[NAGDU] Risk Assessment Scale, Absolutely No School Bashing contained within,

Julie Johnson julielj402 at gmail.com
Mon May 22 11:00:03 UTC 2017


I love this tool!  Thanks so much for creating and sharing it!  I score 
in the mid to upper 20's...it's early and I haven't finished my first 
cup of coffee so math is not my strong suit right now. *smile*   I'm 
also a long, long way from thinking about a new dog and whether or not 
I'll attend a program for that dog.

Anyway, I did want to add one thought to this excellent tool. Consider 
how your life might change to include things that you do not currently 
participate in.  I'm thinking in particular about sporting events, 
marches, concerts, bars etc.  If you are a young person living at home 
or just getting ready to go off to college, your life can look very 
different than it does now in just a couple of years.  I live in a very 
small town that simply does not have some of these things as an option 
for me to participate in. I have no plans of moving, but life happens.  
Might I want to do some of these things in the future?  Perhaps, and I 
do think I'd like to have the option of working my dog if I felt it 
appropriate.

Julie
http://www.guide-and-service-dogs.com



On 5/22/2017 1:06 AM, Daryl via NAGDU wrote:
> This is a very thorough assessment tool. Depending on how I choose to view it, my score would probably be somewhere between 26 and 30. I'm half asleep, so my math could be wrong. In any case, it does tell me the type of school I would need to attend and that ownership does need to be a consideration with a successor dog. :-) thank you for this very thorough tool. :-)
>
> On May 21, 2017 10:31:46 PM MDT, Heather Bird via NAGDU <nagdu at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>>     Hi, Brenda and list. Well, I want to talk about low and high risks
>> related to ownership policies. I am not going to bash any school or to
>> debate whether ownership is a deal breaker issue, because for some
>> people it is and for some it is not. What I want to do is to give you a
>>
>> rough outline of a scale you can use to look at how the situation of a
>> theoretical handler might increase or decrease their risk for an issue
>> of repossession of a guide taking place. You need not feel compelled to
>>
>> share your answers with the list, but it might be helpful to you or to
>> other listers.
>>
>>
>> So, let's assume a few things and then consider them. A. You are a
>> perfect handler, who receives the perfect dog, from a school who is
>> always fair. In that case, ownership would matter only in the
>> theoretical realm of blindness philosophy, but logistically it wouldn't
>>
>> make any difference to the team. However, no handler, dog, team or
>> school is perfect. Next scenario. B. You are a great handler with a dog
>>
> >from  a not very reasonable school. There is some risk, but not too
>> much
>> if the handler plays by the rules. C. You are not a very competent or
>> compliant handler, but your school is also not a very vigilant or
>> punitive school, and so, no issues related to repossession of the dog
>> are likely to arise. Finally, D. You are a substandard handler from a
>> very aware and parental school. You are almost certain to encounter
>> trouble. . As no school is perfect, every single school will on
>> occasion
>> be unfair to a handler, just as at every school there will be some
>> handlers who screw up, that is life and the law of averages. I know of
>> at least one handler from the following schools who has shared with me
>> that they have had a dog taken back, where, if they are being truthful,
>>
>> I absolutely feel that the school was in the wrong, in whole or in
>> part:
>> GDB, GEB, Fidelco, GDD, GDF, UGDA (note, no longer exists) GDT. I know
>> of at least one case of a handler engaging in handling and treatment of
>>
>> the dog that I do think should have warranted repossession of the dog,
>> again, if they were being truthful, in which the school did nothing at
>> the following schools: GEB, GDF, GDB, GDD, Eye Dog Foundation, UGDA (no
>>
>> longer exists) and Freedom Guide Dogs. Out of all of the schools in the
>>
>> country I would recommend the Seeing Eye as your absolute best bet for
>> avoiding the pitfalls that can come from a school's ownership policies.
>>
>> I would say that Freedom is also a fairly low risk. I would say that
>> Fidelco and GDB would be one of your highest risk schools and all of
>> the
>> rest fall somewhere in the middle of the risk spectrum in terms of
>> their
>> history of repossessing dogs for both valid and invalid reasons. These
>> are not at all quality statements regarding the worth of either the
>> dogs
>> or the training programs.  I am simply speaking to the issue of
>> likelihood of a dog being removed from the handler's care by the
>> school.
