which
>>> is very important as almost all of the other schools in the country have
>>> discontinued or seriously down-sized their breeding programs for GSDs.
>>> The
>>> Seeing Eye and Fidelco are responsible for keeping GSDs alive as a
>>> guiding
>>> breed in the United States. Yes, some other schools still produce GSDs,
>>> but
>>> not in large numbers. Some schools have re-instituted their GSD breeding
>>> or
>>> tried to re-invigorate and build up their GSD programs in the past few
>>> years, which is great, but the numbers just aren't up yet. So, if you
>>> want
>>> to be guaranteed a GSD, Fidelco is the place to go. Now, Eye Dog
>>> Foundation
>>> sort of collapsed but I've heard from a few people that they are back.
>>> How
>>> strong they are, how the quality of the dogs is at present, whether their
>>> past problems have been overcome, I have no idea. Time will tell, but
>>> they
>>> are a very small program, so can only help the GSD numbers just so much.
>>> Also, given past miss-steps it will take time to see if they are a viable
>>> option for people at this time. I do wish them success as we need more
>>> quality producers of GSD guide dogs. But, case rests, for guaranteed GSDs
>>> you've got Fidelco and maybe, maybe Eye Dog Foundation. Yes, The Seeing
>>> Eye
>>> does produce a large number of quality GSDs, I believe they produce the
>>> most
>>> in our country for a school that produces a variety of breeds, but I'd
>>> have
>>> to look at stats to be entirely accurate.
>>> B. They provide home training. Most on-campus training programs provide
>>> home
>>> training, at some times for some students, but there are two problems. A.
>>> They often have pretty restrictive criteria for doing so. For instance at
>>> TSE you must be a former graduate of theirs to get home training, not
>>> just
>>> be a repeat guide dog handler, but you must be one of their graduates,
>>> even
>>> if you have successfully had home training from Fidelco or Freedom Guide
>>> Dogs before, and you wait a very long time, about as long as you would
>>> for
>>> Freedom or Fidelco. B. Home training is great, on-campus training is
>>> great,
>>> but when a school specializes in one or the other, they are experts at
>>> providing that kind and their ability to provide quality placements in
>>> the
>>> other type which is not their mainstay may not match up. It certainly
>>> could
>>> be as good or better, but there's no telling since that is not their
>>> area of
>>> expertise. I believe that the only two purely home training schools in
>>> the
>>> US at this time are Fidelco and Freedom Guide Dogs.
>>> C. Their dogs are wonderful. They are very intelligent, loyal, beautiful
>>> examples of their breed. Both of my girls from Fidelco were absolutely
>>> brilliant, gorgeous, outstanding dogs. Some people will mention health or
>>> behavioral problems in Fidelco GSDs, but similar problems do crop up in
>>> TSE
>>> shepherds as well, and even more so in the breeding programs at other
>>> schools where they are just now beginning to re-instate or to revitalize
>>> their flagging GSD breeding. So, personally, I think that TSE has the
>>> best
>>> shepherd lines Fidelco has a close second, Eye Dog Foundation is as of
>>> yet
>>> unknown and relatively untested after their recent return to the scene,
>>> and
>>> the other school's lines are hit or miss but are on their way to
>>> improving.
>>> For which  I am very grateful, BTW, because more quality GSDs available
>>> in
>>> our country is a wonderful thing.
>>> D. Their trainers are absolutely amazing. I have had unfortunate
>>> experiences
>>> with some of the Fidelco staff but never with a trainer. Every Fidelco
>>> trainer I have ever met or worked with was comparable in respectfulness,
>>> competence and knowledge to my favorite Seeing Eye trainers. The great
>>> thing
>>> about home training is lots of one-on-one time with your trainer and the
>>> terrible thing is also lots of that one-on-one time. If you like your
>>> trainer and work well with them, then it is heaven, if you do not get
>>> along
>>> well, then it is hell. I was lucky to have great working relationships
>>> with
>>> all of my Fidelco trainers. Now, I counsel caution regarding their
>>> policies,
>>> and what you say and how you say it to various staff members such as
>>> office
>>> staff, board members, etc., but the trainers themselves are absolutely
>>> great. I have met and or worked with 6 of their trainers, so that's a
>>> good-sized sampling for a relatively small school. However there was a
>>> lot
>>> of staff turn-over, which brings me to the list of cons.
>>>
>>> A. The trainer who placed me with Drew retired, was fired, laid off, I'm
>>> not
>>> sure, in September after placing a dog with me in July or August, and
>>> they
>>> did not re-assign her cell or change the greeting on the voice mail so I
>>> left her messages requesting assistance not knowing that she was no
>>> longer
>>> there. That January another trainer came to do a placement with a dog
>>> that
>>> she and I mutually decided was not a good match, and by the time I was
>>> placed with Paisley in summer of 2007, that trainer was gone, again, for
>>> what reason I do not know. I do know two of the trainers that I met are
>>> still there today and the other two I am unsure of as to whether they are
>>> still there. The head of graduate services also sort of disappeared from
>>> the
>>> scene around the time I was retiring Paisley and I think that his
>>> departure
>>> had something to do with my unsuccessful reapplication to Fidelco for a
>>> successor. So yeah, high staff turnover, can be especially is rough, when
>>> the trainers are one of the best things about the school.
>>> B. Lack of transparency. They never had as good transparency as TSE, but
>>> it
>>> used to be much better. Example, their model of puppy raiser contact
>>> used to
>>> be great, I think preferable to TSE's current, no contact policy or other
>>> school's full and encouraged contact policy. They would ask the raiser
>>> and
>>> the grad if they wanted contact, and if both did, then they exchanged
>>> information and the grad and raiser could take it from there, if either
>>> party did not wish it, then there was not an exchange. However, this
>>> policy
>>> has now been changed to mirror TSE's policy of no raiser contact at all.
>>> Other examples, great and small abound of how the transparency of the
>>> organization has decreased over the past two decades, especially after
>>> Mrs.
>>> Caman's passing.
>>> C. Problems with placements. It is going to sound contradictory no matter
>>> how I try to explain it. After all, Fidelco is the reason I am now so
>>> devoted to GSDs. People have asked me "Heather, if you had problems with
>>> your GSDs, then why the heck are you so dedicated to the breed?" I guess
>>> what I can say is heartfelt but a bit circular or incomprehensible, and
>>> it
>>> is this "Look if I could have so many problems with my Fidelco GSDs and
>>> still be absolutely in love with the breed, then there must just be
>>> something very special about the breed and or, among the things Fidelco
>>> is
>>> doing wrong, they must also be doing many things right." Beyond that I
>>> cannot explain it. The first dog they gave me had an over-active
>>> prey/herding drive and she started nipping at people in a herding, not an
>>> attacking fashion and had to be retired. They took her to the school,
>>> worked
>>> with her, then returned her to me and she nipped someone the next day
>>> and I
>>> called the trainer who had left only hours before and said "Look, you
>>> need
>>> to come and get her right now, because University Police is at my door
>>> and
>>> I'm not turning her over to them or animal control, but you need to come
>>> and
>>> take possession of her right now for her sake." It was a minor nip that
>>> left
>>> a red mark, but did not break the skin. It was very traumatic as there
>>> was
>>> not much time to say goodbye, and due to being away at college, retiring
>>> her
>>> to my mom's house was not a viable option either. The school kept saying
>>> "It's not your fault. You are doing everything right." Which is not a
>>> comfort, let me tell you. I kept saying "Please find something I am doing
>>> wrong, because if I am, then that also means that I can fix, change or
>>> improve it and solve the problem." They brought a dog in the winter but
>>> she
>>> was overwhelmed by large groups of children and I was in the music
>>> education
>>> program to teach elementary school aged children, so the trainer and I
>>> agreed that she was not a good fit for my life, but that she could
>>> certainly
>>> serve someone who did not have to deal with such large numbers of kids
>>> on a
>>> daily basis. In the summer, one year after I got Drew, I was given
>>> Paisley.