>> But, it is very important that you first figure out how much of a risk
>> you face for an ownership policy to become troublesome for you as a
>> handler. See below:
>>
>>
>> I would suggest that you prioritize or not, the aspect of the ownership
>>
>> policy in your decision making process based on how great of a risk you
>>
>> face for potentially upsetting your school. Now, I am not talking about
>>
>> harming, neglecting, beating or otherwise misusing or mistreating the
>> dog, as A. you would not do that, and B. those would be reasonable
>> grounds for your dog to be taken away. What I am talking about are the
>> factors that often cause schools to take punitive action. Here is a
>> list
>> that is by no means exhaustive. See how many you check off, and then
>> decide based upon that how important an ownership policy is for you in
>> your personal situations. Each item has a number after it. Add up your
>> points at the end and calculate your score, then look at the rough idea
>>
>> scoring guide. In each group of three, please only select one option,
>> or
>> if you don't ever fit any of those categories, then put down a zero. I
>> will give you my score at the end. These are only examples and not at
>> all value judgements about you or any other lister. They are guidelines
>>
>> based on what some schools have the potential to freak out about. Every
>>
>> school is different, every trainer or administrator is different, and
>> schools can change over time improving or declining, so, keep that in
>> mind.
>>
>>
>> A.
>>
>> You intend to feed your dog a raw diet, either the BARF method or the
>> prey model diet, 5,
>>
>> You intend to feed your dog a home cooked diet composed of cooked meat,
>>
>> eggs, grains and or vegetables and vitamin supplements, 3,
>>
>> You intend to switch your dog off of the school's brand to an organic,
>> human grade or grain free dry dog food, 1,
>>
>>
>> B.
>>
>> You intend to cross train your dog to perform tasks to mitigate a
>> secondary disability that you might have such as adding medical alert
>> tasks, psychiatric service, etc, 5,
>>
>> You intend to add extensive additional training to enhance your guide
>> dog's work, clicker training, target training, specialized find
>> commands, running with your dog, retrieval tasks, etc, 3,
>>
>> You intend to make some minor modifications to your dog's command
>> repertoire, such as adding a command to turn about 180 degrees, to find
>>
>> and distinguish between words such as elevator, stairs and escalator,
>> some mild hand targeting to aid in off-leash recall, etc, 1,
>>
>>
>> C.
>>
>> You intend to engage in high intensity dog sports with your dog such as
>>
>> skijuring, agility trials, tracking or hunting or water rescue trials,
>> etc, 5,
>>
>> You intend to engage in some moderate intensity dog sports with your
>> guide such as, fly ball, obedience trials, cross country skiing,
>> walking
>> marathons or half marathons with your dog, 3,
>>
>> You intend to engage in mild sports with your dog, hiking,
>> participation
>> in walks such as 5Ks and 10ks, 1,
>>
>>
>> D.
>>
>> You intend to do tyders before getting any vaccines for your dog, to
>> use
>> only essential oils for flee and tick preventative, to utilize herbal
>> supplements for your dog, or to utilize the services of a veterinary
>> acupuncturist, 5,
>>
>> You intend to use conventional flee and tick preventative in the warm
>> months and essential oils for control in the cold months, to use some
>> nutritional, but not herbal supplements, to use tyders for some
>> vaccines, to minimize the use of antibiotics in many situations, you
>> use
>> the services of an accupressurist, but not an acupuncturist, 3,
>>
>> You intend to give all vaccines but to spread them out to separate
>> visits, you will give flee and tick preventative year round, but you
>> will separate it from the heart worm preventative by one week, you use
>> organic grooming products, you engage in canine massage,
>>
>>
>> E.
>>
>> You order and use an alternative harness such as one sold by On the Go
>> or Paw Power Creations, switch from a chain collar to a pinch collar or
>>
>> a simple buckle collar, you have your dog where a light weight back
>> pack
>> to carry some of their own supplies, you dress your dog up in a full on
>>
>> costume for Halloween, 5,
>>
>> You decline the booties the school issues and use Mushers' Secret
>> instead, you use the school's harness but add harness signs and
>> pouches,
>> you switch from a chain collar to a toggle collar or a martingale
>> collar, you put t-shirts and other things on your dog to help remote
>> causes and fund raisers important to you, 3,
>>
>> You regularly put decorative bandanas on your dog, you use a designer
>> leash rather than the school's leash, you get a really flashy fun
>> collar
>> tag, 1,
>>
>>
>> F.
>>
>> You regularly participate in marches, protests, march in gay pride
>> parades or other potentially controversial demonstrations, such as
>> right
>> to life or right to choose, 5,
>>
>> You occasionally attend marches and protests, but they are not frequent
>>
>> and are on the tame to moderate side, 3,
>>
>> You rarely, but sometimes attend controversial lectures, art
>> exhibitions, seminars, etc, 1,
>>
>>
>> G.
>>
>> You have a spouse, adult parent or child living with you who has
>> intensive special needs which can sometimes include violent outbursts
>> or
>> intense bouts of yelling or screaming, even if you have safe plans and
>> management stratagies to use, 5,
>>
>> You have a very hecktic life with one or more individuals in it who can
>>
>> become disruptive or potentially upsetting to your dog, 3,
>>
>> You occasionally visit relatives or cliants who might have some of the
>> challenges described in the first two options, 1,
>>
>>
>> H.
>>
>> You belong to a minority group that often faces descrimination, LGBTQ,
>> especially trans gendered individuals, individual with a green card but
>>
>> not full citizenship in the United States, are a member of a
>> polyamerous
>> relationship, etc, you belong to a highly controversial organization or
>>
>> political party, in which you working your dog might be noticed in
>> public or in publicity, such as the KKK, the communist party, the
>> socialist party, the Nazi party, (yes, these extremely contraversicial
>> political parties are legally allowed to exist and legally allowed to
>> peacefully demonstrate, so I mention it, because the blind are not
>> universaly "good" "inocent" or "well behaved" as many sighted
>> steroytypes would portray us) 5,
>>
>> You are a member of a less controversial minority group, seventh day
>> Adventist, strict Islam, orthodox Judaism, racial minority, etc, you
>> belong to a group that your school is moderately likely to object to
>> your being publicly engaged with while working your dog, PETA, Green
>> Peace, the Tea Party, etc, , the occupy movement, 3,
>>
>> You belong to some organizations which your school might object to your
>>
>> appearing in the literature or promotional materials with your dog,
>> such
>> as, NFB, ACB, La Leche League, Gay Strait Alliance, Black Lives Matter,
>>
>> etc, 1,
>>
>>
>> I.
>>
>> You evaluate your schools advice, conduct research, and often make
>> decisions that contradict the advice given in lectures, such as opting
>> to give squeak toys, with close supervision, you will not give raw
>> hide,
>> but you think that elk antlers are acceptable, you wish to use another
>> heart worm preventative than what the school gives you, you ignore
>> advice not to play tug with your dog, never to take them to a dog park,
>>
>> never ever to give your dog people food, etc, and if your school
>> challenged you, you would counter, respectfully, with research that
>> supports your choice and expect to be able to have a reasonable and
>> civil debate about the issue, and would most likely continue with your
>> practice if you truly felt that you were in the right, 5,
>>
>> You occasionally do something different from what your school told you
>> to do, but it is not all across the board and if your school asked you
>> to stop, yew would be willing to do so, but you would expect to be
>> heard
>> out as to your reasoning and not to be penalized, 3,
>>
>> You rarely do things at odds with your schools advice, but you do not
>> follow their guide lines to the letter and if asked to comply you would
>>
>> do so right away and with apologies to the school, 1,
>>
>>
>> J.