>>> She was a great dog and worked for two years. She began to bond with my
>>> husband, despite the fact that he never fed or watered or relieved or
>>> groomed her. He did not walk her or play with her. He had very limited
>>> contact with her, just saying hi to her and sometimes scratching her
>>> behind
>>> the ears if she was on the couch with the two of us. However, Paisley was
>>> very observant, empathic and sweet. She picked up on his PTSD and decided
>>> that he needed her help more than I did. If we worked with him around at
>>> all, she would go crazy to try and stay near him, would get distracted
>>> from
>>> her guiding and follow him, refuse to turn and go a different way from
>>> him,
>>> look at traffic reacting to mini vans like the one that Jim drove. If we
>>> were out without him she was fine, accept that in our neighborhood she
>>> would
>>> keep trying to take me home. The trainer who came told me that I had let
>>> Jim
>>> pay too much attention to her, even though this was absolutely not the
>>> case.
>>> I do get that this must happen sometimes with some negligent handlers who
>>> flout the rules, but I had not done that at all. In hind sight, what I
>>> should have done was retire her, retrain her as Jim's Psychiatric service
>>> dog then apply to another school for a successor for myself. At that time
>>> the ownership policy would have allowed this, but obviously now, it does
>>> not. But I didn't know about psych dogs for PTSD and so I returned her to
>>> the school. I think that had Jim had his own psych dog when I got
>>> Paisley,
>>> she would not have felt the need to take care of him. I think it started
>>> one
>>> time when Jim hit the deck and took cover under a bench when fireworks
>>> went
>>> off. My mom and I and baby Jeremy were in the van on the side of the road
>>> when Jim went to retrieve a cooler from the place we had accidentally
>>> left
>>> it. He was out of the van a ways away, near the beach when the fireworks
>>> started going off. We could not just stay on the road like that and I was
>>> worried about Jim. So, I had Paisley go and find Jim. She lead me to him,
>>> where he was unresponsive under a bench. I think that flipped a switch
>>> for
>>> her that he needed help and she was going to help him. Every time I asked
>>> her to ignore him, or to work for me and not for him, when he was around
>>> just caused her anxiety and frustration. There was nothing I could have
>>> done
>>> to make her a viable guide for me, and nothing I did to cause this
>>> problem,
>>> but the first two trainers who had worked with me were not there to
>>> advocate
>>> for me. The graduate rep. was also gone or on his way out so he couldn't
>>> help either. I went through an appellate process when denied a successor
>>> and
>>> had to write explanatory letters when they would not even clarify what
>>> their
>>> reasons were fore denying my application. Had I or Fidelco known more
>>> about
>>> PTSD or psychiatric service dogs in 2010 this situation would not have
>>> turned out the way it did. Neither of my dogs from TSE ever had this
>>> problem, partly because Jim already had his own psych dog at that point,
>>> partly because I made TSE aware of Jim's PTSD, and partly because I was
>>> even
>>> more paranoid about keeping the dogs at a distance from Jim. When I first
>>> brought each home I told Jim not to make eye contact, or to pet them on
>>> any
>>> occasion for several months and to minimize even saying their names. I do
>>> think it will feel very good to see Fidelco reps at convention and have
>>> them
>>> see how I am successfully working GSDs from the Seeing Eye, who trusts
>>> and
>>> believes in and communicates with me in a way that Fidelco could not or
>>> would not.
>>>
>>> Bottom line? I would recommend Fidelco to some people in some situations,
>>> but overall I have strong reservations. I love Fidelco in many ways and I
>>> really hope that they can change some of their policies and rebound to
>>> where
>>> they used to be in terms of quality when the Camans were still alive. I
>>> harbor no ill will and very much want to see them continue as a school,
>>> to
>>> thrive and flourish and improve, because I believe in their mission,
>>> their
>>> dogs and their trainers, and I don't want to see them disappear or to
>>> continue as they are.
>>>
>>> PS, when I got my dogs the ownership contract was not as good as the
>>> Seeing
>>> Eye, but it wasn't as bad as it is now, either. Additionally, I did not
>>> have
>>> to undergo any background check of any kind. I had to submit references
>>> and
>>> such, but that is standard operating procedure at any responsible
>>> training
>>> program.
>>>
>>> Heather Bird
>>> "They came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I
>>> wasn't
>>> a Communist.
>>> Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a
>>> Jew.
>>> Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I
>>> wasn't a trade unionist.
>>> Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a
>>> Protestant.