>>
>> You take your dog to very stressful environments, thoughtfully,
>> carefully and knowledgeably, such as parades, amusement parks, Time
>> Square on New Years, brothels in places where this is legal, to watch a
>>
>> space shuttle launch, fire works displays at a distance, or at the
>> event
>> with ear protection for the dog, hiking in truly remote wilderness
>> areas, white water rafting, 5,
>>
>> You take your dog into situations such as dangerous inner city
>> neighborhoods, crowded festivals, to dog shows as a spectator, into
>> jails or psychiatric wards, rock concerts, strip clubs, adult book or
>> toy stores,etc, 3,
>>
>> You take your dog to, cruise ships, musical theater performances with
>> very loud music, theater performances with fake violence, gun shots,
>> smoke and strobe light effects, bars, especially controversial bars
>> such
>> as gay bars or biker bars, 1,
>>
>>
>> There are ten groups, so your maximum score could be 50, your minimum
>> score could be 0, a low risk person might have a score of around 10 to
>> 20, a very, very low risk would be a score of 0 to 10. A moderate risk
>> handler might have a score of 20 to 35 and a high risk handler might
>> have a score of 35 to 50. My score is 40. What puts me into this
>> category? Things like having a spouse with PTSD who is never violent
>> but
>> who can yell a lot and rarely engages in behaviors like hitting a wall
>> or slamming a door, using a harness made by On The Go, not my school's
>> harness, feeding a raw diet, being a woman who unashamedly breastfeeds
>> in public with my guide laying at my feet, teaching extensive
>> additional
>> commands, although not cross training my dog for other disabilities,
>> walking 5ks with my dog and fully intending to acclimatize her and I
>> and
>> try to walk a marathon or half marathon with her, marching in protests,
>>
>> attending parades or a fireworks display from an increased distance,
>> and
>> also with ear protection for the dog, and so on.
>>
>>
>> For me personally, an ownership policy is one of the most important
>> issues. If you scored 50? Then not considering ownership would be truly
>>
>> foolish, but that is a true extreme, and I highly doubt that you would
>> score a 50. If you score a 0, then rest assured that your risk is
>> virtually non-existent, and aside from any philosophical objections you
>>
>> might have, the functional reality for you makes ownership a non-issue.
>>
>> Again, I highly doubt that you scored a 0. You can do this on your own,
>>
>> think about your score, and certainly any other factors I may have
>> missed, then you can decide for you personally whether the ownership is
>>
>> a thing or not, and either way, you must do what is right for you. So,
>> I'm not debating the ownership question. For me personally it is
>> supremely important, it might also wind up being a crucial point for
>> you, or it might be a virtual non-issue. However, you should not rule
>> it
>> out as a potentially crucial factor until and unless you have assessed
>> your risk for encountering difficulties with your school based on who
>> you are, how you live, what you do, how you handle your dog, what
>> challenges you face, etc.
>>
>>
>> I hope twas helpful.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 5/19/2017 12:36 PM, Brenda via NAGDU wrote:
>>
>>> Hello List,
>>>
>>> this week my pet dog Sadie passed over the rainbow bridge.  She was
>> 15
>>> years old and we had a wonderful life together. She is playing with
>>> her cat sisters who have gone before her. I will miss her and am
>> still
>>> sad, but she is no longer suffering so I'm at peace.
>>>
>>> As my vision waned over the years, I became more and more interested
>>> in getting a guide dog, but sadie who was an APL rescue didn't like
>>> other dogs. I did get O&m training to maintain my independence and
>>> have been using my skills and now I am ready to apply for a guide.
>>>
>>> I have been surfing the guide dog school websites and reading posts
>>> from here and elsewhere about different guide dog schools and am now
>>> trying to sort things out.
>>>
>>> Several schools at the top of my list do not grant full ownership.
>>> This concerns me, but other than that I like the schools.  One school
>>> that does grant ownership is in California.  I live in Ohio and don't
>>> want to be on a plane for a long time.  that may be silly, but I
>> can't
>>> get over it.
>>>
>>> So...I would appreciate Listers input/opinions/guidance/thoughts on
>> my
>>> situation.
>>>
>>> the school I really like is Guiding eyes for the Blind.  They do not
>>> grant ownership at all, but I have not heard/read  anything negative
>>> about them. I doubt they are in business to develop teams only to
>> take
>>> the dog away.
>>>
>>> My intent is not to debate ownership issues.  I want to learn
>> Listers'
>>> experiences with nonownership schools with the focus on GEB.
>>>
>>> Thanks for any input.
>>>
>>> Brenda
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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