>>> Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up." -
>>> Martin Niemöller
>>> In our diverse society we must never fail to speak up in the face of
>>> Human
>>> Rights violations lest we be the next targets of such violations.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of NAGDU
>>> President
>>> via NAGDU
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 9:40 AM
>>> To: 'NAGDU Mailing List, the National Association of Guide Dog Users'
>>> Cc: NAGDU President
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Criminal background check
>>>
>>> Dan,
>>>
>>>         I agree with you and have asked Fidelco for more information. I
>>> am
>>> very doubtful, though, we will get an answer to my inquiry, since Fidelco
>>> believes, as stated by their Chief Operating Officer, Julie Unwinn, that
>>> we
>>> do not deserve answers to our inquiries nor input into their policies
>>> since
>>> we do not pay for the services they provide. We are only the
>>> beneficiaries
>>> of such services paid for by their assertions that they help the blind.
>>> Their convoluted arguments reflect the arrogance of their CEO, Eliot
>>> Russman.
>>>
>>>         While doing a little more research on this issue, I found a very
>>> interesting website with numerous comments from past employees about the
>>> corporate culture of Fidelco. You may want to take a look for yourselves!
>>>
>>> https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Fidelco-Guide-Dog-Foundati
>>> on-Reviews-E6546
>>> 08.htm
>>>
>>> Fraternally yours,
>>> Marion
>>>
>>> Marion Gwizdala, President
>>> National Association of Guide Dog Users Inc. (NAGDU) National Federation
>>> of
>>> the Blind
>>> (813) 626-2789
>>> President at NAGDU.ORG
>>>
>>>
>>> The National Federation of the Blind knows that blindness is not the
>>> characteristic that defines you or your future. Every day we raise
>>> expectations because low expectations create barriers between blind
>>> people
>>> and our dreams. You can live the life you want! Blindness is not what
>>> holds
>>> you back.
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: NAGDU [mailto:nagdu-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Dan Weiner
>>> via
>>> NAGDU
>>> Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2017 10:29 PM
>>> To: Alana Leonhardy via NAGDU
>>> Cc: Dan Weiner
>>> Subject: Re: [NAGDU] Criminal background check
>>>
>>> I don't know, guys,is it really necessary, I mean, unless a school can
>>> tell
>>> me or convince me that they've had problem with people with criminal
>>> records
>>> in enough cases that this is warranted, I would be very hesitant to just
>>> buy
>>> in to that type of reasoning.
>>>
>>> So let's see, all  do you need a criminal background check to receive
>>> services for the blind? What about other comparable services, yes I
>>> know, it
>>> all boils down to the argument about what you're allowed to ask if you
>>> are
>>> providing a service and ultimately it comes back to the same type of
>>> arguments we hear about ownership, to give ownership or not to give
>>> ownership.  If it were up to me, NAGDU and GDUI would be asking Fidelco
>>> why
>>> this is so necessary.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6/18/2017 10:08 PM, Alana Leonhardy via NAGDU wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi, all,
>>>> First off, if a school is going to require a background check, they
>>>>
>>> absolutely need to use a fully accessible website.
>>>
>>>> On the issue itself, I think background checks are fine for a couple
>>>> of
>>>>
>>> reasons. I agree with some previous posters that having a criminal record
>>> should not automatically disqualify someone from being accepted to
>>> training...and if that's how some schools are doing things, then that's a
>>> big problem. I think that, with some acceptions for various serious
>>> crimes,
>>> things need to be looked at on a case by case basis.
>>>
>>>> That being said, the safety of the dog isn't the only thing that needs
>>>> to
>>>>
>>> be taken in to account. There are also the other student's to consider.
>>> For
>>> example, a person convicted of rape may be a fine dog handler, but it
>>> wouldn't be fair to potentially put the other students in danger
>>> regardless
>>> of how well that person may be able to work a guide dog.
>>>
>>>> Alana
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 18, 2017, at 07:03, Tracy Carcione via NAGDU
>>>>> <nagdu at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> A friend of mine is applying to Fidelco, and he had to undergo a
>>>>> criminal background check as part of the application process.
>>>>> Fidelco told him the IGDF is recommending that all schools add the
>>>>> check.  He also said the website Fidelco used for his part of the
>>>>> check wasn't really accessible, and he had to have a sighted person
>>>>> fill
>>>>>
>>>> out the form for him.
>>>
>>>> Just thought I'd share.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tracy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>
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